| Are we safe yet? 17:35 - Mar 10 with 14121 views | stuabd |
Surely even we can't make a drama out of this end to the season? |  | | |  |
| Are we safe yet? on 19:59 - Mar 11 with 2837 views | TacticalR |
| Are we safe yet? on 14:24 - Mar 11 by isawqpratwcity |
It's the shit clubs below that flatter us. Twice in a month we've beaten relegation zone clubs at HQ only after them being reduced to ten men.
We're not going down this season, but Holloway's got to go in May. |
I'd like to thank the shit clubs for everything they have done for our club. |  |
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| Are we safe yet? on 20:21 - Mar 11 with 2794 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Are we safe yet? on 14:24 - Mar 11 by isawqpratwcity |
It's the shit clubs below that flatter us. Twice in a month we've beaten relegation zone clubs at HQ only after them being reduced to ten men.
We're not going down this season, but Holloway's got to go in May. |
Maybe we can get Pep in, he is bound to be bored by the end of the season and want a new challenge working with no money and having to develop players instead of buying them in for £50M++++ |  |
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| Are we safe yet? (n/t) on 20:33 - Mar 11 with 2776 views | mylot50years |
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| Are we safe yet? on 21:08 - Mar 11 with 2707 views | mylot50years |
| Are we safe yet? on 13:23 - Mar 11 by Northernr |
We are League One bound under this manager. I've been told repeatedly since this time last year. |
Yes Clive and you have repeatedly gone out to try and defend the indefensible as regards to a managerial change, but we don't want to push our luck do we so come the end of season some positive thinking by those that have to deal with these difficult issues is a high priority. And to simply be content to have avoided relegation on this second occasion is the grounding to give it another go next time around, along with a rapidly diminishing hard core support would be inconceivable. | | | |
| Are we safe yet? on 22:22 - Mar 11 with 2655 views | Northernr |
| Are we safe yet? on 21:08 - Mar 11 by mylot50years |
Yes Clive and you have repeatedly gone out to try and defend the indefensible as regards to a managerial change, but we don't want to push our luck do we so come the end of season some positive thinking by those that have to deal with these difficult issues is a high priority. And to simply be content to have avoided relegation on this second occasion is the grounding to give it another go next time around, along with a rapidly diminishing hard core support would be inconceivable. |
Jobs this year:
- stay in league
- reduce wage bill
- reduce squad size
- get rid of last remaining twts
- get some of the kids in the team
All accomplished. Next season we need to be moving to better, this can't just be us forever, but if you'd offered us what has happened at the start of the season everybody would have taken it. Problem is all the same people who said we'd definitely be relegated this season have, instead of saying 'ah yeh fair enough I was wrong' have simply switched to: "we're definitely going down next season". |  | | |
| Are we safe yet? on 23:18 - Mar 11 with 2608 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Are we safe yet? on 22:22 - Mar 11 by Northernr |
Jobs this year:
- stay in league
- reduce wage bill
- reduce squad size
- get rid of last remaining twts
- get some of the kids in the team
All accomplished. Next season we need to be moving to better, this can't just be us forever, but if you'd offered us what has happened at the start of the season everybody would have taken it. Problem is all the same people who said we'd definitely be relegated this season have, instead of saying 'ah yeh fair enough I was wrong' have simply switched to: "we're definitely going down next season". |
And tell me, which of those five targets have changed since Ramsey was confirmed manager at the start of the 15/16 season?
And don't tell me I've said ever, even once, that 'we're going to be relegated under Holloway'. Last season, before you, I called that we were going to stay up. And we were both right. But by Crikey, Holloway had a red-hot go at proving us wrong, didn't he?
What I have said, consistently since about January last year, is that Holloway is a) too erratic, b) on average, just not good enough, and c) just not quite bad enough to provoke an instant dismissal. The last one is the mistake. As soon as we are close enough to being safe, all of the bad performances, the dismal runs (Holloway can't be bad because he didn't lose six in a row, twice, this season and we've also managed to win away, twice!!!) are forgotten and we bottle out with self-pitying complaints. Who else is good enough? Who else is cheap enough? Who else would come here anyway?
I DON'T KNOW!!! But we should be looking anyway. All eight of the clubs below us are exhibiting genuine relegation form. We shouldn't wait for Holloway's performance to dip just that little bit to put us into a genuine relegation fight.
He was not employed to 'just get us through'. Both Ramsey and Hasselbaink were achieving that minimum standard. Holloway was brought in to improve the performance of the team. He's been given a decent amount of time to do that and has not succeeded.
Replace him this summer. |  |
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| Are we safe yet? on 23:31 - Mar 11 with 2598 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Are we safe yet? on 19:59 - Mar 11 by TacticalR |
I'd like to thank the shit clubs for everything they have done for our club. |
If that is a reply to me, then don't bother, I heard you the first time. But since I last used that epithet, the allure of being a 'shit club', ie getting a point a game or less, has expanded that group from six to seven, with an eighth, Sheffield Wednesday, trying their hardest to join.
Under Holloway, we are much higher up the table than we deserve, only because the bottom end of the Championship this season is just so bloody awful. | |
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| Are we safe yet? on 23:57 - Mar 11 with 2562 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Are we safe yet? on 23:18 - Mar 11 by isawqpratwcity |
And tell me, which of those five targets have changed since Ramsey was confirmed manager at the start of the 15/16 season?
And don't tell me I've said ever, even once, that 'we're going to be relegated under Holloway'. Last season, before you, I called that we were going to stay up. And we were both right. But by Crikey, Holloway had a red-hot go at proving us wrong, didn't he?
What I have said, consistently since about January last year, is that Holloway is a) too erratic, b) on average, just not good enough, and c) just not quite bad enough to provoke an instant dismissal. The last one is the mistake. As soon as we are close enough to being safe, all of the bad performances, the dismal runs (Holloway can't be bad because he didn't lose six in a row, twice, this season and we've also managed to win away, twice!!!) are forgotten and we bottle out with self-pitying complaints. Who else is good enough? Who else is cheap enough? Who else would come here anyway?
I DON'T KNOW!!! But we should be looking anyway. All eight of the clubs below us are exhibiting genuine relegation form. We shouldn't wait for Holloway's performance to dip just that little bit to put us into a genuine relegation fight.
He was not employed to 'just get us through'. Both Ramsey and Hasselbaink were achieving that minimum standard. Holloway was brought in to improve the performance of the team. He's been given a decent amount of time to do that and has not succeeded.
Replace him this summer. |
I think you are right on your "a b and c" but I don't agree it's a mistake not to instantly sack him.
I think "getting us through" is exactly what he was employed to do. Sure the job is the same as it was for Ramsey and JFH but I don't see what difference that makes; those two were to some extent harshly treated because too many people failed to get what the job was for them too.
CR and JFH were sacked IMO because their positions became untenable due to fan dissatisfaction; I don't believe Holloway was employed to do better, but to finish the job and to use his history with the club to buy the time that his predecessors never got.
I think he deserves credit for it but it's precisely because I think he has done what he was asked that I think it's time to move on in the summer. But I think we'll need to look abroad for candidates (and why not? Another De Canio would be fine by me). | | | |
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| Are we safe yet? on 00:04 - Mar 12 with 2556 views | Myke |
It really is a bit of a conundrum On the one hand, Holloway has ticked all the boxes as Clive rightly points out. Equally valid is the point that the bottom 6/7/8 are exceptionally crap which has artificially raised our league position. Usually you have one really poor team that is adrift of the rest by now and then it's any 2 from 5/6. This year, despite only winning once in a dozen odd games , Sunderland are only a few points from safety.
For this reason, I think we need to approach from a 'personal best' perspective than by a league position. So for example, If we exceed last years tally of 53, even by a couple of points , coupled with all the accomplishments outlined above by Clive, then I then that Holloway can legitimately say he is bringing the team forward.
Conversely, if we stay up with, say 48 points, by virtue of the fact that there are so many crap teams below us, then, notwithstanding all the other factors, it would be difficult to argue that Holloway is heading in the right direction | | | |
| Are we safe yet? on 00:35 - Mar 12 with 2535 views | smegma |
| Are we safe yet? on 14:24 - Mar 11 by isawqpratwcity |
It's the shit clubs below that flatter us. Twice in a month we've beaten relegation zone clubs at HQ only after them being reduced to ten men.
We're not going down this season, but Holloway's got to go in May. |
And twice in 4 days we beat the top two who had eleven men. You must've been gutted. | | | |
| Are we safe yet? on 01:04 - Mar 12 with 2525 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Are we safe yet? on 23:57 - Mar 11 by CiderwithRsie |
I think you are right on your "a b and c" but I don't agree it's a mistake not to instantly sack him.
I think "getting us through" is exactly what he was employed to do. Sure the job is the same as it was for Ramsey and JFH but I don't see what difference that makes; those two were to some extent harshly treated because too many people failed to get what the job was for them too.
CR and JFH were sacked IMO because their positions became untenable due to fan dissatisfaction; I don't believe Holloway was employed to do better, but to finish the job and to use his history with the club to buy the time that his predecessors never got.
I think he deserves credit for it but it's precisely because I think he has done what he was asked that I think it's time to move on in the summer. But I think we'll need to look abroad for candidates (and why not? Another De Canio would be fine by me). |
No, the mistake isn't deciding not to sack him immediately, the mistake is not remembering how erratic, and, overall, how generally bad he is come the end of the season. Look how he is still being given the thumbs up around here, when our league position says more about the OMG-bad clubs below us rather than anything we've achieved.
He wasn't employed to just 'get us through'. Ramsey and Hasselbaink were doing that and were still sacked, fan dissatisfaction or not. By his own words on appointment: "My job is to try to help this squad improve and create an environment that the players can succeed in" ( https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/37943477). It doesn't excuse him that some players have done better, because some very definitely haven't and the overall standard, how the team plays, is pretty bloody ordinary.
I know we basically agree. I don't have the same residual respect for Holloway that you do, but neither have I anything against him except his lack of success. If fan dissatisfaction counts for anything, I'm expressing mine. He has to go this summer. | |
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| Are we safe yet? on 01:17 - Mar 12 with 2512 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Are we safe yet? on 00:35 - Mar 12 by smegma |
And twice in 4 days we beat the top two who had eleven men. You must've been gutted. |
Yeah? And that was the absolute highlight of our season. As I said, he is erratic and overall not very good.
And do not give me that lazy, tired shit about being glad when we lose, because I'm not.
He is not good enough and he can't complain that he hasn't been given a decent go. Replace him in summer. [Post edited 12 Mar 2018 1:53]
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| Are we safe yet? on 01:43 - Mar 12 with 2502 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Are we safe yet? on 00:04 - Mar 12 by Myke |
It really is a bit of a conundrum On the one hand, Holloway has ticked all the boxes as Clive rightly points out. Equally valid is the point that the bottom 6/7/8 are exceptionally crap which has artificially raised our league position. Usually you have one really poor team that is adrift of the rest by now and then it's any 2 from 5/6. This year, despite only winning once in a dozen odd games , Sunderland are only a few points from safety.
For this reason, I think we need to approach from a 'personal best' perspective than by a league position. So for example, If we exceed last years tally of 53, even by a couple of points , coupled with all the accomplishments outlined above by Clive, then I then that Holloway can legitimately say he is bringing the team forward.
Conversely, if we stay up with, say 48 points, by virtue of the fact that there are so many crap teams below us, then, notwithstanding all the other factors, it would be difficult to argue that Holloway is heading in the right direction |
I appreciate your analysis, but take issue with it on two points.
Forty-eight points is not guarantee of safety. Five clubs in Championship history (14 seasons) have been relegated with 48 points or more: all of them, interestingly, had at least 50 points and as high as 54. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFL_Championship#Relegated_teams_(from_Championshi
While the extra point for a win means the league is no longer an effectively zero-sum game, it is generally true that a significant numbers of clubs getting very few points (as is the case this season) means that the rest get more points than they would 'normally'. The best of the eight clubs below us has an average of only 1.03 points per game. That form, about now in a 'normal' season, would be a serious relegation threat. Being five points above them is less about how good we are and more about how bad they are.
Edit: I shouldn't post when angry, but Smegma's reply was the height of ignorance (about 4' 2"). I didn't grasp correctly your argument and so the first point of my reply is irrelevant. I still stand by my second point, though. Getting more points than last season is not an indication of improvement if this season a massive eight clubs are obligingly giving points away so readily. And as I've said before, the five conditions Clive listed are no different to the brief that was handed to the two previous managers, and Holloway has produced a small amount of better football, and a large amount of worse, than either of them.
He's had a decent go; it's time to find a replacement. [Post edited 12 Mar 2018 2:39]
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| Are we safe yet? on 04:32 - Mar 12 with 2452 views | mylot50years |
| Are we safe yet? on 22:22 - Mar 11 by Northernr |
Jobs this year:
- stay in league
- reduce wage bill
- reduce squad size
- get rid of last remaining twts
- get some of the kids in the team
All accomplished. Next season we need to be moving to better, this can't just be us forever, but if you'd offered us what has happened at the start of the season everybody would have taken it. Problem is all the same people who said we'd definitely be relegated this season have, instead of saying 'ah yeh fair enough I was wrong' have simply switched to: "we're definitely going down next season". |
Clive it's not really a case of who is right or wrong, obviously I personally as I am sure all of us will be delighted if we avoid relegation this season as now seems likely, but our main priority has to be to build on the few positives particulary of late with the kids now being involved, something as encouraging as it is can quite easily be derailed by poor decision making and the unpredictability involving team selection and tactics that we all have witnessed, particularly those of us that go to the away fixtures Let's be honest there are some very poor teams in the championship this season,and with our restrictions financially we have basically been able to get away with it again,at the end of the season the board have the opportunity to thank IH for his efforts and in turn ensure, by retaining the majority of the present playing staff and utilising them so not to much financially outlay would be required, to enable us as a club to stabilize ourselves in the championship and in time move forward. As I've said Clive it's not a case of who was right or wrong in accessing the many questionable managerial decisions made this seasons, of witch many of us find extremely difficult to come to terms with, we now have the opportunity come May to act in the long term stability and future of our club.If we don't I fear we will quite possibly find ourselves having to address it come November onwards next season and goodness knows what damage particularly player wise may have been caused by then. It's a gamble we as a club, are in so many ways not in a position to take, and more importantly don't need to. | | | |
| Are we safe yet? on 08:31 - Mar 12 with 2376 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
Some good points made in the last few posts but then I think is it IH fault we had so many injuries and a bunch of forwards that missed 4/5 times as many chances than they scored and I do mean missed, many of them shocking misses.
Edit CW has score 1 in 7 attempts Smith not any better
Had they not been so bad we would have 55/60+ points?
Not everything is IH fault as some want to make out, but if that's your agenda you won't want to consider any other reason.
Edit
The next 2 games AV and Fulham, most have conceded we will lose but it's not because of IH or tactics/formations, they just have better players than us, but that won't stop the Olly out mob from blaming him. [Post edited 12 Mar 2018 9:39]
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| Are we safe yet? on 09:25 - Mar 12 with 2299 views | BrianMcCarthy |
There isn't the slightest chance that anyone on this thread will change their mind even a smidgin. |  |
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| Are we safe yet? on 09:31 - Mar 12 with 2292 views | LowerloftLad |
qpr 250/1
Sheffield 16/1
So even the bookies have us down as safe |  |
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| Are we safe yet? on 10:18 - Mar 12 with 2258 views | jonno |
| Are we safe yet? on 09:31 - Mar 12 by LowerloftLad |
qpr 250/1
Sheffield 16/1
So even the bookies have us down as safe |
Well nobody is saying that Forest are in danger of relegation are they? And they have just one point more than us and one goal better goal difference, so I would say on the balance of probability that we are safe. Just don't tell the players that or they will be metaphorically "on the beach" for the remaining games. |  | | |
| Are we safe yet? on 11:47 - Mar 12 with 2209 views | onlyrinmoray |
Sacking Managers its always a gamble isn't it ? I think back to the Warnock days He took us up great season(just watched the 4 Year Plan ) I remember being at Everton a 1-0 win thanks Tommy . Fernandes just installed bye bye Briatore. A Great day.. everything in the QPR garden rosy
My next match MK Dons away in the cup we grab a last minute equaliser thanks Heider Cries of "you don't know what you are doing" at Warnock from the packed away end The following week Warnock was sacked
I never understood that and still don't, and its been a struggle with managers since even with Wembley, as no one trusted Arry |  | | |
| Are we safe yet? on 12:54 - Mar 12 with 2155 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Are we safe yet? on 09:25 - Mar 12 by BrianMcCarthy |
There isn't the slightest chance that anyone on this thread will change their mind even a smidgin. |
Brian, I don't want to see us get relegated. I think it would be a disaster for the club. My complaints about Holloway are that he is erratic and, on average, not very good. Combine those two faults and you get someone who will chronically reside in the bottom half of the table and occasionally spin out badly and flirt with relegation.
I've been banging on about points per game for more than a year now, because it gives you a way to assess progress. Each game is one forty-sixth of a season and by mid-September, you are starting to get trends developing. Come the end of the season, multiply everyone's average points per game by 46 and you're back to the league table.
My problem about Holloway supporters is that they don't admit to having a criterion for triggering Holloway's departure, or if they do, it is something like 'bottom three'. Well, sorry, bottom three isn't acceptable to me anytime after the first handful of games; it means you have to outperform teams above you to survive.
I've got a criterion of a points per game figure in mind that would make me get off Holloway's back for a season or two as the club finds it's FFP feet. I think I can justify it as being fair and reasonable.
Do you have a performance indicator that would make you change your mind, Brian? | |
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| Are we safe yet? on 12:59 - Mar 12 with 2137 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
isawqpratwcity and others think the only answer is to sack IH with no evidence that that will change anything. just another spin of the wheel. [Post edited 12 Mar 2018 13:01]
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| Are we safe yet? on 13:34 - Mar 12 with 2092 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Are we safe yet? on 12:59 - Mar 12 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
isawqpratwcity and others think the only answer is to sack IH with no evidence that that will change anything. just another spin of the wheel. [Post edited 12 Mar 2018 13:01]
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That's unfair. It isn't just "have a go at the managerial tombola, see if we get lucky." I've consistently argued against sacking Holloway during this season because I think that would have been spinning the wheel and because we need to stop being that club that sacks the manager every bloody season.
Changing managers in the summer is different.Question is not "has IH done enough this year?" or "has he done what was asked?", it's "is he good enough for the future?"
Good work has been done on the squad and FFP but with the core of a squad coming together FWIW I agree with IsawQPRAtWtCity; I'm not convinced by IH's approach to formations, ability to get best out of the squad, response to losing runs etc. Also I think he takes against certain players which (unintentionally) demoralises them. Plus he's an emotional bloke and I think he has found parts of this season very tough, I'm not sure it's even kind to him to keep him in post rather than paying up his contract and letting him go on a relative success.
We need the same approach to finding a manager that has been brought to players - good scouting, looking for value-for-money. It'll be tough but at very least we should be looking. | | | |
| Are we safe yet? on 13:39 - Mar 12 with 2081 views | E17hoop |
| Are we safe yet? on 22:22 - Mar 11 by Northernr |
Jobs this year:
- stay in league
- reduce wage bill
- reduce squad size
- get rid of last remaining twts
- get some of the kids in the team
All accomplished. Next season we need to be moving to better, this can't just be us forever, but if you'd offered us what has happened at the start of the season everybody would have taken it. Problem is all the same people who said we'd definitely be relegated this season have, instead of saying 'ah yeh fair enough I was wrong' have simply switched to: "we're definitely going down next season". |
The jobs listed by Clive are absolutes, yet IH is being challenged over relatives - how poor the division is, the points achieved, etc. What other absolute measures has he failed at which justify removing him? |  |
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| Are we safe yet? on 13:49 - Mar 12 with 2066 views | AgedR |
| Are we safe yet? on 12:54 - Mar 12 by isawqpratwcity |
Brian, I don't want to see us get relegated. I think it would be a disaster for the club. My complaints about Holloway are that he is erratic and, on average, not very good. Combine those two faults and you get someone who will chronically reside in the bottom half of the table and occasionally spin out badly and flirt with relegation.
I've been banging on about points per game for more than a year now, because it gives you a way to assess progress. Each game is one forty-sixth of a season and by mid-September, you are starting to get trends developing. Come the end of the season, multiply everyone's average points per game by 46 and you're back to the league table.
My problem about Holloway supporters is that they don't admit to having a criterion for triggering Holloway's departure, or if they do, it is something like 'bottom three'. Well, sorry, bottom three isn't acceptable to me anytime after the first handful of games; it means you have to outperform teams above you to survive.
I've got a criterion of a points per game figure in mind that would make me get off Holloway's back for a season or two as the club finds it's FFP feet. I think I can justify it as being fair and reasonable.
Do you have a performance indicator that would make you change your mind, Brian? |
I think the criteria was:
1) Reduce the wage bill
2) Introduce young players to the squad
3) Finish higher than last season
All three of these objectives have been met.
I’d suggest that the same three objectives apply next season at least. Maybe the season after we might add 4) Finish top ten and then subsequently, make the playoffs, then gain promotion. Ollie might not be the right manager for those more ambitious objectives, but, there really isn’t any argument that he’s achieved his target for 17/18 and I would argue he’s earnt a crack at 18/19 at least. |  |
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| Are we safe yet? on 13:51 - Mar 12 with 2059 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Are we safe yet? on 13:34 - Mar 12 by CiderwithRsie |
That's unfair. It isn't just "have a go at the managerial tombola, see if we get lucky." I've consistently argued against sacking Holloway during this season because I think that would have been spinning the wheel and because we need to stop being that club that sacks the manager every bloody season.
Changing managers in the summer is different.Question is not "has IH done enough this year?" or "has he done what was asked?", it's "is he good enough for the future?"
Good work has been done on the squad and FFP but with the core of a squad coming together FWIW I agree with IsawQPRAtWtCity; I'm not convinced by IH's approach to formations, ability to get best out of the squad, response to losing runs etc. Also I think he takes against certain players which (unintentionally) demoralises them. Plus he's an emotional bloke and I think he has found parts of this season very tough, I'm not sure it's even kind to him to keep him in post rather than paying up his contract and letting him go on a relative success.
We need the same approach to finding a manager that has been brought to players - good scouting, looking for value-for-money. It'll be tough but at very least we should be looking. |
So we get to the summer and
What is the squad, what players will be leaving
Can we buy any in, how much can we spend
What's the target for next season with these unknowns?
Maybe it's just to survive in this league again relying on young players
But all this does not matter as long as we get rid of IH Right ? | |
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