| Then and now 13:44 - Mar 8 with 3402 views | cadleigh |
Martin enthusiasts often refer back to the run of seven games from Hull on 17 September to Cardiff on 23 October. Six wins and one defeat. Automatic promotion form. Then it all went wrong, the argument goes, because the squad was asset stripped/we didn't plug the gaps we needed to/confidence was shot by the mess of a transfer window (delete where applicable).
Looking back at the squads for those seven games, I was surprised to see how much continuity there was - then and now.
Benda, Wood, Cabango, Grimes and Fulton all started all seven matches in that winning streak, Sorinola 6, Cooper and Piroe 5, Naughton, Latibeaudiere, Manning, Cundle and Obafemi 4, Darling 3, Ntcham 2 and Allen 1.
In the last seven games (one win, one draw, five defeats - relegation form), he's started Fisher, Wood, Cabango, Manning and Piroe every time, Cooper and Grimes six times (Grimes would have been seven I am sure if he hadn't been ill), Fulton 5, Allen, Latibeaudiere and Sorinola 4, Darling and Cundle 3, Cullen, Whittaker and Ntcham twice and Naughton once.
In other words, it's not just the core of that team that won six out of seven that's intact and (Benda aside), still available to this manager: Obafemi is the only player who started during that winning run who's not currently with the club.
The idea, then, that our current failure on the pitch is due to asset stripping or failure to plug gaps does not hold water. We were able to win then with these players, so why not now?
OK, the loss of Benda was a major blow, although between the Cardiff win and Benda's injury at QPR we let in 15 goals in 11 games and only managed two clean sheets, so let's not pin everything on his absence.
Unless you are going to go down the absurd rabbit hole of complaining that our form went west in late October because of the confidence-sapping effects of a transfer window that didn't even open for another two months, there's really only one coherent explanation: the tactics we've employed. During that winning streak in September and October the players we abandoned Martinball and played football as though we enjoyed it. We can - and should - do it again.
[Post edited 8 Mar 2023 13:46]
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| Then and now on 14:56 - Mar 8 with 2795 views | Fireboy2 |
I've said it plenty of times, 4 at the back worked plus having pace (obafemi)
Now he persists with 5 at the back for whatever reason and we have lost our only player with pace.
Imo he's persisting with 5 at the back to spite the owners, it's obviously not working as we are getting worse and worse and he knows they won't sack him because they are tightwads. |  | | |
| Then and now on 15:56 - Mar 8 with 2732 views | onehunglow |
It’s tedious and utter misery as a famed contributor stated.
Tightwads is not really the case,just stupid . | |
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| Then and now on 18:45 - Mar 8 with 2661 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
Te owners forced Marin to play Whitaker. they forced him to settle things with Patterson. The sold Obafemi for Martin . They cannot tell him what tactics to play as well. |  |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| Then and now on 19:07 - Mar 8 with 2646 views | Whiterockin |
| Then and now on 18:45 - Mar 8 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Te owners forced Marin to play Whitaker. they forced him to settle things with Patterson. The sold Obafemi for Martin . They cannot tell him what tactics to play as well. |
In your opinion. Not fact. |  | | |
| Then and now on 06:52 - Mar 9 with 2515 views | PawelAbbott |
We started the season terribly, much the same form as we have now. There were calls for Martin to be sacked.
Then we hit that run of form.
At that point, people were questioning whether Martin had been told to change tactics or if O'Leary or someone else had been given more input into tactics.
The tactics changed dramatically. We were winning games with 30-40% possession.
Then after beating Cardiff the tactics reverted to 70-80% possession and the form plummeted.
Whatever happened during that period has saved us from certain relegation.
We are still in a situation where we could easily go down. But without that winning run, we would be dead and buried by now | | | |
| Then and now on 08:07 - Mar 9 with 2486 views | QJumpingJack |
| Then and now on 18:45 - Mar 8 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Te owners forced Marin to play Whitaker. they forced him to settle things with Patterson. The sold Obafemi for Martin . They cannot tell him what tactics to play as well. |
who is the source from the club on this?
One for the journos to ask Russell at his next press conference this week.
Incredible if true. | | | |
| Then and now on 09:14 - Mar 9 with 2452 views | Fireboy2 |
| Then and now on 08:07 - Mar 9 by QJumpingJack |
who is the source from the club on this?
One for the journos to ask Russell at his next press conference this week.
Incredible if true. |
It's the usual hearsay from him.
File under bollox. | | | |
| Then and now on 10:24 - Mar 9 with 2434 views | cadleigh |
| Then and now on 06:52 - Mar 9 by PawelAbbott |
We started the season terribly, much the same form as we have now. There were calls for Martin to be sacked.
Then we hit that run of form.
At that point, people were questioning whether Martin had been told to change tactics or if O'Leary or someone else had been given more input into tactics.
The tactics changed dramatically. We were winning games with 30-40% possession.
Then after beating Cardiff the tactics reverted to 70-80% possession and the form plummeted.
Whatever happened during that period has saved us from certain relegation.
We are still in a situation where we could easily go down. But without that winning run, we would be dead and buried by now |
Excellent summary, PA.
Looked at from the POV of possession rather than results, our anomalous run actually started at Stoke on 31 August and ended with the 4-0 defeat at Burnley on 15 October. In the games before Stoke our average possession was 67% and in the games since Burnley it's been exactly the same figure. In the eight games in between, we averaged less than 52% possession and won five, drew one and lost two - automatic promotion form in any of the last three seasons. After the defeat at Burnley, he reverted back to type.
As I said in my original post, Benda/Fisher aside, there is no reason why Martin couldn't ditch Martinball and revert to the tactics that worked so well for us in that period because he has all the same players now that he had then.
Quick reminder of the excuses being offered up by his dwindling band of defenders (who bizarrely think they still represent the majority of supporters):
'He can't be blamed because he hasn't been backed/didn't get the players he needed to crack on'. Well he did achieve automatic promotion form with the current squad then, so why not now?
'He can't be blamed because the squad is so thin/the owners sold key players'. See above.
'He can't be blamed because the winter transfer window "demoralised Martin, Winter, Marsh, the players, the fans, everyone really" (yes, that is a real quote from a totally deluded Martin apologist)'. It may well have done, but the rot set in after Burnley, when he reverted to the mesmerisingly boring form of walking football we call Martinball.
This is not to excuse the owners or Winter for their failures, but at the end of the day the buck stops with the manager. | |
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| Then and now on 10:27 - Mar 9 with 2426 views | KeithHaynes |
| Then and now on 06:52 - Mar 9 by PawelAbbott |
We started the season terribly, much the same form as we have now. There were calls for Martin to be sacked.
Then we hit that run of form.
At that point, people were questioning whether Martin had been told to change tactics or if O'Leary or someone else had been given more input into tactics.
The tactics changed dramatically. We were winning games with 30-40% possession.
Then after beating Cardiff the tactics reverted to 70-80% possession and the form plummeted.
Whatever happened during that period has saved us from certain relegation.
We are still in a situation where we could easily go down. But without that winning run, we would be dead and buried by now |
I absolutely agree, bar the relegation thing, for me that’s going to be ok, |  |
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| Then and now on 18:29 - Mar 9 with 2364 views | guthrieintherain |
What Martin enthusiasts are there any left.
Yes the away support still sing his name but that is down to tribalism I think. | |
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| Then and now on 19:51 - Mar 9 with 2326 views | vetchonian |
| Then and now on 14:56 - Mar 8 by Fireboy2 |
I've said it plenty of times, 4 at the back worked plus having pace (obafemi)
Now he persists with 5 at the back for whatever reason and we have lost our only player with pace.
Imo he's persisting with 5 at the back to spite the owners, it's obviously not working as we are getting worse and worse and he knows they won't sack him because they are tightwads. |
amazing how Martin is doing this to spite the owners especially when leaving his must have Darling left on the bench who the tightwad owners gave him How much ti biy?
the man is an arrogant stubborn fraud who is is killing our club....the owners should sack him now pq | |
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| Then and now on 19:57 - Mar 9 with 2324 views | PawelAbbott |
| Then and now on 10:27 - Mar 9 by KeithHaynes |
I absolutely agree, bar the relegation thing, for me that’s going to be ok, |
Earlier in the week, if Wigan or Huddersfield had won in the week and then again on the weekend. Then they would have moved to within 5 points of us with 10 games to go.
We have 3 tough games in a row. If we come out with nothing and the teams below us get even 6 points, then we will be dragged right into it. | | | |
| Then and now on 20:08 - Mar 9 with 2310 views | Whiterockin |
| Then and now on 19:57 - Mar 9 by PawelAbbott |
Earlier in the week, if Wigan or Huddersfield had won in the week and then again on the weekend. Then they would have moved to within 5 points of us with 10 games to go.
We have 3 tough games in a row. If we come out with nothing and the teams below us get even 6 points, then we will be dragged right into it. |
But they didn't and there is an 11 point gap with 11 games to go. The bottom 3 haven't picked up a point a game so far, it's would take an incredible turnaround for any of them to go above us and still there is another 4 teams between us and the bottom 3. | | | |
| Then and now on 20:16 - Mar 9 with 2289 views | PawelAbbott |
| Then and now on 20:08 - Mar 9 by Whiterockin |
But they didn't and there is an 11 point gap with 11 games to go. The bottom 3 haven't picked up a point a game so far, it's would take an incredible turnaround for any of them to go above us and still there is another 4 teams between us and the bottom 3. |
I agree, it didn't happen, they didn't win and there is a point a game between us.
We should be fine but teams have gone down from similar positions.
Martin was expected to show continuous improvement season on season. At the moment we look more like going backwards than improving on last seasons finish | | | |
| Then and now on 20:22 - Mar 9 with 2275 views | onehunglow |
| Then and now on 19:51 - Mar 9 by vetchonian |
amazing how Martin is doing this to spite the owners especially when leaving his must have Darling left on the bench who the tightwad owners gave him How much ti biy?
the man is an arrogant stubborn fraud who is is killing our club....the owners should sack him now pq |
Think it’s been said before.
It should be obvious as to what to do | |
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| Then and now on 20:22 - Mar 9 with 2282 views | Whiterockin |
| Then and now on 20:16 - Mar 9 by PawelAbbott |
I agree, it didn't happen, they didn't win and there is a point a game between us.
We should be fine but teams have gone down from similar positions.
Martin was expected to show continuous improvement season on season. At the moment we look more like going backwards than improving on last seasons finish |
I'm not defending him and wish he would leave now, one way or another. I'm just saying it's highly unlikely we will be drawn into a relegation battle. We are bad but the teams at the bottom are crap. Look at the goal difference, often the bottom 3 are the ones with the worst difference, they have it for a reason. | | | |
| Then and now on 21:32 - Mar 9 with 2235 views | swancity |
| Then and now on 20:22 - Mar 9 by Whiterockin |
I'm not defending him and wish he would leave now, one way or another. I'm just saying it's highly unlikely we will be drawn into a relegation battle. We are bad but the teams at the bottom are crap. Look at the goal difference, often the bottom 3 are the ones with the worst difference, they have it for a reason. |
There are no “ crap “ teams in this league. They are all decent. The bottom three are all capable of beating sides in the top six.
This talk of relegation is nonsense. We will not be relegated this season. By repeating the same thing over and over again doesn’t make it right. We aren’t defending well enough. We all know that as does our manager. We finished in 15th last season and that would be a reasonable return this time. Our Club, I repeat is not an ambitious one at present. The owners seem to think that you can make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. Look at our player wage bill. It’s a fraction of what it was quite recently. That tells you all you need to know. | |
| Only an idiot would eat a turkey curry on Christmas day |
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| Then and now on 22:28 - Mar 9 with 2190 views | KeithHaynes |
| Then and now on 20:22 - Mar 9 by onehunglow |
Think it’s been said before.
It should be obvious as to what to do |
£ | |
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| Then and now on 22:32 - Mar 9 with 2183 views | PawelAbbott |
| Then and now on 21:32 - Mar 9 by swancity |
There are no “ crap “ teams in this league. They are all decent. The bottom three are all capable of beating sides in the top six.
This talk of relegation is nonsense. We will not be relegated this season. By repeating the same thing over and over again doesn’t make it right. We aren’t defending well enough. We all know that as does our manager. We finished in 15th last season and that would be a reasonable return this time. Our Club, I repeat is not an ambitious one at present. The owners seem to think that you can make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. Look at our player wage bill. It’s a fraction of what it was quite recently. That tells you all you need to know. |
We finished with 61 points last season. That would be 6 more wins this season.
That is looking highly unlikely at the moment.
What happens to Martin if we go backwards this season?
Will he be shown the door when it is clear that there hasn't been an improvement | | | |
| Then and now on 09:20 - Mar 10 with 2097 views | cadleigh |
| Then and now on 21:32 - Mar 9 by swancity |
There are no “ crap “ teams in this league. They are all decent. The bottom three are all capable of beating sides in the top six.
This talk of relegation is nonsense. We will not be relegated this season. By repeating the same thing over and over again doesn’t make it right. We aren’t defending well enough. We all know that as does our manager. We finished in 15th last season and that would be a reasonable return this time. Our Club, I repeat is not an ambitious one at present. The owners seem to think that you can make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. Look at our player wage bill. It’s a fraction of what it was quite recently. That tells you all you need to know. |
So if I understand you correctly:
- The major problem with the team at the moment is our defence.
- Finishing 15th will be a reasonable result given the resources available to this manager.
Nothing in my OP convinces you otherwise?
To recap:
- In the 27 games when Martin had the players playing Martinball, we averaged 1 point per game - relegation form.
- In the 8 games when we abandoned Martinball we averaged 2 points per game - automatic promotion form.
I keep reading that it's fine margins, individual player errors, that Martin deserves a medal if he finishes above 16th with the players he's got. Sorry, but the facts are clear: these players are capable of beating most teams when they are allowed to play the way they want to. But they can't even beat the worst teams in the division when they are made to play Martinball. | |
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| Then and now on 09:41 - Mar 10 with 2075 views | Dr_Winston |
I think almost everyone barring the odd troll and weirdo understands by this point that the single biggest barrier to our progression is Russell Martin. His tactical inflexibility, defensive inadequacy and desperation to make a flawed system work despite an almost Encyclopaedia Brittanica's worth of evidence to the contrary has been there for all to see for the last twelve months.
Perhaps the most galling thing is that he no doubt realises that he can improve results by ditching his preferred style. He's not an idiot, despite appearances to the contrary. He will be well aware of how much better we are when we don't play that way, but he's got too much invested in his project now. Admitting failure would result in terminal injury to his ego.
We'd have clear reasons for dismissing him on the grounds of gross incompetence if we chose to do so. [Post edited 10 Mar 2023 9:59]
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| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Then and now on 13:49 - Mar 10 with 2003 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Then and now on 09:14 - Mar 9 by Fireboy2 |
It's the usual hearsay from him.
File under bollox. |
It is speculation. The very bread and water upon which forums live and breathe. Sources are the media available to everyone. I try to work out what is happening.
Martin by having no new signings is being forced by he owners to "sweat the assets". Had two new strikers appeared Whitaker would be banging in goals for Plymouth and Patterson and Cullen twiddling thier thumbs. Martin has no other options.
The owners assessed Martin could not deliver top 6 with considerable expenditure and two new strikers.
Top 15 is neither her no there. Why spend big money. If Martin can deliver top 6 then time to talk new contract. It is looking very unlikely.
I do not recall a manager being obliged to take a loan player back against both the wishes of the player or manager before. Martin then realised support for him was not guaranteed with out reciprocal performances. Swansea losing is one thing but lack of commitment as seen with the Luton goal is something else. | |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| Then and now on 14:18 - Mar 10 with 1987 views | pencoedjack |
| Then and now on 21:32 - Mar 9 by swancity |
There are no “ crap “ teams in this league. They are all decent. The bottom three are all capable of beating sides in the top six.
This talk of relegation is nonsense. We will not be relegated this season. By repeating the same thing over and over again doesn’t make it right. We aren’t defending well enough. We all know that as does our manager. We finished in 15th last season and that would be a reasonable return this time. Our Club, I repeat is not an ambitious one at present. The owners seem to think that you can make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. Look at our player wage bill. It’s a fraction of what it was quite recently. That tells you all you need to know. |
Finishing 15th would be reasonable?
Wow. |  | | |
| Then and now on 17:13 - Mar 10 with 1944 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Then and now on 14:18 - Mar 10 by pencoedjack |
Finishing 15th would be reasonable?
Wow. |
With Martin in charge it is reasonable, with a decent manager it would be a failure.
With Martin in charge again next season, then we are in trouble. If we persist with this nonsense we are only going one way, in my opinion. | | | |
| Then and now on 21:03 - Mar 10 with 1914 views | onehunglow |
| Then and now on 14:18 - Mar 10 by pencoedjack |
Finishing 15th would be reasonable?
Wow. |
It would be a relief .
Think swan city needs to reflect on how the crap teams somehow beat us or are unlucky not to.
Staggering
[Post edited 10 Mar 2023 21:03]
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