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Well, the money markets didn't like the mini budget. I met Liz Truss in a hotel in Monmouth a few years ago. She said her solution to pensioner poverty would be to feed them on Pedigree Chum. Not only would this save a lot of money, it would give them shiny coats and a nice cold nose.
"Eurozone debt ratios are on average higher than in the UK. Primary deficits are mostly comparable even after Kwasi Kwarteng’s mini-budget. Energy rescue packages are similar in scale. The eurozone is entering a recession that will be at least as deep, if not deeper. The €-coin measure of underlying growth is currently weaker than during the depths of the European debt crisis a decade ago.
The British Government is at least capable of doing U-turns. The institutional framework of monetary union is an order of magnitude more dysfunctional. Let us not forget the policy death march of Europe’s Lost Decade: a stubborn reliance on ‘internal devaluations’ and austerity waterboarding that prolonged the misery.
The European Systemic Risk Board has issued its first General Warning since the body’s creation after the Lehman crisis, flagging “severe risks to financial stability”.
The ESBR said Europe’s credit system is coming under threat from multiple directions. The energy shock is colliding with a worldwide interest rate shock just as the European housing cycle rolls over.
“These risks may materialise simultaneously, thereby interacting with each other and mutually amplifying their impact,” it said.
Michael Wilson, Morgan Stanley’s global equity guru, said world liquidity has already shrunk by $4 trillion since peaking in March, as measured by M2 in dollars. Money figures are now in the “danger zone” where financial accidents begin to happen. “This is how it starts,” he said.
Vanishing liquidity is disciplining any country seen to be living beyond its means, which is why it was so unwise of Liz Truss to push her fiscal luck. Mr Wilson said ructions in the UK's gilts market are the canary in the global coal mine. Other countries will be sanctioned in turn and other central banks may have to intervene to save the day.
Ambrose Evans-Pritchard 4 October 2022 - 4:00pm Ambrose Evans-Pritchard President of the European Central Bank Christine Lagarde The European Central Bank crossed many lines a long time ago, and is already a captive fiscal agent Credit: Thierry Monasse via Getty Images Europe
Schadenfreude in European capitals is ill-advised. A string of states will face their own rude awakening soon enough as global liquidity drains away and financial conditions tighten.
Eurozone debt ratios are on average higher than in the UK. Primary deficits are mostly comparable even after Kwasi Kwarteng’s mini-budget. Energy rescue packages are similar in scale. The eurozone is entering a recession that will be at least as deep, if not deeper. The €-coin measure of underlying growth is currently weaker than during the depths of the European debt crisis a decade ago.
The British Government is at least capable of doing U-turns. The institutional framework of monetary union is an order of magnitude more dysfunctional. Let us not forget the policy death march of Europe’s Lost Decade: a stubborn reliance on ‘internal devaluations’ and austerity waterboarding that prolonged the misery.
The European Systemic Risk Board has issued its first General Warning since the body’s creation after the Lehman crisis, flagging “severe risks to financial stability”.
The ESBR said Europe’s credit system is coming under threat from multiple directions. The energy shock is colliding with a worldwide interest rate shock just as the European housing cycle rolls over.
“These risks may materialise simultaneously, thereby interacting with each other and mutually amplifying their impact,” it said.
Michael Wilson, Morgan Stanley’s global equity guru, said world liquidity has already shrunk by $4 trillion since peaking in March, as measured by M2 in dollars. Money figures are now in the “danger zone” where financial accidents begin to happen. “This is how it starts,” he said.
Vanishing liquidity is disciplining any country seen to be living beyond its means, which is why it was so unwise of Liz Truss to push her fiscal luck. Mr Wilson said ructions in the UK's gilts market are the canary in the global coal mine. Other countries will be sanctioned in turn and other central banks may have to intervene to save the day.
Yes, the Bank of England has been forced to rescue an impetuous Chancellor but it has not yet crossed the line into fiscal dominance, or reverted to quantitative easing. Whether or not it does so will be determined by events this month. What may instead occur is that the Bank of England emerges as the credible backbone of the British economic structure.
The European Central Bank crossed many lines a long time ago and is already a captive fiscal agent. It is currently buying Italian bonds on a large scale to prevent borrowing costs spiralling out of control, even though eurozone inflation is 10pc.
The Italian bail-out is not a one-off liquidity measure in extremis. It amounts to continuous monetary financing of a budget deficit. Italy would face a full-blown debt crisis in current circumstances if the ECB even hinted at the withdrawal of this backstop.
“Where fiscal dominance is concerned, the eurozone is much further down the road than the UK. Italy exhausted its fiscal space long ago,” said Robin Brooks, chief economist at the Institute of International Finance.
Italy’s 10-year yields surged to 4.9pc amid contagion from the British mini-budget. They have since dropped back to 4.2pc but this is still untenable for a country that combines a public debt ratio of 151pc, a fiscal deficit of 6pc (IMF data), chronically-low growth, and an incoming hard-Right coalition that campaigned on its own version of Trussonomics.
“At this level of yields, it would not take much to get Italy into trouble. Spreads are no longer the issue. The level of rates is,” said Ruben Segura-Cayuela from Bank of America.
He warned that Giorgia Meloni risks setting off “dangerous dynamics” if her government backs away from an earlier national commitment to achieve a ‘primary’ budget surplus. Bank of America says any misstep could force the ECB to activate its untested new bail-out tool (TPI) within weeks.
The eurozone’s doom-loop of sovereign states and commercial banks taking each other down in a destructive vortex has been in remission. It has not gone away. The ECB’s QE has kept it alive. It encouraged southern European banks to buy their own country’s debt to earn easy money on the carry trade. They now face mark-to-market losses on these holdings, straining capital ratios.
Germany is splashing €200bn on its energy package, of which roughly €150bn will come from borrowing. The German state can afford it; others cannot. The political fall-out is toxic.
Germany has once again chosen to flout the principle of collective EU action and go it alone in a crisis, prompting protests from Italy’s Mario Draghi and the wrath of the European Commission. As always, Brussels has its own empire-building agenda, aiming to capitalise on the energy shock to entrench the precedent of joint debt issuance and advance the ideological cause of fiscal union.
France has mostly escaped market scrutiny even though the International Monetary Fund’s Fiscal Monitor shows that its public debt is 113pc of GDP - viz 88pc for the UK - and that its public finances are on the worst trajectory of the OECD Club. French fiscal policies through the 2020s are as expansive as Trussonomics.
The retirement age is still just 62. Emmanuel Macron wants to raise it to 65 to head off a long-term pensions crisis but has lost his parliamentary majority and faces entrenched resistance.
The country’s budget watchdog has slammed his 2023 budget and called for action to restore fiscal safety buffers before the next shock hits. It said the debt ratio risks rising even further over the next five years.
Phillipe Gudin from Barclays said Mr Macron is relying on implausible assumptions of French, European, and global growth. Early warning data show that the French economy is already sliding into recession. This is likely to push the deficit to 5.7pc next year.
Gas and electricity prices have essentially been frozen under the bouclier tarifaire, shielding rich and poor alike from Putin’s energy war. Electricity bills will rise just 15pc in January 2023. Mr Macron has also held down petrol prices by 30 cents a litre even though there is no global oil shock. These subsidies have flattered France’s inflation rate but they are exactly what the IMF says you should not do.
Home-made nuclear power makes these subsidies less ruinously expensive than they would be for some countries. However, 32 of France’s 54 reactors are out of service. EDF is buying power on the European market, a fair chunk from the UK via interconnectors, often at exorbitant day-ahead prices.
Mr Gudin thinks the energy bail-out will approach €100bn over 2022- 2023. “We think the cost of these measures could have been minimised through better targeting low income households and better incentives to reduce energy consumption,” he said.
It is pitiful when journalists gripe that their own country has been singled out unfairly in a market storm. So let me be clear: the UK deserved its punishment on September 23.
What is true, is that much of the financial establishment and the world’s liberal press is viscerally-hostile to Brexit. This colours commentary. By the same token, they are too willing to overlook failures of the European Project until it hits them in the face.
When the first tremors of the global financial crisis began in 2007, Europeans dismissed the stress as an Anglo-Saxon problem and a deformity of speculative capitalism. Northern Rock looked like a uniquely British debacle. Europe’s leaders and media continued to think that the deflating debt bubble had almost nothing to do with them through most of 2008.
It was only when Lehman Brothers and AIG collapsed that they suddenly understood that European banks were on the hook for America’s subprime debt. Even then they ridiculed warnings that they faced their own ‘subprime’ disaster in Club Med sovereign debt.
They did not understand that they too had been lured into the great global credit boom of the early noughties. Nor did they anticipate that the structure of monetary union would leave them less able to cope with the consequences."
Just to reiterate - if anyone's still following this thread - what I said earlier about the scandalous financial reality of fiat currencies, inflation and debt; US national debt now stands at $31 trillion. That's right: thirty one trillion dollars. How is this a remotely sustainable approach? The entire financial system needs a complete root and branch overhaul and a return to either the gold standard, or, as I have suggested, a bitcoin standard. But limiting the power of banks and making them reserve-only lenders would be a start.
WARNING! Contains points of agreement: Viewer discretion advised!
I agree we need to develop our own fossil fuel projects where possible. Truss' licensing round a good start >>But the way licences are handed out means even if we make more of our fossil fuels available for extraction, private companies will be able to sell the stuff to whoever they choose, so, not necessarily to the UK
You have hit on a core point of the green lobby on some of your nuclear criticisms. Impose as many regulations as possible to make it expensive as possible or impose negatives on alternatives. Restrict their funding access while encouraging and subsiding alternatives as much as possible >> The "green lobby" would need to have a House of Commons majority to impose regulations such as those you mention. >> Fossil fuels have always been subsidised multiples more than renewables. As for nuclear subsidies, the government just stumped up £100m to make Sizewell C more attractive to EDF. We paid £50m just to build a wall round Hinckley C, ironically to protect it from the world’s second highest tidal range. Hmm, I wonder how we could’ve put that huge tidal range to use…
Of course France did alter this when it was needed...Aug 8 (Reuters) - "France's nuclear power regulator has extended temporary waivers allowing five power stations to continue discharging hot water into rivers"
The last time UK built a reservoir was in 1991 so maybe it's about time we did that. Rain is not something we are short of >> A very good point about the reservoirs, although I believe one has just been finished somewhere in the south east. Now, if we just create some pairs of reservoirs - one higher than the other - we would have the potential to build more pumped storage energy solutions.
Labour say 70% will be wind and solar. But they will need to have ready 100% of energy at any one time from not being wind or solar in case it is dark or too windy or not windy enough then we have no wind power. If it's not sunny then we don't have solar power as the grid can't rely on battery power there. Not even remotely close >> There are solar power stations in operation now which store energy in molten salt and provide power during the hours of darkness. Solar panels work when it is cloudy, mine have literally been doing that today, although unobstructed sunlight is obviously better. Wind energy and solar energy can also be "stored" by pumping water uphill. The Canary Island of El Hierro does this. Battery storage has also moved on a lot, this vanadium flow battery is already grid-connected and can supply enough juice for 200,000 people! https://newatlas.com/energy/worlds-largest-flow-battery-grid-china/
For Essox, Vestas are the largest wind turbine manufacturer in the world. They are a Danish company but they have huge operations in China. Production will occur where there is cheap energy. The subsidised coal powered plants of China are more appealing >> But this is true about most manufactured goods. That said, I would rather we manufactured as much stuff as possible in the UK, using green energy.
Also to really think about energy security you need to think about the rare Earth minerals needed. Same when you consider environmental impacts as it's a massive impact in extracting those minerals >> Green energy and green products should really be called greener not green because it is virtually impossible to manufacture anything which is perfectly green. I know lithium mining is a dirty process in most cases but so is fossil fuel extraction. Have you seen the tar sands? Bear in mind too that lithium is used in a vast range of devices, including 'phones, laptops, power tools, toothbrushes...
Copper has many uses for society. If we try to expand the need for it with wind power to that extent the prices will rocket. As will the other rare Earth minerals that must be sourced abroad. Like the tungsten carbide drill bits needed for the blast holes through hard rock. Predominately made in China where they will rely on coal power stations for such an energy intensive process. >> Copper is used for lots of applications, like electronic components and wiring. Using it to provide green energy, with its attendant climate, clean air and energy security benefits, is a good application. >> As I said above, I would prefer the UK to source as many things as possible from local manufacturers, but on the subject of the Chinese, they part own our Hinckley C and Sizewell C nuclear power stations.
Consider to the ammonium nitrate needed for blasting in copper mining is also needed through fossil fuels. So saying Denmark are the leader. Consider the chain and where the work is actually done. The copper is just one aspect
The out of sight out of mind of environmental damage related to solar and wind. The lack of understanding of the availability of the rare Earth minerals needed and what Can and will happen to their prices as the supply demand trend continues >> I would accept that solar and wind have environmental downsides but they are outweighed by the upsides. The manufacturing processes could certainly be made greener. >> As with everything, security of supply needs to be looked at but rare earth metals have very broad applications which are in no way limited to “green” stuff. I started looking at those applications, working down the Wikipedia list and, as a taster, we have: - Scandium: Radioactive tracing agent in oil refineries - Yttrium: Metal alloys used in jet engines - Lanthanum: Fluid catalytic cracking catalyst for oil refineries NB: I know there are other rare earth metals, I went down the Wikipedia list in the order it appeared
Particularly useful is the Resolution mine in Arizona example. This being one of the largest undeveloped copper projects in the world and of course it's being protested to not be developed by Green movement. Pretty funny really. As over their that would make the green industry more viable and give more value to the energy security argument >> Good point, that is ironic. One thing I have learned from writing this screed is that many materials are used in products and processes which would never occur to most people, including of course me.
Instead they are suppressing development in countries with more strict environmental controls and instead let it get mined in countries that don't have regulatory protections in place like the US does >> Yes, this is an issue. The west has historically tended to outsource a lot of the dirty and carbon-intensive manufacturing to far-flung lands.
This all links back into the pound as we don't have energy security in this country. The Lib Dems particularly to blame there for preventing fracking and stopping new nuclear that would be online by now. Also Tory's push to try and get green leaning voters. So we need to buy a product priced in dollars buy printing around £130 billion this year potentially. That increase in money supply for that purpose devalues our currency
The well intentioned confusion I see on here is because people mix this up with being an electricity crisis and it's not it's an energy crisis. Natural gas is used at cogeneration plants to at industrial chemcial facilities (look at Bayers problems in Germany), it's used to make fertiliser (our last plant in country recently shut down) it's used
Payback period of 6 weeks for nuclear and 4 years for solar. The Americans have just blown up Nordsteam 1 and 2 not that you see potentially the biggest story of the year getting coverage much over in our MSM >> Where did you get those payback figures? As an example, Hinckley C will cost between £25-26bn, we surely can’t recoup those costs in six weeks. >> I agree that the Nordstream 1 and 2 thing is major news, but I don’t think there is any proof that it was the US.
Also, why don't the environmentalists push for a hydrogen economy around nuclear. I have my suspicions around who discourages that.
We could use hydrogen combustion engines to power our vehicles. Start with water use the electriliser powered by a nuclear power plant and get rid of vehicle related CO2 emissions. The technology for this exists. We use internal combustion engines to burn that hydrogen back to water. So we don't need to extract all these precious metals out of the ground and the harmful processes that entails >> I don’t have anything against hydrogen but I think the current lack of a broad distribution network, and cost of creating one, is playing against it, as is the momentum in the electric vehicle market. I think hydrogen probably makes sense for point to point transport of freight, so, where it’s point a to point b and there is no need for a large number of hydrogen depots.
But big business and aims of centralised control can't work if we do that
(BBC Panorma tonight on the topic of how green our renewable really are) >> I didn’t see it but I think it was about the Drax power station and its use of imported wood. The plant is supposed to use waste products but the operators have been found to be cutting down primary forests in Canada. I totally agree, that is not green, it’s madness!
Unsurprisingly there is a lot of agreement/overlap in our views.
Would say on lobbying point, that works behind closed doors. Happens on all sides to be fair. Nick Clegg working at Facebook for example. They corruptly lean on the right committee. Chuck a few dollars and put the right MP as a non exec director or give them a role at a think tank which is just a front for bribery. Policy gets put in place and then expectation is as an MP you vote as you are told
"Fossil fuels have always been subsidised multiples more than renewables". Better to use facts and figures here. Also need to keep in mind when looking at these figures what proportion of the worlds energy is provided by fossil fuels (not talking about just electricity but energy more broadly) I think your statement here doesn't take into account that context. The renewable industry has disproportionately high subsidies
Concerns around £150m towards a nuclear project seems unnecessary when it's clean energy and about 0.1% of this winters energy bailout cost
Molten salt... Solar battery... how effectively is that working currently? In terms of giga watt hours
It's great people are looking at solutions but is it working on any sort of scale now as we have an energy crisis right now? Is it really viable in much of Europe. Assume it would take up huge amounts of land and can it really have that much energy density. It is certainly not a solved problem as you imply
The biggest battery system in the US currently can 19 minutes of the Palo Verde nuclear plant in Arizona before being full.
The entire world makes 1,100 gigawatt hours of Li ion battery storage a year. In 2019 though it used 23,425 Terrawatt (not gigawatt) hours in 2019. That's enough for storing 24 minutes of annual use. I'm struggling to share your optimism on battery storage here
Nice to see you recognising the dangers of globalism and the need for bringing manufacturing back to your own country. I remember a lairy orange man who used to encapsulate that view with a slogan "make America great again"... that not bad and racist anymore I guess
Payback period is in terms of energy needed to produce... I should have been clearer there. I don't mean financially. I mean in terms of energy it takes to produce the solar panels it's not until 4 years of those panels then producing energy that it has got to break even and produced as much output in energy as it took in input to create it.
Just feels odd that we are heading for a struggle this winter. Further bankrupting the country while China builds more coal power stations to provide the materials for our renewables
Talking about renewables is fairly off topic, but since you are, as I've said before, the case for wave/tidal is increibly strong, but criminally underused in this country, where we have the second highest tidal range after Canada, and we are, literally, surrounded by water.
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
Markets now expect U-turn - FT journalist "Everybody I’ve spoken to in Whitehall in the past hour is certain a U-turn is on the cards — if not yet nailed on," says Sebastian Payne, Whitehall editor of the Financial Times. Speaking to the BBC, he says: "The problem Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng now have is that [U-turn] is being built into the markets’ expectations. "If they don’t U-turn on certain elements of the mini-budget, they’ll end up in a worse situation than they were in at the beginning of today. "That just shows how mishandled this whole thing has been." Payne says the "rumours and chat emanating from Downing Street" conflict with what Kwarteng said a short while ago that "nothing has changed". "He is still talking about 31 October as that date when he will set out the fiscal framework that will somehow make all these sums suddenly add up. "That feels wholly unlikely — there’s so much pressure being sustained on the chancellor and on the prime minster now this cannot hold for another 18 days."
Markets now expect U-turn - FT journalist "Everybody I’ve spoken to in Whitehall in the past hour is certain a U-turn is on the cards — if not yet nailed on," says Sebastian Payne, Whitehall editor of the Financial Times. Speaking to the BBC, he says: "The problem Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng now have is that [U-turn] is being built into the markets’ expectations. "If they don’t U-turn on certain elements of the mini-budget, they’ll end up in a worse situation than they were in at the beginning of today. "That just shows how mishandled this whole thing has been." Payne says the "rumours and chat emanating from Downing Street" conflict with what Kwarteng said a short while ago that "nothing has changed". "He is still talking about 31 October as that date when he will set out the fiscal framework that will somehow make all these sums suddenly add up. "That feels wholly unlikely — there’s so much pressure being sustained on the chancellor and on the prime minster now this cannot hold for another 18 days."
Fake news! Those Marxists at the FT are part of the anti-growth coalition. Truss is not for turning. Kwasi is a financial genius. This is a global crisis, nothing to do with the fabulous “true Tory budget” at all.
Nice to see hard core Conservatives like Jimmy R, Kensal Riser and Ranger Things making clear they wish we had huge and extremely severe austerity likes of which we have never seen on our main government spends like the NHS or our unfunded Welfare systems who’s largest benefit spend is the state pension. Because without that we couldnt get into the place where they think KK’s budget drama over a £2 top rate of tax cut from 45p to 40p was the reason and it wasn’t the straw that broke the camels back ion our national debt of £2.4 trillion
A £2 billion cut which is less than 0.1% of our national debt so opf course they cant really say that was the problem. They understand free money is over and it turns out it wassnt free!!!
Austerity on a level we cant even imagine is going to be slapped round our face and its all self inflicted as a nation
Or even not to have spend we did on the Covid response. Test and Trace cost £37 billion. Furlough at least an extra £70 billion. £2 billion now tax cut which would largely be cycled round the economy and taxed again anyway and its a disaster. These las recognise the debts the problem clearly not a £2 billion tax cut
Nice to see hard core Conservatives like Jimmy R, Kensal Riser and Ranger Things making clear they wish we had huge and extremely severe austerity likes of which we have never seen on our main government spends like the NHS or our unfunded Welfare systems who’s largest benefit spend is the state pension. Because without that we couldnt get into the place where they think KK’s budget drama over a £2 top rate of tax cut from 45p to 40p was the reason and it wasn’t the straw that broke the camels back ion our national debt of £2.4 trillion
A £2 billion cut which is less than 0.1% of our national debt so opf course they cant really say that was the problem. They understand free money is over and it turns out it wassnt free!!!
Austerity on a level we cant even imagine is going to be slapped round our face and its all self inflicted as a nation
Or even not to have spend we did on the Covid response. Test and Trace cost £37 billion. Furlough at least an extra £70 billion. £2 billion now tax cut which would largely be cycled round the economy and taxed again anyway and its a disaster. These las recognise the debts the problem clearly not a £2 billion tax cut
[Post edited 13 Oct 2022 17:07]
Excuse me the State Pension is NOT a "benefit".It's been paid for and squandered by various governments.
The current circumstances reminds me of what Noel Gallagher said after the Prince Andrew documentary...'now there was a bloke who never had to lie in his entire life, and when it came to it, despite thinking otherwise, was'nt very good at it'.
Truss, Kwarteng & Co are terrible at lying and just thought the entire population were stupid enough to swallow a few sound-bites like if you think our economic policies at this moment in time are recklessly stupid you are part of the anti-growth coalition or scare-mongering, or part of project fear etc.
Truss, Kwarteng & Co are now busy dreaming up some Boris like word-play for the end of the month when they will try explain away the inexplicable and pretend they are not making cuts to balance the budget or making any more u-turns on their disastrous mini-budget.
If they think they can bluff their way out of this one, they are toast, hopefully opening the door to a Sunak / Mordaunt joint ticket so we can have a meaningful election in two years between a centre right and a centre left party rather than a choice between Boris and Corbyn.
Nice to see hard core Conservatives like Jimmy R, Kensal Riser and Ranger Things making clear they wish we had huge and extremely severe austerity likes of which we have never seen on our main government spends like the NHS or our unfunded Welfare systems who’s largest benefit spend is the state pension. Because without that we couldnt get into the place where they think KK’s budget drama over a £2 top rate of tax cut from 45p to 40p was the reason and it wasn’t the straw that broke the camels back ion our national debt of £2.4 trillion
A £2 billion cut which is less than 0.1% of our national debt so opf course they cant really say that was the problem. They understand free money is over and it turns out it wassnt free!!!
Austerity on a level we cant even imagine is going to be slapped round our face and its all self inflicted as a nation
Or even not to have spend we did on the Covid response. Test and Trace cost £37 billion. Furlough at least an extra £70 billion. £2 billion now tax cut which would largely be cycled round the economy and taxed again anyway and its a disaster. These las recognise the debts the problem clearly not a £2 billion tax cut
[Post edited 13 Oct 2022 17:07]
And it's great to see Sakura/SheffieldHoop (same person) spouting out the same ol unpunctuated and incomprehensible gibberish. Emmm yummy i feel all warm inside! 4 more spoons pls mummy
Excuse me the State Pension is NOT a "benefit".It's been paid for and squandered by various governments.
Huh? Firstly it factually is a benefit. The State Pension is largest chunk of our countries welfare spending)
Or do you mean it's kind of like when I was 23 I went to Ibiza missed my flight and stayed an extra two days. Blew what was left of my bank account at Blue Marlin, Sunset Ashram, Amnesia, Space, a new flight, various substances and a couple of extra days in a pricey Airbnb and then didn't have the cash to pay my rent to my landlord
So I should have told her not to worry it's been paid for!!! It's just been squandered...
Come on Pugwash... you are more sensible then that aren't you? If we have paid tax but not set it aside but then that's been spent on other things to the extent we still have £2,400,000,000,000 of debt how can you say it's been paid for?
If it was paid for then there would be a set aside set of funds we would be drawing down on. But we aren't doing that at all. Instead the State pension is drawn down on in the same way as someone you would used to find on Jeremy Kyles sofa who isn't working but picks up a few hundred quid in benefits after signing on down the job centre each week. It's no different. State pension is paid for just in the same way that job seekers allowance is
JimmyR it appear fears about us balancing the budget it would appear wants that cut severely because at £116 billion a year on State Pension it being 58 times more significant than a £2 billion tax cut for our most (financially) productive members of society
Huh? Firstly it factually is a benefit. The State Pension is largest chunk of our countries welfare spending)
Or do you mean it's kind of like when I was 23 I went to Ibiza missed my flight and stayed an extra two days. Blew what was left of my bank account at Blue Marlin, Sunset Ashram, Amnesia, Space, a new flight, various substances and a couple of extra days in a pricey Airbnb and then didn't have the cash to pay my rent to my landlord
So I should have told her not to worry it's been paid for!!! It's just been squandered...
Come on Pugwash... you are more sensible then that aren't you? If we have paid tax but not set it aside but then that's been spent on other things to the extent we still have £2,400,000,000,000 of debt how can you say it's been paid for?
If it was paid for then there would be a set aside set of funds we would be drawing down on. But we aren't doing that at all. Instead the State pension is drawn down on in the same way as someone you would used to find on Jeremy Kyles sofa who isn't working but picks up a few hundred quid in benefits after signing on down the job centre each week. It's no different. State pension is paid for just in the same way that job seekers allowance is
JimmyR it appear fears about us balancing the budget it would appear wants that cut severely because at £116 billion a year on State Pension it being 58 times more significant than a £2 billion tax cut for our most (financially) productive members of society
Now I know you are Russian Bot, you pay for you pension via NI, if you don’t make enough contributions you don’t get the pension, what do you want ? People to work until they die.
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
Huh? Firstly it factually is a benefit. The State Pension is largest chunk of our countries welfare spending)
Or do you mean it's kind of like when I was 23 I went to Ibiza missed my flight and stayed an extra two days. Blew what was left of my bank account at Blue Marlin, Sunset Ashram, Amnesia, Space, a new flight, various substances and a couple of extra days in a pricey Airbnb and then didn't have the cash to pay my rent to my landlord
So I should have told her not to worry it's been paid for!!! It's just been squandered...
Come on Pugwash... you are more sensible then that aren't you? If we have paid tax but not set it aside but then that's been spent on other things to the extent we still have £2,400,000,000,000 of debt how can you say it's been paid for?
If it was paid for then there would be a set aside set of funds we would be drawing down on. But we aren't doing that at all. Instead the State pension is drawn down on in the same way as someone you would used to find on Jeremy Kyles sofa who isn't working but picks up a few hundred quid in benefits after signing on down the job centre each week. It's no different. State pension is paid for just in the same way that job seekers allowance is
JimmyR it appear fears about us balancing the budget it would appear wants that cut severely because at £116 billion a year on State Pension it being 58 times more significant than a £2 billion tax cut for our most (financially) productive members of society
I think the market took a different view on the £2bn higher rate tax-cut than yourself, Truss and Kwarteng.
It was'nt the monetary value of the cut, it was the underlying statement of intent.
It made no sense economically and only made sense politically if your focus was to reward many of the 80,000 who took leave of their senses and voted you into office.
A Tory Party member at work voted for Truss and is now at pains to say its all Kwarteng's fault as to accept otherwise would admit he made an idiotic choice in voting for Truss.
Said he did'nt vote for Sunak as he was a billionaire and could relocate to India if the going got tough. Also said his colour was a big factor in the vote at his association. You really could'nt make it up.
I think the market took a different view on the £2bn higher rate tax-cut than yourself, Truss and Kwarteng.
It was'nt the monetary value of the cut, it was the underlying statement of intent.
It made no sense economically and only made sense politically if your focus was to reward many of the 80,000 who took leave of their senses and voted you into office.
A Tory Party member at work voted for Truss and is now at pains to say its all Kwarteng's fault as to accept otherwise would admit he made an idiotic choice in voting for Truss.
Said he did'nt vote for Sunak as he was a billionaire and could relocate to India if the going got tough. Also said his colour was a big factor in the vote at his association. You really could'nt make it up.
Not at all. I agree. Like I said it was the straw that broke the camels back.
But the point that is most interesting is that to take this debt on that the market recognises is unmanageable we are going to start seeing this decade some unimaginably severe austerity cuts and with State Pensions being the largest chunk of our Welfare State and NHS being our most significant spent that's where cuts will be needed on a size basis most significant. That's the elephant in the room for Jimmy R, Kensal Riser and co.
Will also be a Labour government that needs to do that otherwise we are on a road to Weimar, Venezuela or Zimbabwe. That will be an interesting time in this country as Labour are forced to do that
Huh? Firstly it factually is a benefit. The State Pension is largest chunk of our countries welfare spending)
Or do you mean it's kind of like when I was 23 I went to Ibiza missed my flight and stayed an extra two days. Blew what was left of my bank account at Blue Marlin, Sunset Ashram, Amnesia, Space, a new flight, various substances and a couple of extra days in a pricey Airbnb and then didn't have the cash to pay my rent to my landlord
So I should have told her not to worry it's been paid for!!! It's just been squandered...
Come on Pugwash... you are more sensible then that aren't you? If we have paid tax but not set it aside but then that's been spent on other things to the extent we still have £2,400,000,000,000 of debt how can you say it's been paid for?
If it was paid for then there would be a set aside set of funds we would be drawing down on. But we aren't doing that at all. Instead the State pension is drawn down on in the same way as someone you would used to find on Jeremy Kyles sofa who isn't working but picks up a few hundred quid in benefits after signing on down the job centre each week. It's no different. State pension is paid for just in the same way that job seekers allowance is
JimmyR it appear fears about us balancing the budget it would appear wants that cut severely because at £116 billion a year on State Pension it being 58 times more significant than a £2 billion tax cut for our most (financially) productive members of society
I appear fear gear and lots of queers with an old dear that loves piers and appears as if its up to her ears. and no mistake
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