| Knee booed by horny fans? on 23:49 - Jan 3 with 1246 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 21:58 - Jan 3 by Lohengrin |
Have you seen one of these BLM shindigs that didn’t heavily feature the clenched fist salute? |
I’ve certainly never seen any sort of demonstration involving the ‘right’, whether it be EDL, football ‘lads’, pro Brexit or anti BLM march that doesn’t involve the Nazi salute.
The clenched fist is not a ‘black power‘ salute, it’s a gesture of resistance that’s been used by all sorts of groups protesting against what they perceive as establishment oppression for the last century.
As you well know. |  | |  |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 23:53 - Jan 3 with 1238 views | Chief |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 23:45 - Jan 3 by Glossolalia |
Thanks for the link. I don't suggest that the players' motives would be political. I guess most modern-day footballers don't spend too much time mulling over the political aspects of their actions, if there are any.
But to repeat what I said- the gesture is becoming trite. Your link strengthens that claim.
You've succeeded in proving my point, if I may say. It is being recognised as a shoe-horned gesture, not wholly fit for purpose. I agree with Ferdinand, who calls it nothing more than 'good PR'.
A gesture created by a sporting environment and espoused by those within it, I feel, would be at less risk of being diluted, but even less risk of being conflated or confused. Would Assombalonga feel the same way in this instance? Almost certainly not. Therein lies the inherent weakness of heedlessly borrowing an anti-racism gesture. [Post edited 3 Jan 2021 23:49]
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But you did suggest that he may not have stopped had the gesture been 'apolitical' which by his reckoning is not true.
I haven't disputed or disagreed with your point on whether its still relevant or powerful. However, i don't think its down to people like me - a white man to decide that and enforce / impose that on the players.
My point is that I'll support whatever the players want to do, and would Assombalonga if he played for us. [Post edited 3 Jan 2021 23:56]
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 00:04 - Jan 4 with 1218 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 22:10 - Jan 3 by Glossolalia |
The duration of the protest or stand isn't the issue. The stand against racism isn't the issue; it's almost universally supported, and rightly so. A stand or gesture based on something completely apolitical is no price to pay at all, I'd say.
Something so readily adopted with myopic alacrity can just as easily be replaced with something else. Something that gives no scope for political, ideological friction, be it well founded or otherwise. Not to mention that some people from within the black community are calling this repeated knee-taking trite.
It's not so difficult to make a simple, fresh change that gives every sensible, thoughtful person a chance to wholly support a truly apolitical anti-racism message. I'm on your side in this. [Post edited 3 Jan 2021 22:12]
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Firstly I’d argue that the difference between BLM and, say, Kick it Out, is that Kick it Out is historically seen as a very narrow football thing.
The players aren’t any longer taking a stand against racism in football, they are taking a stand against racism in general. And it’s a global movement.
Secondly I’d say that any global stand against racism is, by definition, political.
Racists at football matches can cope with movements such as Kick it Out. It’s so narrowly defined. And even the vast majority of idiots don’t mind black players in football any longer. The team they support will have black players that they like.
Supporting racial equality in all aspects of society is a different kettle of fish. That’s why some are making such a fuss now. It’s gone from being something that only rears its head once a week at a game to something which is all around everyone all the time. Much more challenging. Much more dangerous. Going back to the relatively ‘safe’ option of Kick it Out or similar appeals to those that don’t want to confront the wider issues. | | | |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 00:05 - Jan 4 with 1214 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 23:53 - Jan 3 by Chief |
But you did suggest that he may not have stopped had the gesture been 'apolitical' which by his reckoning is not true.
I haven't disputed or disagreed with your point on whether its still relevant or powerful. However, i don't think its down to people like me - a white man to decide that and enforce / impose that on the players.
My point is that I'll support whatever the players want to do, and would Assombalonga if he played for us. [Post edited 3 Jan 2021 23:56]
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Nobody is imposing anything on anyone. Disagreeing and voicing that disagreement isn’t forcing that on anyone.
People can do what they like, they can stand on their head for 10 seconds for whatever the reason may be. But at the same stroke people can voice their disagreement over it.
I find it extremely telling that while not wanting to speak for other black people (many of which are vehemently against BLM), people are more than happy to speak for those that disagree and create a scenario as to why they disagree instead of listening to them.
That kind of mass group stereotyping is the very thing the gesture is claiming to eradicate isn’t it? I just find it all very ironic and bizarre where conflict looks like it is being sought after. There are so many other ways to make the same point but make it less political regardless of the claimed innocent intentions. |  |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 00:47 - Jan 4 with 1194 views | Glossolalia |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 00:04 - Jan 4 by londonlisa2001 |
Firstly I’d argue that the difference between BLM and, say, Kick it Out, is that Kick it Out is historically seen as a very narrow football thing.
The players aren’t any longer taking a stand against racism in football, they are taking a stand against racism in general. And it’s a global movement.
Secondly I’d say that any global stand against racism is, by definition, political.
Racists at football matches can cope with movements such as Kick it Out. It’s so narrowly defined. And even the vast majority of idiots don’t mind black players in football any longer. The team they support will have black players that they like.
Supporting racial equality in all aspects of society is a different kettle of fish. That’s why some are making such a fuss now. It’s gone from being something that only rears its head once a week at a game to something which is all around everyone all the time. Much more challenging. Much more dangerous. Going back to the relatively ‘safe’ option of Kick it Out or similar appeals to those that don’t want to confront the wider issues. |
It's simply not a global movement, don't be so Western culture-centric and naive. There is also no global stand against racism, nor will there be for a long time. How this chimes with substituting a patently political movement for a sport-led one is beyond me. A complete misnomer.
As for the racists, I hope they are worried. But it has been established that some black players are sick of this posturing, let alone the fans. They don't see themselves as spear-heading some global campaign, come on.
I shan't be debating this further, especially in light of your painfully quixotic thinking. Good points made all round though. I learnt that this taking the knee is even more unpopular than I thought. Good. [Post edited 4 Jan 2021 0:52]
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 01:24 - Jan 4 with 1174 views | Treforys_Jack |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 23:39 - Jan 3 by londonlisa2001 |
In fairness Loh, you are confusing the ‘legions’ of peaceful, respectful marchers for racial equality with a bunch of hooligans. It works both ways. |
One group was followed around and every movement fully reported (and rightly so) however the other peaceful group completely ignored by the media. |  | | |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 01:28 - Jan 4 with 1173 views | Chief |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 00:05 - Jan 4 by Dr_Parnassus |
Nobody is imposing anything on anyone. Disagreeing and voicing that disagreement isn’t forcing that on anyone.
People can do what they like, they can stand on their head for 10 seconds for whatever the reason may be. But at the same stroke people can voice their disagreement over it.
I find it extremely telling that while not wanting to speak for other black people (many of which are vehemently against BLM), people are more than happy to speak for those that disagree and create a scenario as to why they disagree instead of listening to them.
That kind of mass group stereotyping is the very thing the gesture is claiming to eradicate isn’t it? I just find it all very ironic and bizarre where conflict looks like it is being sought after. There are so many other ways to make the same point but make it less political regardless of the claimed innocent intentions. |
No thankfully the people on this forum dont have the power to make them stop, although plenty are saying they should.
Yes indeed they can, but there's ways to go about it. Booing your own players (while breaking the law by gathering outside the stadium) is surely not the best way to do that.
[Post edited 4 Jan 2021 1:34]
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 01:35 - Jan 4 with 1165 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 01:28 - Jan 4 by Chief |
No thankfully the people on this forum dont have the power to make them stop, although plenty are saying they should.
Yes indeed they can, but there's ways to go about it. Booing your own players (while breaking the law by gathering outside the stadium) is surely not the best way to do that.
[Post edited 4 Jan 2021 1:34]
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Making a non political point by using a gesture seen as very political also isn’t the best way to go about it, but people are strange creatures.
But I don’t believe anyone is making anyone stop or believe they have the power to do so. They are voicing their disagreement with the association with the extreme left politics the gesture is linked to. I don’t know where this “making them stop” thing has come from.
I disagree with the booing simply because it gives people with a vested interest claim it is for other reasons and use it as a way to justify the divisive action to continue the conflict. It’s a situation easily solvable. But I don’t think there is much interest in solving the issue, I think that’s clear at this point. It’s simply about feeling they are fighting for something and having opposition, even if it’s for other reasons than the whole point of the gesture seems to be fulfilling that desire. | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 01:42 - Jan 4 with 1163 views | Chief |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 01:35 - Jan 4 by Dr_Parnassus |
Making a non political point by using a gesture seen as very political also isn’t the best way to go about it, but people are strange creatures.
But I don’t believe anyone is making anyone stop or believe they have the power to do so. They are voicing their disagreement with the association with the extreme left politics the gesture is linked to. I don’t know where this “making them stop” thing has come from.
I disagree with the booing simply because it gives people with a vested interest claim it is for other reasons and use it as a way to justify the divisive action to continue the conflict. It’s a situation easily solvable. But I don’t think there is much interest in solving the issue, I think that’s clear at this point. It’s simply about feeling they are fighting for something and having opposition, even if it’s for other reasons than the whole point of the gesture seems to be fulfilling that desire. |
There we are then. We have no quarrel.
I fully respect people's views on why they think the players shouldn't be doing it and fully back their right to express their views on a forum such as this or via formal discussions with the club etc.
The booing of our own players and giving our club a bad name is what irks me, because sadly these protests are an embarrassment on our club. [Post edited 4 Jan 2021 1:44]
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 01:57 - Jan 4 with 1154 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 01:42 - Jan 4 by Chief |
There we are then. We have no quarrel.
I fully respect people's views on why they think the players shouldn't be doing it and fully back their right to express their views on a forum such as this or via formal discussions with the club etc.
The booing of our own players and giving our club a bad name is what irks me, because sadly these protests are an embarrassment on our club. [Post edited 4 Jan 2021 1:44]
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You will have to ask them, but I don’t see it as anyone booing players themselves. Booing the politically linked gesture, it’s very different. But if they had half a brain cell to run together they would realise that doing so only gives people an excuse to make the reasons for them doing so convenient to their virtue quest.
But in terms of players doing the knee and people disagreeing with it. They can both do what they like as far as I’m concerned. I just wish both sides would actually be more sensible and thoughtful with their delivery, we have a situation where everyone can agree and be on the same page - but nobody seems to want to do it, because conflict is more satisfying to the cause. That really is the crux of it.
I will say though that it is going to become very tiring going through the same faux shock every time someone opposes the gesture and then pretending it must be because they are racists. I’d be interested to see how the media in the US are going to pretend Trump supporters must be racist bigots when 70m people voted for him. There comes a point where they are going to have to accept they don’t have the first clue and actually start listening to the people instead of demonising them to whatever pigeon hole is convenient to them. | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 02:06 - Jan 4 with 1153 views | Chief |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 01:57 - Jan 4 by Dr_Parnassus |
You will have to ask them, but I don’t see it as anyone booing players themselves. Booing the politically linked gesture, it’s very different. But if they had half a brain cell to run together they would realise that doing so only gives people an excuse to make the reasons for them doing so convenient to their virtue quest.
But in terms of players doing the knee and people disagreeing with it. They can both do what they like as far as I’m concerned. I just wish both sides would actually be more sensible and thoughtful with their delivery, we have a situation where everyone can agree and be on the same page - but nobody seems to want to do it, because conflict is more satisfying to the cause. That really is the crux of it.
I will say though that it is going to become very tiring going through the same faux shock every time someone opposes the gesture and then pretending it must be because they are racists. I’d be interested to see how the media in the US are going to pretend Trump supporters must be racist bigots when 70m people voted for him. There comes a point where they are going to have to accept they don’t have the first clue and actually start listening to the people instead of demonising them to whatever pigeon hole is convenient to them. |
But its gesture the players are doing and obviously feel strongly about doing so I'd be very surprised if they didn't take it personally. Some Millwall players for example came out and expressed their disappointment.
I'm not sure the people carrying out these protests care what people label them. i think certain groups like 'voice of Wales' and local UKIP followers are enjoying the publicity all this is bringing them and dont care about bringing this embarrassment on the club&what angst the players are feeling. | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 02:56 - Jan 4 with 1143 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 02:06 - Jan 4 by Chief |
But its gesture the players are doing and obviously feel strongly about doing so I'd be very surprised if they didn't take it personally. Some Millwall players for example came out and expressed their disappointment.
I'm not sure the people carrying out these protests care what people label them. i think certain groups like 'voice of Wales' and local UKIP followers are enjoying the publicity all this is bringing them and dont care about bringing this embarrassment on the club&what angst the players are feeling. |
They don’t feel strongly about the gesture, about the message maybe, but not the gesture. Nobody did it prior to the stuff in America. It is the gesture people don’t like, not the message. If the Swansea players are disappointed then it suggests they may not understand the reason, because you cannot be disappointed by people rejecting such a politically charged gesture.
Of course people don't like being labelled things they aren’t, it’s not just the protesters that are labelled this way, it is anyone who shows any dissent to the ritual. It is this attitude that is causing division and causing conflict between good people. But at the moment people seem to enjoy pretending people are racists and see it as some sort of newly coined sport. Very sad. | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 08:13 - Jan 4 with 1102 views | SkipTheJack |
I'm astonished by some of the comments on this thread. Talk of Marxism and funding the Democrat party! It seems the UK has become as deluded as the many conspiracy theorists from the political right in the US. You probably believe in Satan-worshipping paedophile cabals as well, and Bill Gates vaccine conspiracies!
Taking the knee is about racial equality, social justice, and violence towards black people. Nothing more. There's no excuse for not getting behind it unless you're a massive racist, or right-wing, conspiracy-theory-swallowing nut job. Those clowns outside the Liberty are probably both! |  | | |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 08:21 - Jan 4 with 1097 views | Chief |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 02:56 - Jan 4 by Dr_Parnassus |
They don’t feel strongly about the gesture, about the message maybe, but not the gesture. Nobody did it prior to the stuff in America. It is the gesture people don’t like, not the message. If the Swansea players are disappointed then it suggests they may not understand the reason, because you cannot be disappointed by people rejecting such a politically charged gesture.
Of course people don't like being labelled things they aren’t, it’s not just the protesters that are labelled this way, it is anyone who shows any dissent to the ritual. It is this attitude that is causing division and causing conflict between good people. But at the moment people seem to enjoy pretending people are racists and see it as some sort of newly coined sport. Very sad. |
Well i assume the players have heard the boos&or seen the media coverage&must at least be psrtially aware of the reasons being given for it happening. Yet they are still doing it, haven't reverted to something different, suggesting to me that they feel strongly about the message and gesture. | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 08:25 - Jan 4 with 1095 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 08:13 - Jan 4 by SkipTheJack |
I'm astonished by some of the comments on this thread. Talk of Marxism and funding the Democrat party! It seems the UK has become as deluded as the many conspiracy theorists from the political right in the US. You probably believe in Satan-worshipping paedophile cabals as well, and Bill Gates vaccine conspiracies!
Taking the knee is about racial equality, social justice, and violence towards black people. Nothing more. There's no excuse for not getting behind it unless you're a massive racist, or right-wing, conspiracy-theory-swallowing nut job. Those clowns outside the Liberty are probably both! |
Which part do you not believe? They aren’t theories. BLM is a Marxist organisation with their list of aims clearly listed on their website.
Your post shows ignorance unfortunately. There are many reasons to not get behind BLM and many black people themselves don’t. By your thought process they are also “massive racists” then yes? They are an awful group to want to affiliate yourself with, before doing so you really should know what you are aligning yourself with.
Because from what you wrote, it really is not what you claim it represents.
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/07/01/the-agenda-of-black-lives-
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/12/make-no-mist [Post edited 4 Jan 2021 9:18]
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 08:33 - Jan 4 with 1090 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 08:21 - Jan 4 by Chief |
Well i assume the players have heard the boos&or seen the media coverage&must at least be psrtially aware of the reasons being given for it happening. Yet they are still doing it, haven't reverted to something different, suggesting to me that they feel strongly about the message and gesture. |
How can you feel strongly about a gesture? The gesture is a newly coined thing in the sporting realm. None of them did it prior to the last 12 months, they are doing it because it is something that has come from the States started by Colin Kaepernick and adopted by BLM.
If the gesture is just as important as the cause then that signifies a political intent. I don’t think they have any idea of the political connotations. | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 09:46 - Jan 4 with 1063 views | Chief |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 08:33 - Jan 4 by Dr_Parnassus |
How can you feel strongly about a gesture? The gesture is a newly coined thing in the sporting realm. None of them did it prior to the last 12 months, they are doing it because it is something that has come from the States started by Colin Kaepernick and adopted by BLM.
If the gesture is just as important as the cause then that signifies a political intent. I don’t think they have any idea of the political connotations. |
You'll have to ask the players themselves, im just deducing what i can.
I assume they feel strongly about it because they see it as anti-racism gesture and nothing else. | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 09:52 - Jan 4 with 1055 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 09:46 - Jan 4 by Chief |
You'll have to ask the players themselves, im just deducing what i can.
I assume they feel strongly about it because they see it as anti-racism gesture and nothing else. |
But if that is the case then they would just do another gesture that gets everyone on board that means the same thing, except the removal of what people see as the clear political link to the extreme left.
Doesn't make much sense. | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 09:57 - Jan 4 with 1052 views | KeithHaynes |
Moved over to this forum 👠|  |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 10:04 - Jan 4 with 1048 views | onehunglow |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 21:00 - Jan 3 by Sirjohnalot |
If I may reply ?
I may have misread your post but when you talk about white working class people in shit areas feeling disadvantaged and you having to help me, it sounds as though you think that, due to my job, I’ve come from a posh area ? I didn’t. I came from Neath, dad a steelworker, didn’t have much money, went to Cefn Saeson Comp, had no one in the law, saw people with connections getting ahead of me, so in a way I was disadvantaged.
However, being white, does bring its advantages, several of my colleagues, barristers and solicitors who are black, have been asked by staff in court (the magistrates where there’s no wigs and gowns) if they were the defendant. I’ve been doing the job for 17 years and have never been asked that.
I for one, don’t blame Ayew for the black power salute, he should be contemptuous of how black people have been treated over the years and continue to be. I still see a high amount of racist offences in court frequently.
I’m not racist, I don’t know much about our colonial past, but I still can understand what happened and how our white ancestors did. Why should we feel indignation just because we were not guilty ? Surely we can empathise with what black people went through,
Hardly any Germans alive today were around in WW2 but they would still be revolted by what happened, conversely, many British people were not born but still boast about the war when it was nothing to do with them.
So yes, of course some white people will feel disadvantaged but due to our skin colour black people from the same area will have another hurdle to jump over. |
Thank you.
This time last year I met a South East circuit judge in Barbados. Very interesting chats did we have under the palm trees with a background of Caribbean waves reaching the shore. No way would one thought he a senior judge. | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 10:25 - Jan 4 with 1036 views | Chief |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 09:52 - Jan 4 by Dr_Parnassus |
But if that is the case then they would just do another gesture that gets everyone on board that means the same thing, except the removal of what people see as the clear political link to the extreme left.
Doesn't make much sense. |
Well it's perfectly logical that they think it of it as a purely anti racism gesture and nothing else.
And maybe they don't think they should change it due people misappropriating / misrepresenting / misinterpreting it. Maybe they think like some people on here that the people openly opposing it are racists, which makes them even more determined not to give in to their wishes?
I don't think that's beyond the realms of possibly is it? | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 10:31 - Jan 4 with 1030 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 10:25 - Jan 4 by Chief |
Well it's perfectly logical that they think it of it as a purely anti racism gesture and nothing else.
And maybe they don't think they should change it due people misappropriating / misrepresenting / misinterpreting it. Maybe they think like some people on here that the people openly opposing it are racists, which makes them even more determined not to give in to their wishes?
I don't think that's beyond the realms of possibly is it? |
But the gesture isn't for them, its to promote unity. If others don't see it as that then it's not really fit for purpose.
Seems a desire to have conflict to me, or a complete lack of understanding of the topic. Either one. | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 10:36 - Jan 4 with 1030 views | Chief |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 10:31 - Jan 4 by Dr_Parnassus |
But the gesture isn't for them, its to promote unity. If others don't see it as that then it's not really fit for purpose.
Seems a desire to have conflict to me, or a complete lack of understanding of the topic. Either one. |
We have black players, id say its definitely for them. As i say whether its fit for purpose or should be for the players (mainly the black players I'd suggest) to decide.
The only desire for conflict i can see is coming from the people actively opposing the act. | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 10:41 - Jan 4 with 1027 views | onehunglow |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 10:36 - Jan 4 by Chief |
We have black players, id say its definitely for them. As i say whether its fit for purpose or should be for the players (mainly the black players I'd suggest) to decide.
The only desire for conflict i can see is coming from the people actively opposing the act. |
That is fair comment .
Quite how most white players feel I don't really know but I'd suggest there is an air of resignation about this gesture.
All are equal.All have not been. Let' be clear about that. | |
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| Knee booed by horny fans? on 10:44 - Jan 4 with 1025 views | Chief |
| Knee booed by horny fans? on 10:41 - Jan 4 by onehunglow |
That is fair comment .
Quite how most white players feel I don't really know but I'd suggest there is an air of resignation about this gesture.
All are equal.All have not been. Let' be clear about that. |
I can see some players feeling an air of resignation about yes, similar to Assombalonga. I can see others resolve being strengthened too however.
All SHOULD be equal. In reality, sadly that's not the case, hence gestures such as this. | |
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