| What's "wrong" with Christianity? 20:17 - Aug 3 with 37255 views | Davillin |
What's "wrong" with Christianity?
N.B. In my opinion, it's not what's "wrong" with Christianity, but rather what's wrong with certain dismissive analyses of Christianity.
Everything that's "wrong" with Christianity is not about Christ and his teaching, but is about matters tangential to his teaching.
First and foremost, the Old Testament. Eliminate all of it and all of the hate-filled attacks on the thousands of sometimes imaginary and sometimes at least partly imaginary, and this would be a quieter place, and a quieter message board.
Second, eliminate all of the mythical elements like angels singing on high, and three wise men, and immaculate conception, and virgin birth, etc, etc, etc.
Third, eliminate all of the happy horsesh!t that goes on within the formalized churches -- especially the Catholic Church -- everything from fanciful non-Biblical embellishments and sometimes exceedingly silly rules and dogma, to long-past historical peccadilloes and worse, long-past political, economic, and military outrages.
Fourth, eliminate all of the excesses in wealth, ostentatious wealth, and pseudo regal trappings.
Fifth, do not be put off by Christ's speaking of Heaven and Hell, and the Father, but remember that these are images fully understood by his unsophisticated audience as images of one kind or another, and are not granite-hard reality.
Not one of the things I describe above has anything significant to do with either Christ or his teachings. When you ignore or eliminate all of those things, you will have the freedom to get to the heart of his teaching.
Although you can be richly rewarded by searching through the New Testament, reading all of the red typeface (which is a standard indication of the words of Christ), you really need go no further than the Sermon on the Mount, where, in essence, he gives an explication of The Ten Commandments, which alone give anyone who wants it a guide to a moral life.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-5_7/
The "pixies and fairies" so beloved of those who wish to denigrate either the Bible, religion itself, or just Christianity, were put in there as a means of explaining astoundingly complex concepts to people who were completely ill-equipped to understand them without these "teaching aids."
Anyone who is, or pretends to be, intelligent and well-read, should know to move immediately beyond these images and get to the heart of the teaching.
I not only admit, but trumpet aloud, the fact that it is far too easy to be dismissive based on tangentials, and difficult to get past them to the meaning, and moreover sometimes difficult beyond some persons' intellectual capacity.
In my opinion, it's better simply to not get involved in these discussions than to try to fight against the closed mind, and especially the mind that is closed because of non-essential and inconsequential side issues.
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 11:27 - Aug 10 with 1882 views | exiledclaseboy |
| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 11:09 - Aug 10 by Cottsy |
Facts or widely held beliefs? |
Is there a difference? As you keep quite rightly pointing out, science keeps proving and disproving facts all the time. |  |
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 12:53 - Aug 10 with 1844 views | Cottsy |
| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 11:27 - Aug 10 by exiledclaseboy |
Is there a difference? As you keep quite rightly pointing out, science keeps proving and disproving facts all the time. |
I would argue that there is a fundamental difference, a fact is an end position a belief is a starting position.
Simply put: Belief -> Testing/Observation -> Fact/Not Fact
For example, until roughly 50 years ago there was a widely held belief that the universe was in a steady state, testing and observation showed that this wasn't the case establishing the fact that the universe is expanding in all directions as predicted by the big bang theory.
I wouldn't say that I've been pointing out that science proves and disproves facts all the time rather that with more data, more testing, more observation the better our understanding of a subject and that facts do not ever = faith. |  |
| If man evolved from monkeys why do we still have monkeys? |
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 13:00 - Aug 10 with 1838 views | exiledclaseboy |
| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 12:53 - Aug 10 by Cottsy |
I would argue that there is a fundamental difference, a fact is an end position a belief is a starting position.
Simply put: Belief -> Testing/Observation -> Fact/Not Fact
For example, until roughly 50 years ago there was a widely held belief that the universe was in a steady state, testing and observation showed that this wasn't the case establishing the fact that the universe is expanding in all directions as predicted by the big bang theory.
I wouldn't say that I've been pointing out that science proves and disproves facts all the time rather that with more data, more testing, more observation the better our understanding of a subject and that facts do not ever = faith. |
Semantics my friend. Nothing more. Facts change, our perception of what a fact is changes all the time. You've just replaced the word fact with the words "widely held beliefs" to obfuscate the point. You know as well as I do that some things we thought we facts have since been proved not to be so. | |
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 13:16 - Aug 10 with 1819 views | Cottsy |
| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 13:00 - Aug 10 by exiledclaseboy |
Semantics my friend. Nothing more. Facts change, our perception of what a fact is changes all the time. You've just replaced the word fact with the words "widely held beliefs" to obfuscate the point. You know as well as I do that some things we thought we facts have since been proved not to be so. |
I just want to make it clear that I have been talking scientific facts, a clearly defined term.
To say that no facts have ever changed over time is a completely different argument.
I would need to see an example of a fact that has been proven through repeated observation and testing later being proven not to be the case. | |
| If man evolved from monkeys why do we still have monkeys? |
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 13:18 - Aug 10 with 1822 views | exiledclaseboy |
| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 13:16 - Aug 10 by Cottsy |
I just want to make it clear that I have been talking scientific facts, a clearly defined term.
To say that no facts have ever changed over time is a completely different argument.
I would need to see an example of a fact that has been proven through repeated observation and testing later being proven not to be the case. |
Then we appear to have been having different conversations. | |
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 14:52 - Aug 10 with 1798 views | DJack |
| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 13:18 - Aug 10 by exiledclaseboy |
Then we appear to have been having different conversations. |
Which, to be fair, has been a major issue on this thread. Posters have different interpretations of certain words/phrases which is hampering the "debate". |  |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 15:01 - Aug 10 with 1795 views | exiledclaseboy |
| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 14:52 - Aug 10 by DJack |
Which, to be fair, has been a major issue on this thread. Posters have different interpretations of certain words/phrases which is hampering the "debate". |
Either that or some are wilfully misinterpreting things. | |
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 15:25 - Aug 10 with 1783 views | DJack |
| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 15:01 - Aug 10 by exiledclaseboy |
Either that or some are wilfully misinterpreting things. |
No comment...   | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 15:34 - Aug 10 with 1777 views | Cottsy |
| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 13:18 - Aug 10 by exiledclaseboy |
Then we appear to have been having different conversations. |
Indeed. | |
| If man evolved from monkeys why do we still have monkeys? |
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| What's on 20:05 - Nov 26 with 1536 views | exiledclaseboy |
| What's on 00:20 - Aug 9 by JackoBoostardo |
Thanks for the opinion that I'm a bigot. i'll assume you don't know what it means.
If you take the time to read through this very long thread, you will see I've answered many questions here, including the one you accuse me at being a bigot over.
A small minority you say? It was this small minority that destroy lives on a daily basis through suicide bombings, massacres, and many other things that happen on a daily basis in the name of religion.
I assume you watch the news and current events - and no I don't mean through rags like The Sun, but REAL news? Are you aware of the many people who have died when going about their daily lives in busy shopping districts as the result of suicide bombings in Iraq, of the fear people have to go through in Afghanistan? Or what about London? Or anywhere else in the world where we are affected by this "minority" who do their dirty work in the name of their 'loving' gods. And no, this isn't a bash just against Muslims. For instance, does anyone here remember the Aum Shinrikyo attack on the Tokyo subway which left 13 people dead as a result of Sarin nerve agent?
So when you claim I am a bigot for attacking a minority, you may also want to remember who runs this country! Do you agree with assisted suicide? Well the church doesn't, and it's the church that's most vocal in the debate - and has influence within our law making establishments such as the House Of Lords. Or how about stem cell research which can (and is proven to work) help many thousands of people with all manner of disabilities, ailments and life threatening injuries.
Whereas you claim it's a small 'minority', they seem to be the ones doing the most damage in the name of their all loving, all caring god. You do not need to be a suicide bomber to destroy lives, as simply pushing your religious beliefs on to a populace will suffice.
So, let's look at the other side of the coin, a world without religion. Being someone who's really thought about this in the past (and I mean really concentrated and reviewed a variety of paths) - I can safely and reasonably state that humanity has been set back drastically by religion. The Dark Ages (between the 5th Century and the 15th Century in Europe), was a period where intellectuals were forced underground by the religious establishments and governing leaders. Thinking was a big no, punishable by death. As a result, humanity's progress stalled and stagnated. Yet, if we did not have the repressive religious regime aggressively attacking humanity's natural ability to think, it's reasonable to assume we'd be considerably more advanced than we are over the 10 centuries that had passed due to the dark ages. Who's to say we wouldn't have cured cancer and aids long before now? But we will never know if this will be the case, due to the 'minority'.
So considering I as an atheist am being attacked for apparently "pushing" my views on to others, why do churches and other religions buildings need to advertise ? Why do they need money so badly to buy new homes and swimming pools for the more popular faith healers? Why does it pray on the young, vulnerable and scared? It's simple - it's a shady business run on extorting money from the masses. Remind me again how much value is being sat on in the Vatican? (here's a clue - it's enough to eradicate third world debt five times over!). And what is the purpose of the Vatican? (Here's another clue - it's a visual seat of power and an unnecessary one at that).
This raises questions - As I've been saying throughout this thread - Humanity has evolved. We've learned many things and have accute understanding of people, the world and the universe around us. So why do we still need religion to provide answers - when it does not? Answers are tangible responses to your questions, whereas a call to god is answering yourself. Is it fair to assume that all of mankind's achievements are the result of a god, or mankind? Is it fair to insinuate or otherwise push a belief on to children who have not yet gained the ability to fully comprehend the subject matter?
And then answer this question - If a person came up to you in the street and claimed to be the son of god before performing a little street magic, would you become a believer and spend your life in the worship of "Mark The Magician"? Or in your modern understanding of the world, would you think the guy has issues, but his tricks are okay? This is afterall what differentiates us to more primitive earlier man - who did not have the level of understanding you may have today.
Another thing to consider, lives that could be saved. Unable to accept blood transfusions in life threatening cases, and a refusal to provide organs or blood for those who need it (even after death of the donor).... yup! That's religion for you!
We were born with brains - yet religion subscribes that we do not use these? Sound suspect? [Post edited 9 Aug 2014 0:25]
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This is all quite familiar. [Post edited 26 Nov 2015 20:06]
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 20:52 - Nov 26 with 1497 views | LeonisGod |
| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 11:27 - Aug 10 by exiledclaseboy |
Is there a difference? As you keep quite rightly pointing out, science keeps proving and disproving facts all the time. |
Science isn't a method to prove or disprove facts. It uses facts (which are measurable observations) to explain (prove or disprove) scientific theories.
Facts are measurable, verifiable and repeatable observations.
Scientific theories are explanations for phenomena backed up by facts. Which is why they can be disproved if new facts (observations become available as technology develops).
Beliefs are something completely different. For the holder, they don't need to be proved or disproved. They have nothing to do with the scientific method and are not mutually exclusive (which is why scientists can believe in God - in their work as scientists they deal in theories and facts, in their belief of God they don't use those things but rely on faith/belief instead). |  | | |
| What's on 20:53 - Nov 26 with 1496 views | Neath_Jack |
| What's on 20:05 - Nov 26 by exiledclaseboy |
This is all quite familiar. [Post edited 26 Nov 2015 20:06]
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That's is a quality bump in fairness.
Bravo. |  |
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| What's on 20:56 - Nov 26 with 1490 views | exiledclaseboy |
| What's on 20:53 - Nov 26 by Neath_Jack |
That's is a quality bump in fairness.
Bravo. |
Been bugging me for ages what the crazy mofo's last incarnation was. If I could be arsed I'd look for the post where he stomped off in a huff vowing never to return. From what I remember it was all my fault. [Post edited 26 Nov 2015 20:57]
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| What's on 21:01 - Nov 26 with 1480 views | Loyal |
| What's on 20:56 - Nov 26 by exiledclaseboy |
Been bugging me for ages what the crazy mofo's last incarnation was. If I could be arsed I'd look for the post where he stomped off in a huff vowing never to return. From what I remember it was all my fault. [Post edited 26 Nov 2015 20:57]
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As someone who has watched this forum from afar I would say you start most issues on here and are the cause of many people leaving this forum.
You should be banned. |  |
| Nolan sympathiser, clout expert, personal friend of Leigh Dineen, advocate and enforcer of porridge swallows.
The official inventor of the tit w@nk. | | Poll: | Who should be Swansea number 1 |
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| What's on 21:31 - Nov 26 with 1465 views | exiledclaseboy |
| What's on 21:01 - Nov 26 by Loyal |
As someone who has watched this forum from afar I would say you start most issues on here and are the cause of many people leaving this forum.
You should be banned. |
Watching from afar. Snigger. Your view is gloriously irrelevant to me but you are of course entitled to it.
Traa. | |
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 21:50 - Nov 26 with 1445 views | GehbeHindert_Bosman |
I fancy Nuns. Am I going to Hell ? |  | | |
| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 21:50 - Nov 26 with 1445 views | perchrockjack |
Religion is a faith held dear to those whose lives depend on it for comfort, inspiration and solace.
In times of trouble not mother Mary but the Virgin Mary, for example.
It is divisive and lethal. Always has been and millions have died in its cause. |  |
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 22:59 - Nov 26 with 1408 views | Lord_Bony |
Is there life after death? Of course there fckn is...now take part in my poll above you twaats... |  |
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 02:52 - Nov 27 with 1373 views | phact0rri |
There's some life after death... after all mass doesn't simply disappear. Now whether "you" have a life after death... well thats an entirely different question where answers are all a bunch of opinions. |  |
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| What's on 15:46 - Nov 27 with 1312 views | Lohengrin |
| What's on 15:33 - Nov 27 by londonlisa2001 |
Excellent outing work ecb.
You and Darran are like Poirot and Miss Marple - I'll leave you two to fight over which one is which  |
You've seen the photos too, Lisa?  |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| What's on 15:47 - Nov 27 with 1306 views | londonlisa2001 |
| What's on 15:46 - Nov 27 by Lohengrin |
You've seen the photos too, Lisa? |
Quite
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 15:50 - Nov 27 with 1304 views | perchrockjack |
Preachers are ,by definition , there to bring the woprd of God to non believers, at least the ones not believing what the preacher believes.
That's the problem; all religions have preachers/priests so its impossible to say who s right and who s praying to the right God.
As regards muslims- do the different sects pray together at Mosques or are there separate mosques for each sect. | |
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| What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 16:21 - Nov 27 with 1291 views | Lord_Bony |
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