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It’s a tough question to answer as the realistic answer is ‘what tactics?’ - it’s not a secret that Steve Holland was the one setting up how we play and making the in game changes.
The biggest issue has been that England’s core of players week in week out play a high intensity, pressing attacking game and you’re then putting them at the whim of a man who plays extremely dour, overtly negative football that hopes for a piece of individual magic to get through games. And as critical as I may be of Southgate, it’s not his fault that he is the man who was asked to manage these players, the FA know exactly who he is and what football he will play.
Also as North says, his time is always overshadowed by the Italy final where he literally conspired to turn a win into a defeat.
That said, and with a risk of Monday morning quarterbacking, last night it was pretty clear that Kane and Mainoo should’ve been hooked at half time as they weren’t in the game at all. I would also argue that Saka should’ve been replaced as he was completely knackered by the hour mark and both Spanish goals came from Walker having to come inside and Saka not tracking back with Williams.
The big positive of his time though is that the players speak openly about how much they enjoy reporting for international duty under him which has long been an issue for England, as talented as some of the squads have been they’ve hated being there.
[Post edited 15 Jul 15:54]
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:06 - Jul 15 with 1450 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 15:52 - Jul 15 by lassel
It’s a tough question to answer as the realistic answer is ‘what tactics?’ - it’s not a secret that Steve Holland was the one setting up how we play and making the in game changes.
The biggest issue has been that England’s core of players week in week out play a high intensity, pressing attacking game and you’re then putting them at the whim of a man who plays extremely dour, overtly negative football that hopes for a piece of individual magic to get through games. And as critical as I may be of Southgate, it’s not his fault that he is the man who was asked to manage these players, the FA know exactly who he is and what football he will play.
Also as North says, his time is always overshadowed by the Italy final where he literally conspired to turn a win into a defeat.
That said, and with a risk of Monday morning quarterbacking, last night it was pretty clear that Kane and Mainoo should’ve been hooked at half time as they weren’t in the game at all. I would also argue that Saka should’ve been replaced as he was completely knackered by the hour mark and both Spanish goals came from Walker having to come inside and Saka not tracking back with Williams.
The big positive of his time though is that the players speak openly about how much they enjoy reporting for international duty under him which has long been an issue for England, as talented as some of the squads have been they’ve hated being there.
[Post edited 15 Jul 15:54]
Apart from Ben White. Mind you he always gives the impression of someone who'd have a miserable day at Cadbury World.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:18 - Jul 15 with 1410 views
If he goes whoever the new manager is won't be playing a high press and energetic attacking way considering the next tournament is going to be played in boiling hot temperatures across America and Mexico at the end of another very long club season. Whoever it is the style is likely to be similar, the time to go high press lots of energy is probably the 2028 euros which are at Wembley
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:21 - Jul 15 with 1386 views
I'm not sure how you play Spain. Press them and come out swinging and they'll pick you off. Give them the ball and they'll kill you with 1000 passes.
The plan last night was obviously to keep it tight and use the subs to alter the game. Where the plan fell down was that Kane is obviously injured so we couldn't relieve any pressure with long balls up to him and we decided to start the second half 2 minutes later than Spain did.
18 months ago in Qatar we were phenomenal, I've never seen anything like it in a tournament from England. Absolutely swatting aside competent sides like Senegal and running a sword through fodder like Wales and Iran. Yet all anyone remembers from that tournament is Kane's penalty miss. International football is funny like that. We'll all remember Euro 2024 with our overhead kicks, last minute winners and The Killers yet we were awful for the majority of it. They nearly did it as well, nearly won the bloody thing in arguably Southgate's worst tournament.
Basically, tactics schamctics. International football is mostly about vibes despite the endless tactics blogs on The Athletic etc.
http://blogandwhitehoops.wordpress.com/
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:23 - Jul 15 with 1382 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:18 - Jul 15 by daveB
If he goes whoever the new manager is won't be playing a high press and energetic attacking way considering the next tournament is going to be played in boiling hot temperatures across America and Mexico at the end of another very long club season. Whoever it is the style is likely to be similar, the time to go high press lots of energy is probably the 2028 euros which are at Wembley
Another inherited problem is the amount of 'tens' we've got. A problem Les used to talk about a lot when he was here.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:33 - Jul 15 with 1344 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:21 - Jul 15 by BAWHoops
I'm not sure how you play Spain. Press them and come out swinging and they'll pick you off. Give them the ball and they'll kill you with 1000 passes.
The plan last night was obviously to keep it tight and use the subs to alter the game. Where the plan fell down was that Kane is obviously injured so we couldn't relieve any pressure with long balls up to him and we decided to start the second half 2 minutes later than Spain did.
18 months ago in Qatar we were phenomenal, I've never seen anything like it in a tournament from England. Absolutely swatting aside competent sides like Senegal and running a sword through fodder like Wales and Iran. Yet all anyone remembers from that tournament is Kane's penalty miss. International football is funny like that. We'll all remember Euro 2024 with our overhead kicks, last minute winners and The Killers yet we were awful for the majority of it. They nearly did it as well, nearly won the bloody thing in arguably Southgate's worst tournament.
Basically, tactics schamctics. International football is mostly about vibes despite the endless tactics blogs on The Athletic etc.
Yeh it's weird how things get remembered.
Euro 96, which is remembered incredibly fondly, was basically one outstanding hour of football against the Dutch.
Venables got pelters for sticking with an our of form Shearer to begin with. Teddy Sheringham's entire England career was spent with journos saying somebody else should be playing instead - Wright, Owen, Ferdinand etc. We were proper crap against Switzerland in the opening game and drew. We beat Scotland and everybody remembers the glorious Gazza goal, but Scotland missed a penalty to make that game 1-1 - and Scotland were terrible that tournament even by their standsrds. Spain missed several chances in the first knockout which we won on penalties. Then we lost to Germany.
Italia 90, Bobby Robson remembered very fondly with time. He'd had a crap Euros in 88, got absolute wild abuse in the press, we spent that whole tournament bashing him for playing a back four when the rest of Europe had gone to a sweeper and he'd taken Paul Parker to do it. Talks of a player revolt forcing his hand. Terrible group stage with that dire game against Ireland, squeezed through by beating Egypt 1-0. Beat a crap Belgian side with a goal in the last second of extra time, somewhat fortunate against Cameroon after Howard Wilkinson fcked up the oppo scouting, and lost on pens to Germany. If you read One Night in Turin which was written live at the time, Robson gets absolutely roasted throughout as a complete dinosaur and the feeling is we got to the semi final despite him - now he's a national treasure.
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:21 - Jul 15 by BAWHoops
I'm not sure how you play Spain. Press them and come out swinging and they'll pick you off. Give them the ball and they'll kill you with 1000 passes.
The plan last night was obviously to keep it tight and use the subs to alter the game. Where the plan fell down was that Kane is obviously injured so we couldn't relieve any pressure with long balls up to him and we decided to start the second half 2 minutes later than Spain did.
18 months ago in Qatar we were phenomenal, I've never seen anything like it in a tournament from England. Absolutely swatting aside competent sides like Senegal and running a sword through fodder like Wales and Iran. Yet all anyone remembers from that tournament is Kane's penalty miss. International football is funny like that. We'll all remember Euro 2024 with our overhead kicks, last minute winners and The Killers yet we were awful for the majority of it. They nearly did it as well, nearly won the bloody thing in arguably Southgate's worst tournament.
Basically, tactics schamctics. International football is mostly about vibes despite the endless tactics blogs on The Athletic etc.
I thought the plan went wrong right at the start of the second half, I thought we did alright first half and kept them at bay. We actually pressed high start of the 2nd half maybe got carried away with Rodri going off but were played through and within 3 passes they were in and scored, Lamal started more inside which took Shaw out of the game as well. if we had stuck to the low block we'd have probably kept it at 0-0 for longer but ultimately I think Spain would have found a way to score
The next 2 years will be full of articles, podcasts etc looking at new ways of playing for England but it really just came down to a couple of tiny defensive mistakes which was the difference in the end.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:49 - Jul 15 with 1279 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:48 - Jul 15 by daveB
I thought the plan went wrong right at the start of the second half, I thought we did alright first half and kept them at bay. We actually pressed high start of the 2nd half maybe got carried away with Rodri going off but were played through and within 3 passes they were in and scored, Lamal started more inside which took Shaw out of the game as well. if we had stuck to the low block we'd have probably kept it at 0-0 for longer but ultimately I think Spain would have found a way to score
The next 2 years will be full of articles, podcasts etc looking at new ways of playing for England but it really just came down to a couple of tiny defensive mistakes which was the difference in the end.
They weren't concentrated and switched on enough at the start of the second half. Very, very annoying having got through the first half with a clean sheet intact to come out all sloppy and half arsed like that at the start of the second.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:52 - Jul 15 with 1268 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:37 - Jul 15 by Northernr
Yeh it's weird how things get remembered.
Euro 96, which is remembered incredibly fondly, was basically one outstanding hour of football against the Dutch.
Venables got pelters for sticking with an our of form Shearer to begin with. Teddy Sheringham's entire England career was spent with journos saying somebody else should be playing instead - Wright, Owen, Ferdinand etc. We were proper crap against Switzerland in the opening game and drew. We beat Scotland and everybody remembers the glorious Gazza goal, but Scotland missed a penalty to make that game 1-1 - and Scotland were terrible that tournament even by their standsrds. Spain missed several chances in the first knockout which we won on penalties. Then we lost to Germany.
Italia 90, Bobby Robson remembered very fondly with time. He'd had a crap Euros in 88, got absolute wild abuse in the press, we spent that whole tournament bashing him for playing a back four when the rest of Europe had gone to a sweeper and he'd taken Paul Parker to do it. Talks of a player revolt forcing his hand. Terrible group stage with that dire game against Ireland, squeezed through by beating Egypt 1-0. Beat a crap Belgian side with a goal in the last second of extra time, somewhat fortunate against Cameroon after Howard Wilkinson fcked up the oppo scouting, and lost on pens to Germany. If you read One Night in Turin which was written live at the time, Robson gets absolutely roasted throughout as a complete dinosaur and the feeling is we got to the semi final despite him - now he's a national treasure.
delve into every tournament and it's the same, 1998 lost to Romania in the group stage and left heroes as they almost beat Argentina. 86 World cup we were crap for 2 games heading home then due to Robson getting injured and Wilkins sent off he brought Beardsley and Reid in and we make films about the hand of god.
The golden Generation lost to every good side they played (France and Portugal) in 04 and Portugal again in 06, which is why I found the stick England got in this one especially early on all a bit mad, this tournament for me was very similar to Italia 90 some great moments that will last forever but also some really crap ones as well
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 17:09 - Jul 15 with 1218 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 16:49 - Jul 15 by Northernr
They weren't concentrated and switched on enough at the start of the second half. Very, very annoying having got through the first half with a clean sheet intact to come out all sloppy and half arsed like that at the start of the second.
Funny enough I said to Mrs P at H/T that if the Spain coach had anything about him that he would switch it up and get them at us as because for the last few years England have this QPR knack of falling asleep for the second half , this tournament guaranteed every second half we look a mess for 10-15 minutes
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 17:11 - Jul 15 with 1222 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 17:09 - Jul 15 by paulparker
Funny enough I said to Mrs P at H/T that if the Spain coach had anything about him that he would switch it up and get them at us as because for the last few years England have this QPR knack of falling asleep for the second half , this tournament guaranteed every second half we look a mess for 10-15 minutes
Yeh. Intensely annoying.
And, look, perhaps speaks to the bigger problem than the manager which is around mentality, weight of history and playing for England. If you take Southgate as true to his word (I know, I know, but let's play along for a moment) he says he didn't tell them or want them to sit back like they did. And yet they do it anyway, unlike when they play for their clubs.
This post has been edited by an administrator
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 17:35 - Jul 15 with 1162 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 17:11 - Jul 15 by Northernr
Yeh. Intensely annoying.
And, look, perhaps speaks to the bigger problem than the manager which is around mentality, weight of history and playing for England. If you take Southgate as true to his word (I know, I know, but let's play along for a moment) he says he didn't tell them or want them to sit back like they did. And yet they do it anyway, unlike when they play for their clubs.
This post has been edited by an administrator
Again, that isn't a Southgate phenomenon, we've been doing it for years. We did it against Portugal in '04 and '06, France in '04, Brazil in '02 as well, Italy in '12.
Gary Neville has talked about the players being aware of and discussing it when he was playing but they still found themselves pinned in and couldn't get out. He also talked about he and Hodgson talking to the players about it as coaches too.
Sven couldn't stop it, Capello couldn't stop it and Southgate hasn't either. It feels more pronounced with Southgate as ultimately he's played in more big knockout games and had bigger moments. There is no way he's actively telling them to retreat to their own box for 20, 30, 88 minutes at a time. No way. They just don't have the type of midfielders to wrestle the game back and keep the ball for sustained periods. Neither did Sven, neither did Capello.
Southgate will go and I don't necessarily think he should stay but nothing makes me believe Eddie Howe, Lee Carsley nor Graham Potter could stop that rot.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 17:54 - Jul 15 with 1094 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 17:35 - Jul 15 by Padulas_Shampoo
Again, that isn't a Southgate phenomenon, we've been doing it for years. We did it against Portugal in '04 and '06, France in '04, Brazil in '02 as well, Italy in '12.
Gary Neville has talked about the players being aware of and discussing it when he was playing but they still found themselves pinned in and couldn't get out. He also talked about he and Hodgson talking to the players about it as coaches too.
Sven couldn't stop it, Capello couldn't stop it and Southgate hasn't either. It feels more pronounced with Southgate as ultimately he's played in more big knockout games and had bigger moments. There is no way he's actively telling them to retreat to their own box for 20, 30, 88 minutes at a time. No way. They just don't have the type of midfielders to wrestle the game back and keep the ball for sustained periods. Neither did Sven, neither did Capello.
Southgate will go and I don't necessarily think he should stay but nothing makes me believe Eddie Howe, Lee Carsley nor Graham Potter could stop that rot.
Well I was laughing with/at somebody in the Crown last night giving it the biggun about Eddie Howe coming in and playing more attractive, attacking football. That's somebody who never had the misfortune of being at a game against his Bournemouth side. Achievement, through the roof, remarkable really from where they were to what they became. But basically because Howe looks like some angelic cherub, everybody thinks he promotes and plays super attractive, attacking, free flowing, lovely football. Bournemouth were one of the biggest shthouses going. You make him England manager he might do well, but when it comes to big tournament games against good sides it'll be all the same sit in, men behind the ball, time wasting, gamesmanship etc.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 17:59 - Jul 15 with 1077 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 17:54 - Jul 15 by Northernr
Well I was laughing with/at somebody in the Crown last night giving it the biggun about Eddie Howe coming in and playing more attractive, attacking football. That's somebody who never had the misfortune of being at a game against his Bournemouth side. Achievement, through the roof, remarkable really from where they were to what they became. But basically because Howe looks like some angelic cherub, everybody thinks he promotes and plays super attractive, attacking, free flowing, lovely football. Bournemouth were one of the biggest shthouses going. You make him England manager he might do well, but when it comes to big tournament games against good sides it'll be all the same sit in, men behind the ball, time wasting, gamesmanship etc.
exactly that, his team played that way in the champions league and were knocked out in the first round and that prat Tindall would come with him as well.
He's more attacking than Southgate though so I get the appeal
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:13 - Jul 15 with 1055 views
It is all very well going on about how to deal with Spain, etc, etc.....we need to get our own team right, starting with the team, tactics and making the right positive decisions before & during the match.
Sadly, the Manager, as I well thought, got most of it not right. He left players at home when they would of been a big plus if he had selected them, took players like Bowen when he is never good enough for that standard, over Grealish, no left footed left back until Shaw got fit!!, picked the wrong team mostly, tactics were not good (if the players don't do what he wants then they should not be picked), and much more.
Results were generally pretty poor overall against very average teams indeed and when we played a team that was any good (only Spain in my book, the others were either poor to pretty average) we folded - what Southgate said to the Team at HT I will never know but I know I would have told them to get started very quickly or get bitten in the bum!!
IMHO, I think we have enough good players to have won this, & the last Euro tournament against Italy, plus the World Cup semi-final against Croatia . We only got as far, in all of the Championships because of the lucky paths we got to the semi finals & finals.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:18 - Jul 15 with 1033 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:13 - Jul 15 by gazza1
It is all very well going on about how to deal with Spain, etc, etc.....we need to get our own team right, starting with the team, tactics and making the right positive decisions before & during the match.
Sadly, the Manager, as I well thought, got most of it not right. He left players at home when they would of been a big plus if he had selected them, took players like Bowen when he is never good enough for that standard, over Grealish, no left footed left back until Shaw got fit!!, picked the wrong team mostly, tactics were not good (if the players don't do what he wants then they should not be picked), and much more.
Results were generally pretty poor overall against very average teams indeed and when we played a team that was any good (only Spain in my book, the others were either poor to pretty average) we folded - what Southgate said to the Team at HT I will never know but I know I would have told them to get started very quickly or get bitten in the bum!!
IMHO, I think we have enough good players to have won this, & the last Euro tournament against Italy, plus the World Cup semi-final against Croatia . We only got as far, in all of the Championships because of the lucky paths we got to the semi finals & finals.
Spain were the only team that beat us.
Is it not possible that they have even better players? Hint - they do.
Before a ball was kicked how many England players would they have had in their lineup given the chance? I'd say two - Bellingham and Kane. The other 9 I reckon they'd be perfectly happy to keep their own.
France, Germany, Portugal very similar stories. no more than 2/3 players. Everyone has good / great players at this level. Everyone.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:25 - Jul 15 with 1006 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:18 - Jul 15 by Padulas_Shampoo
Spain were the only team that beat us.
Is it not possible that they have even better players? Hint - they do.
Before a ball was kicked how many England players would they have had in their lineup given the chance? I'd say two - Bellingham and Kane. The other 9 I reckon they'd be perfectly happy to keep their own.
France, Germany, Portugal very similar stories. no more than 2/3 players. Everyone has good / great players at this level. Everyone.
I do not necessarily agree that we would not have got some of our boys (4/5) in the Spain team but if you are right (and you are not) it was even more important to have a Manager that good and not an average, very average, like GS.
I would suggest that no Premier club would or will take GS as their Manager when he gets replaced, that tells a story.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:37 - Jul 15 with 972 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:25 - Jul 15 by gazza1
I do not necessarily agree that we would not have got some of our boys (4/5) in the Spain team but if you are right (and you are not) it was even more important to have a Manager that good and not an average, very average, like GS.
I would suggest that no Premier club would or will take GS as their Manager when he gets replaced, that tells a story.
Interested to hear which 5 players you'd leave out of the Spain side for English players?
International managers bear no resemblance to club managers. Capello one of the greatest club managers of all time did nothing at international level for instance. Jogi Low won a world cup then never had any interest at club level. Didier Deschamps finished 10th in the French league and was sacked before getting to the Euros finals, winning a World Cup, then getting straight back to the World Cup final.
I'm not really defending Southgate... I think he's had his time and it's been good, nearly great. But all this stuff about how incredible England players are these days winds me up. There are plenty of international teams around that look just as good as England written down.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:43 - Jul 15 with 955 views
Loads of whataboutery on this thread trying to defend Southgate but it’s not like he hasn’t had the chance to win anything is it? He’s had a lot of luck that other managers didn’t have like sendings off in knockout games and had some very fortunate routes too late in tournaments.
Time for a change.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:53 - Jul 15 with 939 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:43 - Jul 15 by Ned_Kennedys
Loads of whataboutery on this thread trying to defend Southgate but it’s not like he hasn’t had the chance to win anything is it? He’s had a lot of luck that other managers didn’t have like sendings off in knockout games and had some very fortunate routes too late in tournaments.
Time for a change.
That's fine. I've not once suggested he should stay.
I just think it's right that he gets credit for what he's done. We lost to Iceland before he got here. And before that were humiliated by Italy and Uruguay. This tournament was the first time we came across a 'decent' team outside of Wembley and actually progressed.... ever.
Robson and Venables (god rest their souls) get vaunted for what they did and neither one of them did what Southgate just has. Southgate actually beat Germany at Wembley (Venables didn't) and got to two Euros finals (Venables nor Robson did). Robson got a similar draw in '90 to Southgate's incredibly fortunate draws yet somehow he's a legendary England manager whereas it's Southgate's fault we didn't win one.
Somehow people claim Southgate has had a squad so talented it would have been harder to not win this tournament than to win it. It's absolute garbage. He had a team good enough to compete and ultimately he competed.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:53 - Jul 15 with 934 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:37 - Jul 15 by Padulas_Shampoo
Interested to hear which 5 players you'd leave out of the Spain side for English players?
International managers bear no resemblance to club managers. Capello one of the greatest club managers of all time did nothing at international level for instance. Jogi Low won a world cup then never had any interest at club level. Didier Deschamps finished 10th in the French league and was sacked before getting to the Euros finals, winning a World Cup, then getting straight back to the World Cup final.
I'm not really defending Southgate... I think he's had his time and it's been good, nearly great. But all this stuff about how incredible England players are these days winds me up. There are plenty of international teams around that look just as good as England written down.
Pickford, Walker, Stones, Saka.......but before the tournament Shaw, Kane, Rice.....
Venables did ok as a top manager both Club & Country, I'm sure there are more.
GS is indefensible, some of the stuff he did was so poor, starting with his squad he picked and the players he left out didn't help whatsoever, the tactics, team selections and substitutions. And we have a very good squad of players if they are played the way that they should be doing. GS is the luckiest England Manager ever with his way through to semi final and cup finals, this Euro's he won 2 matches, during normal time, in 7 against poor to average teams, scored 7 goals - not much difference to the last tournaments. I am not saying it is all GS fault but he is the biggest offender imho.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:58 - Jul 15 with 922 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:37 - Jul 15 by Padulas_Shampoo
Interested to hear which 5 players you'd leave out of the Spain side for English players?
International managers bear no resemblance to club managers. Capello one of the greatest club managers of all time did nothing at international level for instance. Jogi Low won a world cup then never had any interest at club level. Didier Deschamps finished 10th in the French league and was sacked before getting to the Euros finals, winning a World Cup, then getting straight back to the World Cup final.
I'm not really defending Southgate... I think he's had his time and it's been good, nearly great. But all this stuff about how incredible England players are these days winds me up. There are plenty of international teams around that look just as good as England written down.
I’d argue that Foden, Bellingham, Stones would walk into the Spanish team, maybe Kane for Morata but they’ve both looked immobile.
I’d even argue that with how dodgy Unai Simon looked all tournament they might even take Scrappy Doo Pickford.
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