| Ukraine 23:51 - Sep 9 with 83949 views | MrSheen |
Posted with some trepidation as I know Clive doesn’t like multis. Understandably overlooked by the national media, but it seems like the Russians are completely caving in, rope-a-doped as effectively as von Paulus in 1942. Who knows what this might lead to? |  | | |  |
| Ukraine on 14:26 - Sep 20 with 3160 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Ukraine on 14:17 - Sep 20 by Northernr |
You're telling me I've moderated ten days of "The Queen" and now you're going to spend the international break doing nuclear disarmament? |
Special birthday present for you.
Happy Birthday. |  | | |
| Ukraine on 15:04 - Sep 20 with 3059 views | DWQPR |
| Ukraine on 14:16 - Sep 20 by Sonofpugwash |
Unilateral nuclear disarmament is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.
I remember Labour in the seventies proposing a non nuclear defence of Europe involving a huge ditch filled with diesel to stop Soviet tanks rumbling across the German plains..
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With the price of diesel at the pumps now I'd be the first in the queue draining the f*cking thing. |  |
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| Ukraine on 15:41 - Sep 20 with 2991 views | joe90 |
| Ukraine on 11:54 - Sep 20 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I'm posting this not because I'm anti West, pro Putin, or any of the other things the usual suspects will say. I can live with a handful of downvotes from basement dwelling losers.
I am posting this because I love my country and don't want to see it's people die in a nuclear war because clueless careerists who'll be first in the bunker with no skin in the game can't keep their mouths shut.
We are saying the exact same thing this side of the pond as Gurulyov, albeit less bombastically.
If it's good enough for Social Democrats to say, of course it will empower a mad Russian nationalist to say it.
We need to end the double standards before we can position ourselves as the righteous actors in this conflict.
'Liz Truss says she’s ‘ready’ to hit nuclear button if necessary'
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liz-truss-nuclear-button-ready-b2 |
You sound like every CND/Stop The War crank I've met.
I shouldn't take the bait, but I'm increasingly finding this forum to be a cliquey echo chamber. It's deeply frustrating and sadly reflects the wider toxic discourse in society.
I can take different views, but it's your rhetoric I can't stand.
I'm going to stop reading the non-football threads. |  | | |
| Ukraine on 16:17 - Sep 20 with 2917 views | CroydonCaptJack |
| Ukraine on 15:41 - Sep 20 by joe90 |
You sound like every CND/Stop The War crank I've met.
I shouldn't take the bait, but I'm increasingly finding this forum to be a cliquey echo chamber. It's deeply frustrating and sadly reflects the wider toxic discourse in society.
I can take different views, but it's your rhetoric I can't stand.
I'm going to stop reading the non-football threads. |
The football threads and the non-political OT threads are generally brilliant.
I tend to just avoid the political ones. I sometimes read them (hence this reply) but don't generally comment or get drawn in. |  | | |
| Ukraine on 16:19 - Sep 20 with 2916 views | davman |
| Ukraine on 13:48 - Sep 20 by DWQPR |
I shudder to imagine. On your theory we may as well give up every weapon we hold and disband the armed forces. And rely on the basis of having a good old chat in front of the fire with Vlad over tea and cake. Do you honestly believe that had Ukraine had nukes that those lively, loveable, cuddly Ruskis would have invaded?
Putin invaded on the basis that Ukraine was full of neo nazis. And also on the basis of having some kind of barrier between Russia and that non-aggressive pact, we know as NATO. The reality is that this was a land grab and to protect ethnic Russians, same as Hitler did with the Sudatenland in '38. And we know what happened there with appeasement. Putin hasn't tried to invade the Baltic states, because they are part of NATO and NATO as he knows only too well would react in kind. It's called Mutually Assured Destruction and strangely it has pretty much worked well since the end of WW2. |
To be fair to Baz on this one, I think he was pretty clear. His reply was nothing to do with disarming - it was "keep the weapons, leave the retaliation bit unsaid, but there in the background and say something much more reasonable and less threatening" .
In other words, just be "better" than others as we should be.
Reserving the right to "Bomb the bstards" if necessary (c) K Everett. |  |
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| Ukraine on 16:28 - Sep 20 with 2895 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Ukraine on 15:41 - Sep 20 by joe90 |
You sound like every CND/Stop The War crank I've met.
I shouldn't take the bait, but I'm increasingly finding this forum to be a cliquey echo chamber. It's deeply frustrating and sadly reflects the wider toxic discourse in society.
I can take different views, but it's your rhetoric I can't stand.
I'm going to stop reading the non-football threads. |
You’ve clicked on a thread called Ukraine. What did you expect? Borscht recipes? | | | |
| Ukraine on 17:12 - Sep 20 with 2798 views | PunteR |
| Ukraine on 16:17 - Sep 20 by CroydonCaptJack |
The football threads and the non-political OT threads are generally brilliant.
I tend to just avoid the political ones. I sometimes read them (hence this reply) but don't generally comment or get drawn in. |
Its for the best.
They never end well unfortunately . |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Ukraine on 17:21 - Sep 20 with 2779 views | PunteR |
| Ukraine on 16:28 - Sep 20 by BazzaInTheLoft |
You’ve clicked on a thread called Ukraine. What did you expect? Borscht recipes? |
Mmmm .. Borscht recipes..
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| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Ukraine on 17:43 - Sep 20 with 2712 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Ukraine on 17:12 - Sep 20 by PunteR |
Its for the best.
They never end well unfortunately . |
It was going fine until the name calling I thought. | | | |
| Ukraine on 18:18 - Sep 20 with 2640 views | traininvain |
| Ukraine on 15:41 - Sep 20 by joe90 |
You sound like every CND/Stop The War crank I've met.
I shouldn't take the bait, but I'm increasingly finding this forum to be a cliquey echo chamber. It's deeply frustrating and sadly reflects the wider toxic discourse in society.
I can take different views, but it's your rhetoric I can't stand.
I'm going to stop reading the non-football threads. |
Not much of an echo chamber given all the different views on the Queen threads. Actually the complete opposite of an echo chamber. |  | | |
| Ukraine on 18:40 - Sep 20 with 2608 views | Mick_S |
| Ukraine on 16:17 - Sep 20 by CroydonCaptJack |
The football threads and the non-political OT threads are generally brilliant.
I tend to just avoid the political ones. I sometimes read them (hence this reply) but don't generally comment or get drawn in. |
Aye. |  |
| Did I ever mention that I was in Minder? |
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| Ukraine on 18:56 - Sep 20 with 2576 views | stevec |
| Ukraine on 11:54 - Sep 20 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I'm posting this not because I'm anti West, pro Putin, or any of the other things the usual suspects will say. I can live with a handful of downvotes from basement dwelling losers.
I am posting this because I love my country and don't want to see it's people die in a nuclear war because clueless careerists who'll be first in the bunker with no skin in the game can't keep their mouths shut.
We are saying the exact same thing this side of the pond as Gurulyov, albeit less bombastically.
If it's good enough for Social Democrats to say, of course it will empower a mad Russian nationalist to say it.
We need to end the double standards before we can position ourselves as the righteous actors in this conflict.
'Liz Truss says she’s ‘ready’ to hit nuclear button if necessary'
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liz-truss-nuclear-button-ready-b2 |
I’d like to put your comments down to naivety but I can’t get the words ‘cunning stunt’ out of my head.
Let me put it down to naivety for now, and point out that this isn’t a straight fight between Britain and Russia. If it was you may have a point. Trouble is it’s not about us, it’s about China. A country that if we or the US show any remote sign of weakness, will see China ploughing into Taiwan and then all bets are off.
Maybe you recognise this and the concept of being overrun by a state committed to spreading Communism throughout the world is an appealing one, particularly when you’ve likely realised that any possibility of it coming from a home grown prophecy is a complete non starter.
Hopefully you’re just being naive. |  | | |
| Ukraine on 19:17 - Sep 20 with 2537 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Ukraine on 18:56 - Sep 20 by stevec |
I’d like to put your comments down to naivety but I can’t get the words ‘cunning stunt’ out of my head.
Let me put it down to naivety for now, and point out that this isn’t a straight fight between Britain and Russia. If it was you may have a point. Trouble is it’s not about us, it’s about China. A country that if we or the US show any remote sign of weakness, will see China ploughing into Taiwan and then all bets are off.
Maybe you recognise this and the concept of being overrun by a state committed to spreading Communism throughout the world is an appealing one, particularly when you’ve likely realised that any possibility of it coming from a home grown prophecy is a complete non starter.
Hopefully you’re just being naive. |
Why are you so angry? | | | |
| Ukraine on 19:30 - Sep 20 with 2502 views | FredManRave |
| Ukraine on 16:17 - Sep 20 by CroydonCaptJack |
The football threads and the non-political OT threads are generally brilliant.
I tend to just avoid the political ones. I sometimes read them (hence this reply) but don't generally comment or get drawn in. |
Bloody Liberals.
 |  |
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| Ukraine on 19:32 - Sep 20 with 2471 views | Sonofpugwash |
"Whateve happens we have got
The Maxim Gun and they have not." |  |
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| Ukraine on 19:33 - Sep 20 with 2488 views | FredManRave |
| Ukraine on 14:17 - Sep 20 by Northernr |
You're telling me I've moderated ten days of "The Queen" and now you're going to spend the international break doing nuclear disarmament? |
Made me LOL!
International breaks, eh?!
No Rangers Football for two weeks so Rangers Fans with time on their hands and a forum to post on in 2022.
What could possibly go wrong.
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| Ukraine on 19:38 - Sep 20 with 2470 views | distortR |
| Ukraine on 13:48 - Sep 20 by DWQPR |
I shudder to imagine. On your theory we may as well give up every weapon we hold and disband the armed forces. And rely on the basis of having a good old chat in front of the fire with Vlad over tea and cake. Do you honestly believe that had Ukraine had nukes that those lively, loveable, cuddly Ruskis would have invaded?
Putin invaded on the basis that Ukraine was full of neo nazis. And also on the basis of having some kind of barrier between Russia and that non-aggressive pact, we know as NATO. The reality is that this was a land grab and to protect ethnic Russians, same as Hitler did with the Sudatenland in '38. And we know what happened there with appeasement. Putin hasn't tried to invade the Baltic states, because they are part of NATO and NATO as he knows only too well would react in kind. It's called Mutually Assured Destruction and strangely it has pretty much worked well since the end of WW2. |
"that non-aggressive pact, we know as NATO"
Tell Libya that. | | | |
| Ukraine on 19:38 - Sep 20 with 2470 views | kensalriser |
| Ukraine on 18:56 - Sep 20 by stevec |
I’d like to put your comments down to naivety but I can’t get the words ‘cunning stunt’ out of my head.
Let me put it down to naivety for now, and point out that this isn’t a straight fight between Britain and Russia. If it was you may have a point. Trouble is it’s not about us, it’s about China. A country that if we or the US show any remote sign of weakness, will see China ploughing into Taiwan and then all bets are off.
Maybe you recognise this and the concept of being overrun by a state committed to spreading Communism throughout the world is an appealing one, particularly when you’ve likely realised that any possibility of it coming from a home grown prophecy is a complete non starter.
Hopefully you’re just being naive. |
You're the naive one if you think there's anything communist about China except nominally. It's a hard authoritarian capitalist one party state. |  |
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| Ukraine on 19:43 - Sep 20 with 2452 views | silverbirch |
| Ukraine on 13:01 - Sep 20 by BazzaInTheLoft |
She should have said,
‘No I will never deploy nuclear weapons as it will cause a global holocaust and I want to work with all Nuclear powers to reduce the global arsenal to zero. We are the 6th biggest economy in the world and we will give abiding nations favourable trade deals for compliance. I hope Russia will sit round the table over Ukraine as soon possible and we’ll talk about the historic bad behaviour of post Minsk NATO as well as Putin’s illegal invasions (plural) to seek a ceasefire as soon as possible’
Imagine. |
Genuine interest, do you have a link to where I can read about historic bad behaviour of post Minsk NATO, please? | | | |
| Ukraine on 20:07 - Sep 20 with 2371 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Ukraine on 19:43 - Sep 20 by silverbirch |
Genuine interest, do you have a link to where I can read about historic bad behaviour of post Minsk NATO, please? |
I was alluding to expansion, the US backed Ukrainian coup in 2014, and civilian economic sanctions (not military or capital) that don’t hit oligarchs just civilians.
I won’t post anything from StW or CND as it offends, so I’ve gone for this instead.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022/03/30/why-the-us-and-nato-have-long-want
I cannot stress enough that criticism of NATO / US / EU states does not mean condoning Russian aggression AT ALL. Just some nuance for a complicated situation. [Post edited 20 Sep 2022 21:30]
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| Ukraine on 20:12 - Sep 20 with 2352 views | distortR |
| Ukraine on 19:43 - Sep 20 by silverbirch |
Genuine interest, do you have a link to where I can read about historic bad behaviour of post Minsk NATO, please? |
google 'game on' by Andrew Cockburn in the harpers.org archive for an interesting read on NATO pushing east. | | | |
| Ukraine on 20:15 - Sep 20 with 2340 views | 100percent |
Careful, I think the Mourning Police are on their way over from the 'queen' thread.... |  | | |
| Ukraine on 20:37 - Sep 20 with 2286 views | eastside_r |
| Ukraine on 18:18 - Sep 20 by traininvain |
Not much of an echo chamber given all the different views on the Queen threads. Actually the complete opposite of an echo chamber. |
Sorry, I down-voted this in error. |  | | |
| Ukraine on 20:52 - Sep 20 with 2251 views | traininvain |
| Ukraine on 20:07 - Sep 20 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I was alluding to expansion, the US backed Ukrainian coup in 2014, and civilian economic sanctions (not military or capital) that don’t hit oligarchs just civilians.
I won’t post anything from StW or CND as it offends, so I’ve gone for this instead.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022/03/30/why-the-us-and-nato-have-long-want
I cannot stress enough that criticism of NATO / US / EU states does not mean condoning Russian aggression AT ALL. Just some nuance for a complicated situation. [Post edited 20 Sep 2022 21:30]
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I’ll probably regret asking this but if NATO forced Putin’s hand as you suggest, why did Putin write an essay going into so much detail about history and Russia’s right as an imperial power. He explicitly said that Ukraine belongs to Russia and that it is not a sovereign country.
Putin has subsequently overseen the bombing of Ukrainian hospitals, schools, universities, theatres, murdered journalists, shot civilians etc.
His words and actions don’t seem to fit the narrative that Putin was somehow backed into a corner by NATO expansion and was forced to react. It all seems a lot more personal to him. | | | |
| Ukraine on 21:28 - Sep 20 with 3762 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Ukraine on 20:52 - Sep 20 by traininvain |
I’ll probably regret asking this but if NATO forced Putin’s hand as you suggest, why did Putin write an essay going into so much detail about history and Russia’s right as an imperial power. He explicitly said that Ukraine belongs to Russia and that it is not a sovereign country.
Putin has subsequently overseen the bombing of Ukrainian hospitals, schools, universities, theatres, murdered journalists, shot civilians etc.
His words and actions don’t seem to fit the narrative that Putin was somehow backed into a corner by NATO expansion and was forced to react. It all seems a lot more personal to him. |
Firstly, thanks for engaging without calling anyone a crank or a communist!
Sorry it’s a long one.
Putin wrote that essay because like every other leadership including our own, he has to throw red meat to nationalists, especially in hard times because strongmen (and women, see Thatcher) win votes. It’s the same reason he poses shirtless on horseback and attacks gays. Prior to Ukraine he was hugely popular amongst the dispossessed because he gave a (often false) sense of nationhood to people still in the shit from the collapse of the USSR and and the transfer of wealth from the poorest to Oligarchs. They don’t fully comprehend the link between him and that transfer because it’s easier to hate others than scrutinise yourself especially when a complicit media tells you too. Most of not all nations are guilty of this to some degree.
Despite the corruption, Russia is still nominally a democracy. You can’t control 140 million people through suppression alone so soft coercion is also deployed.
Sometimes it’s subtle, like a royal wedding or anti immigration laws like we have here and sometimes it’s extreme, like invading a territory such as Ukraine.
I guess what i’m saying is that up until the invasion and with the exception of what happened in Georgia and Chechnya, what comes out of Putin has mostly been hot air aimed at strengthening his image as a strongman.
Ukraine is unique in that all Russo nations consider it the motherland and Kiev it’s capital. Most Russians hate the west, some justifiably, some not. When we launched the coup in 2014 it was an attack on the slavic / orthodox Christian identity and its spiralled since then.
I have to remind you that Western nations including the US, UK, EU, and Israel have also bombed hospitals and schools and in the first week of the Ukrainian invasion the US dropped twice as many armaments on Yemen than Russia did on Ukraine.
I’m sure Putin does have an ego, which plays a huge part in his decision making, but this script has been written before by many nations. How many wars have we been involved in during Putin’s premiership? 12? I am sure the Russian people I’ve looked at the various leaders with the same disdain we rightly do.
Excuse the errors, I’m on a wobbly train home. | | | |
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