| EGM on 21:21 - Aug 4 with 3771 views | pioneer |
I remain in a state of confusion over how to vote. I understand the predicament…major cash flow problems. The proposed solution appears to increase costs through the fixed interests payments over an undefined period.
I think most folks on here agree that the current board are out of their depth when it comes to running a football club yet the proposal does nothing to change that other than provide time to find new investors even though it sounded like the efforts made so far have produced little prospect of this, or of improved management of the club in the interim.
It would have been nice to know what funds have come in and continue to come in from things like the Brierly transfer as it seems player sales and add ons have been what we have been running on for the past few seasons.
Increasing costs to provide more time for a failing board to continue running the club is concerning. Also the proposals central focus is about securing investment of the two individuals involved while the investments of everyone else at the ‘fan owned club’ remain unsecured (or even less secured). |  | |  |
| EGM on 22:17 - Aug 4 with 3620 views | SalwaDale |
| EGM on 21:21 - Aug 4 by pioneer |
I remain in a state of confusion over how to vote. I understand the predicament…major cash flow problems. The proposed solution appears to increase costs through the fixed interests payments over an undefined period.
I think most folks on here agree that the current board are out of their depth when it comes to running a football club yet the proposal does nothing to change that other than provide time to find new investors even though it sounded like the efforts made so far have produced little prospect of this, or of improved management of the club in the interim.
It would have been nice to know what funds have come in and continue to come in from things like the Brierly transfer as it seems player sales and add ons have been what we have been running on for the past few seasons.
Increasing costs to provide more time for a failing board to continue running the club is concerning. Also the proposals central focus is about securing investment of the two individuals involved while the investments of everyone else at the ‘fan owned club’ remain unsecured (or even less secured). |
I agree with that.
On the other hand I worry that a no vote will see the board chuck their toys out of the pram and sell to whoever, leaving us in a Steve Dale type situation.
Rock
Shareholders
Hard place [Post edited 4 Aug 2023 22:20]
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| EGM on 22:18 - Aug 4 with 3619 views | RAFCBLUE |
| EGM on 18:58 - Aug 4 by AtThePeake |
For comparison, Chester and Darlington are fairly similar sized clubs to ourselves historically, completely fan-owned and trust-operated and both finished in the top 10 in the National League North last season, so it's not like we'd have to drop to Bury's level to make that model work.
I want us to be competing at the highest level possible, but I'd rather do that knowing the future of the club is secure. So if the highest level possible for us at this moment without constantly worrying about the next Matt Southall or Steve Dale is to be a really strong sixth tier outfit that's community led, fan-owned and sustainable, then to me that's far preferable to being a basket case fifth tier outfit that seems to lurch from crisis to crisis. |
When Morton House first emerged in April 2021 ATP, I thought that was the only place we could/would end up when Alexander Jarvis eventually spilled his guts to the Manchester Evening News about the number of shares that had already been bought for over £1m under the radar.
The Trust led model is certainly possible as Exeter City have shown even higher up than either Chester or Darlington who you mention.
Our problem has been and is that there has never been one standout shareholder in virtually our entire history. When that standout shareholder becomes your Trust you have more change of staving off the ne'er-do-wells who loiter around vulnerable football clubs.
Back in 2000 we only had 142,712 shares and no one party with over 20%.
By June 2021 there were over 500,000 shares and Andrew Kilpatrick had over 20%.
No one since has had over 20%. Even the original articles split shareholdings equally and the failed takeover only manifested because of a collective behavior by six individuals holding shares.
Exeter's Trust got to 51% in some very difficult circumstances in 2003, much worse than where where we are now and they have made a real success of it but it has taken them collectively 20 years. They have an average crowd of 4,000 and net assets of £6m.
Chester and Darlington had no choice in the matter having had bad owners, Stephen Vaughan and George Reynolds respectively. Bury as well had to start again after a succession of bad owners.
Our Trust is an amazing supporters led vehicle excellently run by volunteers; the counter to all the arguments about the risks posed by individuals is to have the Trust as the main shareholder but that then takes time and money to inject and the whole debate becomes circular.
There are very good points made in all quarters but the conflict between legal ownership and voting and co-operative voting is the real crossroads.
Could a Trust led model work in Rochdale like at Exeter over the next 20 years? Perhaps but it would need funding somehow. |  |
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| EGM on 08:21 - Aug 5 with 3404 views | electricblue |
| EGM on 18:33 - Aug 2 by Dalenet |
The club is ignoring said emails |
Who at the club is responsible for the emails.
If they are found to be ignoring them on purpose then a sacking offence...
The Chair and the COO need to get a grip of these type of situations. |  |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| EGM on 09:51 - Aug 5 with 3261 views | tony_roch975 |
| EGM on 22:18 - Aug 4 by RAFCBLUE |
When Morton House first emerged in April 2021 ATP, I thought that was the only place we could/would end up when Alexander Jarvis eventually spilled his guts to the Manchester Evening News about the number of shares that had already been bought for over £1m under the radar.
The Trust led model is certainly possible as Exeter City have shown even higher up than either Chester or Darlington who you mention.
Our problem has been and is that there has never been one standout shareholder in virtually our entire history. When that standout shareholder becomes your Trust you have more change of staving off the ne'er-do-wells who loiter around vulnerable football clubs.
Back in 2000 we only had 142,712 shares and no one party with over 20%.
By June 2021 there were over 500,000 shares and Andrew Kilpatrick had over 20%.
No one since has had over 20%. Even the original articles split shareholdings equally and the failed takeover only manifested because of a collective behavior by six individuals holding shares.
Exeter's Trust got to 51% in some very difficult circumstances in 2003, much worse than where where we are now and they have made a real success of it but it has taken them collectively 20 years. They have an average crowd of 4,000 and net assets of £6m.
Chester and Darlington had no choice in the matter having had bad owners, Stephen Vaughan and George Reynolds respectively. Bury as well had to start again after a succession of bad owners.
Our Trust is an amazing supporters led vehicle excellently run by volunteers; the counter to all the arguments about the risks posed by individuals is to have the Trust as the main shareholder but that then takes time and money to inject and the whole debate becomes circular.
There are very good points made in all quarters but the conflict between legal ownership and voting and co-operative voting is the real crossroads.
Could a Trust led model work in Rochdale like at Exeter over the next 20 years? Perhaps but it would need funding somehow. |
Good points, especially about our shareholding history and Exeter City's fan-owned model with their larger crowds and assets than Dale; they also benefit from a stream of Academy player sales partly because geographically there is little competition.
Exeter City also had bad owners (criminal convictions against former owners) and their Trust were able to buy the majority shareholder out in 2003 for only £20,000. Interestingly they still don't own St James Park but lease it from the Council.
TS and others make some very fair and honest points about preferring to be a fan owned lower tier club but personally I have neither the skills nor desire to run a football club so I'm going for the investor route for now. If the proverbial hits the fan, they might get their way. | |
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| EGM on 10:54 - Aug 5 with 3134 views | TalkingSutty |
| EGM on 09:51 - Aug 5 by tony_roch975 |
Good points, especially about our shareholding history and Exeter City's fan-owned model with their larger crowds and assets than Dale; they also benefit from a stream of Academy player sales partly because geographically there is little competition.
Exeter City also had bad owners (criminal convictions against former owners) and their Trust were able to buy the majority shareholder out in 2003 for only £20,000. Interestingly they still don't own St James Park but lease it from the Council.
TS and others make some very fair and honest points about preferring to be a fan owned lower tier club but personally I have neither the skills nor desire to run a football club so I'm going for the investor route for now. If the proverbial hits the fan, they might get their way. |
I don't want to get my way, it would have to be something that the whole fan base really embraced, it's not about me. If there wasn't a collective will then it wouldn't be even worth considering, and there isn't a collective will, so i realise its a non starter.
For every Frank Rothwell there are dozens of shysters and they are all looking to profit. Once they get hold of the club its gone and so have any monies that we might have in the stadium, which would then make the possibility of a Phoenix Club or the fans stepping in even harder. The Chairman might strike gold and find the ideal investor but you would have thought that might have happened by now if there was somebody out there.
The only other option might be to get the club running properly but the Chairman stated at the forum that even if we had home crowds of 5000 ( double the crowds) we still couldn't manage, such a defeatist attitude. It seems there's no point in running the club properly then..just bringing in a investor is the only option! Imagine if we got the community funding, and I know it's a crazy idea but we could even launch our own club lottery similar to Goldbond...that's another promise that hasn't been delivered. [Post edited 5 Aug 2023 11:10]
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| EGM on 11:08 - Aug 5 with 3106 views | electricblue |
| EGM on 08:38 - Aug 3 by TomRAFC |
No timescale or figure has been presented, but here's what's been said so far.
The loan would be repaid if the club receives investment/sells the remaining shares/the trust application for funds to buy the pitch is successful etc
If these never happen and the club is liquidated, then Gauge and Knight would be front of the queue to be repayed with the money made on the sale of the ground.
Nothing has been mentioned about them potentially owning the ground, if they aren't repaid.
Hopefully all questions will be answered tonight, and the answers will be made publicly available, to ensure those who can't attend the forum/wish to cast a proxy vote at the EGM will be equally informed. |
And where those questions answered! | |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| EGM on 11:16 - Aug 5 with 3084 views | electricblue |
| EGM on 09:05 - Aug 3 by TalkingSutty |
That's it in a nutshell. It's not difficult to see what's happening here and what motivation would they have to progress the club, if suitable investors aren't found? None. Why can't they go down the other route and start running the club properly? I don't see many other clubs in such a desperate predicament, they don't all have wealthy backers neither.
I contacted the Trust via email a few weeks ago outlining my concerns regarding the way the club is being run and asked for a EGM to be called to remove Simon Gauge. The reply I received supported the Chairman and insinuated that we are now seeing improvement in certain aspects of the club. As a individual supporter what else can i do when the Supporters Trust are supportive of the Chairman? They also pointed out that the Trust Director had no reasons for concern.
Not only do questions need asking of those running the club but also the apparent impotence of the supporters trust who are conspicuous by their absence when it comes to the concerns being outlined in this thread, i suspect the majority of posters are also members of the trust. As the major shareholder, the members are entitled to feel very disappointed about the lack of direction and representation in respect of this EGM.
I can't be the only member of the Trust who has emailed them to voice my concerns? [Post edited 3 Aug 2023 9:45]
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The trust can only back the Chairman if its members agree.
A simple yes or no ballot would answer that....
Looking at the head table just before the FF came live was not a good sight at all in fact Murray had the look of I dont want to be here and I hope it is over soon....
The body language was shocking and that oused negativity..... | |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| EGM on 11:29 - Aug 5 with 3042 views | TalkingSutty |
| EGM on 11:16 - Aug 5 by electricblue |
The trust can only back the Chairman if its members agree.
A simple yes or no ballot would answer that....
Looking at the head table just before the FF came live was not a good sight at all in fact Murray had the look of I dont want to be here and I hope it is over soon....
The body language was shocking and that oused negativity..... |
It shouldn't come down to backing the Chairman or the Directors. As a fanbase and a supporters trust we should all be capable of looking at the overall state of the club and coming to our own conclusions. I'm not sure that finding a investor is the only option we have here, i think it's been decided that it's the easiest and preferable option. A club that has been neglected is obviously going to run out of money and that's what we currently have. It doesn't mean it's not retrievable though. | | | |
| EGM on 11:40 - Aug 5 with 3011 views | electricblue |
| EGM on 11:29 - Aug 5 by TalkingSutty |
It shouldn't come down to backing the Chairman or the Directors. As a fanbase and a supporters trust we should all be capable of looking at the overall state of the club and coming to our own conclusions. I'm not sure that finding a investor is the only option we have here, i think it's been decided that it's the easiest and preferable option. A club that has been neglected is obviously going to run out of money and that's what we currently have. It doesn't mean it's not retrievable though. |
I concur but it is possibly heading that way..
I was originally against the loan as for many reasons people have mentioned but we need the money to survive or try to..
But i have pracically no faith in the BoD as they have done very little in reducing the outgoings...
Something needs to be done and quick or the club will vanish..... | |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| EGM on 11:59 - Aug 5 with 2964 views | TalkingSutty |
| EGM on 11:40 - Aug 5 by electricblue |
I concur but it is possibly heading that way..
I was originally against the loan as for many reasons people have mentioned but we need the money to survive or try to..
But i have pracically no faith in the BoD as they have done very little in reducing the outgoings...
Something needs to be done and quick or the club will vanish..... |
Yes, I think we all know that and the subject has been exhausted. We've all had our say and none of us know how this will play out if the truth be known. I know for a fact the fans have the best interests of the club at heart irrespective of how they vote so it's certainly nothing to fall out about. Anyway we have a bit of respite today, time to concentrate on the football👍 [Post edited 5 Aug 2023 12:01]
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| EGM on 12:05 - Aug 5 with 2940 views | foreverhopefulDale |
| EGM on 11:08 - Aug 5 by electricblue |
And where those questions answered! |
At the fan's forum, if indeed they were answered. |  |
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| EGM on 12:07 - Aug 5 with 2925 views | 442Dale |
| EGM on 11:59 - Aug 5 by TalkingSutty |
Yes, I think we all know that and the subject has been exhausted. We've all had our say and none of us know how this will play out if the truth be known. I know for a fact the fans have the best interests of the club at heart irrespective of how they vote so it's certainly nothing to fall out about. Anyway we have a bit of respite today, time to concentrate on the football👍 [Post edited 5 Aug 2023 12:01]
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The football is rightly going to take centre stage today. The manager couldn’t have done any more to lift a fanbase which has been let down for far too long.
Hopefully today will see a continuation of the positive signs seen on the pitch and we can put aside the issues created by the poor decision making by those involved off it. |  |
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| EGM on 12:12 - Aug 5 with 2891 views | TalkingSutty |
| EGM on 12:07 - Aug 5 by 442Dale |
The football is rightly going to take centre stage today. The manager couldn’t have done any more to lift a fanbase which has been let down for far too long.
Hopefully today will see a continuation of the positive signs seen on the pitch and we can put aside the issues created by the poor decision making by those involved off it. |
If ever a fan base deserved a boost it's ours. Three points today would give us all a lift, and i include the Chairman, Directors and club staff in that. A draw would also be acceptable but obviously its a win we crave. | | | |
| EGM on 12:20 - Aug 5 with 2839 views | SuddenLad |
| EGM on 11:40 - Aug 5 by electricblue |
I concur but it is possibly heading that way..
I was originally against the loan as for many reasons people have mentioned but we need the money to survive or try to..
But i have pracically no faith in the BoD as they have done very little in reducing the outgoings...
Something needs to be done and quick or the club will vanish..... |
That's the reason we are being asked to vote. This situation can't go on or we won't have a club to support.
There is absolutely no other plan, or option in place at this time, which will offer the immediate financial security needed.
Others have eloquently proffered their ideas and ways forward and there may well be merit in those ideas, but we have to deal with the here and now.
If we are to explore other fan-led solutions, there needs to be a massive effort to mobilise a suitable and well-organised team of volunteers, with relevant skills. That can't be done overnight, but if there are those who can come together to do it, then brilliant, but it's a long way off.
Time is of the essence. The vote is underway and the EGM next week. Think about it. |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| EGM on 13:13 - Aug 5 with 2720 views | 49thseason |
| EGM on 12:20 - Aug 5 by SuddenLad |
That's the reason we are being asked to vote. This situation can't go on or we won't have a club to support.
There is absolutely no other plan, or option in place at this time, which will offer the immediate financial security needed.
Others have eloquently proffered their ideas and ways forward and there may well be merit in those ideas, but we have to deal with the here and now.
If we are to explore other fan-led solutions, there needs to be a massive effort to mobilise a suitable and well-organised team of volunteers, with relevant skills. That can't be done overnight, but if there are those who can come together to do it, then brilliant, but it's a long way off.
Time is of the essence. The vote is underway and the EGM next week. Think about it. |
Actually we should be doing lots of the things we suggested already, and the forthcoming vote should be a slam dunk despite there being a distinct lack of actual current financial information available. Permitting the board to lend money to the club isnt a difficult decision in itself, the real questions are , " is the weekly loss being reduced"? " how long before we are financially back at square one if no investor comes to our rescue"? The sense of inertia is creating a vacuum that we are all filling with our personal takes on the situation, perhaps getting back to football will be good for all of us, and who knows maybe there is a Texan Billionaire whose distant relatives came from Rochdale who wants to buy the club? |  | | |
| EGM on 13:39 - Aug 5 with 2658 views | EllDale |
Interesting clash this afternoon between a former Football League on its uppers and a team on the up seemingly awash with Kuwaiti money. | | | |
| EGM on 18:36 - Aug 5 with 2434 views | electricblue |
| EGM on 11:29 - Aug 5 by TalkingSutty |
It shouldn't come down to backing the Chairman or the Directors. As a fanbase and a supporters trust we should all be capable of looking at the overall state of the club and coming to our own conclusions. I'm not sure that finding a investor is the only option we have here, i think it's been decided that it's the easiest and preferable option. A club that has been neglected is obviously going to run out of money and that's what we currently have. It doesn't mean it's not retrievable though. |
With this BoD currently in charge nothing will change.... | |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| EGM on 17:39 - Aug 8 with 1994 views | D_Alien |
To gain entry to the EGM tomorrow evening, will proof of being a shareholder be required at the door?
Would receipt of the notice via email/letter be sufficient or is the share certificate required?
What about those who haven't received notice yet? |  |
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| EGM on 18:00 - Aug 8 with 1944 views | turnthescrew |
One of the Directors told me last week that ID would be required when attending. I would have thought the usual methods of driving licence, passport etc would cover that. | | | |
| EGM on 18:16 - Aug 8 with 1906 views | 442Dale |
| EGM on 18:00 - Aug 8 by turnthescrew |
One of the Directors told me last week that ID would be required when attending. I would have thought the usual methods of driving licence, passport etc would cover that. |
ID wasn’t required last year. They checked your name off on the list and you had to sign in. | |
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| EGM on 18:26 - Aug 8 with 1890 views | NorthernDale |
RAFCBLUE, may I ask, if you know, how did Exeter's trust transform its control and transformed the club over twenty years. Moreover is it a system that we could adopt to transform the club over a number of years, in the same vane as Exeter. | | | |
| EGM on 18:29 - Aug 8 with 1874 views | D_Alien |
| EGM on 18:00 - Aug 8 by turnthescrew |
One of the Directors told me last week that ID would be required when attending. I would have thought the usual methods of driving licence, passport etc would cover that. |
One wonders why this hasn't been specified, via the email or letter, for those who've received them
Or on the OS notice
Actually, i'm not surprised
[Post edited 8 Aug 2023 18:35]
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| EGM on 18:47 - Aug 8 with 1819 views | Dalenet |
| EGM on 18:29 - Aug 8 by D_Alien |
One wonders why this hasn't been specified, via the email or letter, for those who've received them
Or on the OS notice
Actually, i'm not surprised
[Post edited 8 Aug 2023 18:35]
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What did it say on the pack sent to the random sample of shareholders?
Did anybody find out how many votes they need to pass this resolution? Is it 75% of all shares 75% of those that attend/or issueca proxy, or is it a simple majority? | | | |
| EGM on 18:54 - Aug 8 with 1795 views | 442Dale |
| EGM on 19:57 - Aug 1 by IOMDale |
Could the email be copy and pasted here or would the Trust prefer not? |
re. the Trust newsletter being available for all supporters to view, this was raised at the supporters meetings back in April/May. The following was agreed:
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/2023/05/action-plan-on-trust-feedback/
<<“ Q: Put the content from the newsletter on the website after 48 hrs / 7 days so it it still exclusive to Trust members but it still put out in the public domain
A: Following this suggestion, we have started doing this with our May newsletter published on the website on Thursday. We have always liked the newsletter being an exclusive benefit for members but if as suggested we give it a few days, then we can maintain that benefit for members whilst updating supporters as a whole.”>>
The May newsletter was available on the Trust website on the 4th. June on the 6th and July on the 5th.
The August newsletter was emailed to members on the 1st, so as it’s now seven days later it would be expected to be online today. By doing so it would give all supporters and shareholders further information and a better understanding about the current situation at the club. | |
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