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Parking aside the "boring" jibe - which by the way shows a chronic lack of self awareness on this particular topic. You're six months deep into your own dull crusade on this.
Broadly, I agree with you on the playing style issue. However what I'm able to do that you aren't is recognise that irrespective of style, this guy has kept us in this league and that there doesn't seem to be a plan to replace him. God help is if we go through 2 months of Routlegde or Leroy in the hole.
The question still stands unanswered - and gets tougher by the day: how do we successfully replace his consistent and critical contribution THIS season? Because if we don't, we'll go the same way as Middlesbrough.
I think you are missing the point EJ.
Last season we were set up in such a way where only two people were going to create and score the chances. The one taking the set pieces and the one heading them in. Both Llorente and Sigurdsson were contributing the most on paper in an attacking sense by design, not by sheer game winning talent.
Wonderfully gifted footballers mind, the pair of them, however to look at goals and assists alone may lead someone to believe it was due to them taking the game by the scruff of the neck and carrying the team on their back to victory. That wasn't the case, we were simply set up as a team that way.
So without Siggy and with a more mobile forward, our goals that came from strict plays thay were solely set up for either to be the contributor to the scoreline - are now going to be spread amongst the team with a more fluid and dynamic attack. So Ayew should chip in with more than his 1 goal last year, Carroll should chip in with a few more etc etc so it isnt a case of replacing Siggy with someone who will score the same amount of goals, we are replacing Siggy with a style of play which will replace his goals on its own simply by sharing the chances out due to having a greater variety of goalscoring chances.
Obviously we will need a good player to replace him with, but that goes without saying. However I don't believe he is worth anywhere near £50m snd don't believe he genuinelly has the influence over the side that the stats suggest. Just as I don't believe Britton was a good a passer of the ball as Xavi - we were just set up in a way which allowed them to be comparable. He most certainly is replaceable, we just have to make sure they are financially right for the club and not get blinded by what we get put into our bank as it is a one time transfer and not a regular income.
I agree on the £50m over valuation. It was clearly a "go away" price tag
Regardless. I think we're going to find out what life without him is like. We need lightning to strike twice and unearth another Michu
[Post edited 10 Aug 2017 0:38]
We have already, he hasnt always been here and already left us once. We coped perfectly fine.
We have had our least successful seasons with him here. Because as good as he is, he weakens the rest of the team as their strengths get blunted. Everything instead goes through him and plays to his strengths and we suffer for it.
Unfortunately he lacks the mobility to be able to continue playing the fast paced game we enjoyed for a few seasons at our best and so our whole system and mentality changes to accomodate him. Clearly we do far better when playing as a team than playing to the strengths of one excellent olayer that simply cannot play our style of play effectively.
We have already, he hasnt always been here and already left us once. We coped perfectly fine.
We have had our least successful seasons with him here. Because as good as he is, he weakens the rest of the team as their strengths get blunted. Everything instead goes through him and plays to his strengths and we suffer for it.
Unfortunately he lacks the mobility to be able to continue playing the fast paced game we enjoyed for a few seasons at our best and so our whole system and mentality changes to accomodate him. Clearly we do far better when playing as a team than playing to the strengths of one excellent olayer that simply cannot play our style of play effectively.
As I said, Last time we had Michu. This time, we have.... Routledge?
Anyway. Opinions have been shared and we're all in the same boat.
I'll leave you with this: Be careful what you wish for...
As I said, Last time we had Michu. This time, we have.... Routledge?
Anyway. Opinions have been shared and we're all in the same boat.
I'll leave you with this: Be careful what you wish for...
He isn't going to stay forever is he. So it is better to replace him when we have the chance to get £50m to help do it - rather than wait a few seasons and have to do it anyway... but with nothing. I assure you we will find it a lot harder rummaging in the bargain bins for a player to replace him with.
Now that we will revert to the old style and that position will no longer be an instrumental focal point, I would be more than happy with Fer there until we find a player right for the club in all aspects. I think we have more than enough about us. Fer has always looked impressive in that role, but he isnt a fashionable name to some.
Parking aside the "boring" jibe - which by the way shows a chronic lack of self awareness on this particular topic. You're six months deep into your own dull crusade on this.
Broadly, I agree with you on the playing style issue. However what I'm able to do that you aren't is recognise that irrespective of style, this guy has kept us in this league and that there doesn't seem to be a plan to replace him. God help is if we go through 2 months of Routlegde or Leroy in the hole.
The question still stands unanswered - and gets tougher by the day: how do we successfully replace his consistent and critical contribution THIS season? Because if we don't, we'll go the same way as Middlesbrough.
Let's just wait and see is it?
I am confident if Clement can replace Siggy with players he feels capable, we will be better as a team in general and we'll see a better brand of free flowing football. Flowing enough to not have to worry about relegation.
I have felt this for a long time.
And it really is the best time for both parties to go their separate ways. It just needs to happen bloody quickly.
Trust me.
* BOX OFFICE POST ABOVE* TM
I am the resurrection and i am the light. I couldn’t ever bring myself to hate you as i’d like
We'd be less reliant on one player if we had a better squad which is the point many of us are making.
I wouldn't have got rid in January as I don't believe we'd have been able to make the necessary changes to save ourselves, but being so reliant on one player is not healthy. What if he gets injured?
The point Eastern is making, and done a fine job of, is that there is no guarantee we'll have a "better squad" if we sell Siggy. It's actually quite the opposite.
We will have to replace him with quality or we go down. That is obvious. Quality costs money. So there's a big chunk gone, just on one player. If it's Viera, I'd be more optimistic on our chances of staying up. Anyone else, bar an absolutely shocking (Berardi, anyone?) signing, and I don't like our chances of staying up.
Either way, after that we have £10m, and that's being very generous, to strengthen the squad. I'd imagine we'd end up with Chadli and Yiadom at vastly inflated prices, and that would probably be that. That is a perfect recipe for relegation, and again that's being very generous.
If we were to sell Siggy and sign Viera, Capa, and one of Roberts or Munir, I might be optimistic. But, based on years and years of our club ffukkingg these things up, I don't have much confidence that's how it would transpire. Also, if everyone on here is so certain we should've sold at £40m- £45m two months ago, then the club is being run shoddily, correct?
So, if that's the case, why would anyone have any confidence we'd replace Siggy with quality this late in the window? If The Americans are ffukkingg up so badly, according to some on here, then why would that change now?
Last season we were set up in such a way where only two people were going to create and score the chances. The one taking the set pieces and the one heading them in. Both Llorente and Sigurdsson were contributing the most on paper in an attacking sense by design, not by sheer game winning talent.
Wonderfully gifted footballers mind, the pair of them, however to look at goals and assists alone may lead someone to believe it was due to them taking the game by the scruff of the neck and carrying the team on their back to victory. That wasn't the case, we were simply set up as a team that way.
So without Siggy and with a more mobile forward, our goals that came from strict plays thay were solely set up for either to be the contributor to the scoreline - are now going to be spread amongst the team with a more fluid and dynamic attack. So Ayew should chip in with more than his 1 goal last year, Carroll should chip in with a few more etc etc so it isnt a case of replacing Siggy with someone who will score the same amount of goals, we are replacing Siggy with a style of play which will replace his goals on its own simply by sharing the chances out due to having a greater variety of goalscoring chances.
Obviously we will need a good player to replace him with, but that goes without saying. However I don't believe he is worth anywhere near £50m snd don't believe he genuinelly has the influence over the side that the stats suggest. Just as I don't believe Britton was a good a passer of the ball as Xavi - we were just set up in a way which allowed them to be comparable. He most certainly is replaceable, we just have to make sure they are financially right for the club and not get blinded by what we get put into our bank as it is a one time transfer and not a regular income.
[Post edited 10 Aug 2017 0:34]
So Ayew and Carroll will score the goals and pick up the slack even though neither have a reputation for scoring goals?
If setting up differently was the answer then why didn't we play that way last season when things were going against us i wonder.
I get the principle of your argument though, IMO we need to hope Tammy is a bit special and players start off confident and grow from there, i think we will struggle for goals which is a recipe for disaster in this league, hopefully Tammy will be the superstar striker to make things happen but if we lose Llorente and Siggy we lose 25 goals and around 15 assists so that needs to come from somewhere.
Football is an open, fluid game that lasts an hour and a half. It is impossible to gameplan solely around one player, unless you are playing in the park with Messi. It's even more ridiculous to claim that's what happens at all, ever, as some have been doing on here.
Very naive, and I can promise you Clement didn't instruct the team to check with Siggy before they dribble, pass, and shoot. It's being made out like no one but Siggy ever touches the ball, and everyone else just stands around waiting for his cue. It's also apparently his fault we have had so many one-dimensional bargain bin classics in our squad for so long. It's posing of the worst kind, and it's just lazy and vacuous. It's a great way to slate a footballer without actually saying anything of substance. So, allow me.
Yes, Siggy is phenomenal with a deadball, and intelligent and relentless in his pressing. But he doesn't just run around a lot and take free kicks. I've seen this on here so frequently (mostly emanating from res, but still) and it's always bbullsshitt, every time. Siggy lacks pace, of course. But it's not like he's John Terry, FFS. Either way, the rest of his game more than makes up for that.
He almost always finds/creates open space for himself and others with his intelligent movement; his technique is consistently damn-near perfect with both feet; he's got the vision to switch the play and find runners in behind the defence; the creativity to pull off flicks and backheels; great touch and accuracy with one-twos and link-up play; superb shot from distance and very good at tucking away chances.
I could keep going, but I think I've made my point. If anyone's interested, though, just ask.
Football is an open, fluid game that lasts an hour and a half. It is impossible to gameplan solely around one player, unless you are playing in the park with Messi. It's even more ridiculous to claim that's what happens at all, ever, as some have been doing on here.
Very naive, and I can promise you Clement didn't instruct the team to check with Siggy before they dribble, pass, and shoot. It's being made out like no one but Siggy ever touches the ball, and everyone else just stands around waiting for his cue. It's also apparently his fault we have had so many one-dimensional bargain bin classics in our squad for so long. It's posing of the worst kind, and it's just lazy and vacuous. It's a great way to slate a footballer without actually saying anything of substance. So, allow me.
Yes, Siggy is phenomenal with a deadball, and intelligent and relentless in his pressing. But he doesn't just run around a lot and take free kicks. I've seen this on here so frequently (mostly emanating from res, but still) and it's always bbullsshitt, every time. Siggy lacks pace, of course. But it's not like he's John Terry, FFS. Either way, the rest of his game more than makes up for that.
He almost always finds/creates open space for himself and others with his intelligent movement; his technique is consistently damn-near perfect with both feet; he's got the vision to switch the play and find runners in behind the defence; the creativity to pull off flicks and backheels; great touch and accuracy with one-twos and link-up play; superb shot from distance and very good at tucking away chances.
I could keep going, but I think I've made my point. If anyone's interested, though, just ask.
Explain why you believe the concept of marginal utility is the correct way of judging Siggy's worth to the Swans.
Sounds as though Lisa skipped Economics 101. One would, of course, need to consider marginal utility for both seller and buyer at various price points. Almost any Economics textbook will explain the general drift re utility, demand and price. Anybody interested can read the first page or two here:
So Ayew and Carroll will score the goals and pick up the slack even though neither have a reputation for scoring goals?
If setting up differently was the answer then why didn't we play that way last season when things were going against us i wonder.
I get the principle of your argument though, IMO we need to hope Tammy is a bit special and players start off confident and grow from there, i think we will struggle for goals which is a recipe for disaster in this league, hopefully Tammy will be the superstar striker to make things happen but if we lose Llorente and Siggy we lose 25 goals and around 15 assists so that needs to come from somewhere.
Carroll had one or two assists last season didn't he?!
How many did he get in one game without Siggy on Saturday??!!
FFS man....
* BOX OFFICE POST ABOVE* TM
I am the resurrection and i am the light. I couldn’t ever bring myself to hate you as i’d like
Football is an open, fluid game that lasts an hour and a half. It is impossible to gameplan solely around one player, unless you are playing in the park with Messi. It's even more ridiculous to claim that's what happens at all, ever, as some have been doing on here.
Very naive, and I can promise you Clement didn't instruct the team to check with Siggy before they dribble, pass, and shoot. It's being made out like no one but Siggy ever touches the ball, and everyone else just stands around waiting for his cue. It's also apparently his fault we have had so many one-dimensional bargain bin classics in our squad for so long. It's posing of the worst kind, and it's just lazy and vacuous. It's a great way to slate a footballer without actually saying anything of substance. So, allow me.
Yes, Siggy is phenomenal with a deadball, and intelligent and relentless in his pressing. But he doesn't just run around a lot and take free kicks. I've seen this on here so frequently (mostly emanating from res, but still) and it's always bbullsshitt, every time. Siggy lacks pace, of course. But it's not like he's John Terry, FFS. Either way, the rest of his game more than makes up for that.
He almost always finds/creates open space for himself and others with his intelligent movement; his technique is consistently damn-near perfect with both feet; he's got the vision to switch the play and find runners in behind the defence; the creativity to pull off flicks and backheels; great touch and accuracy with one-twos and link-up play; superb shot from distance and very good at tucking away chances.
I could keep going, but I think I've made my point. If anyone's interested, though, just ask.
[Post edited 10 Aug 2017 5:42]
Allow me to point out what should be the bloody obvious.
Nobody is interested because you've made the biggest kunt of yourself humanly possible the last few weeks.
Here's £20 now fack off back to Noddy Noddy land.
* BOX OFFICE POST ABOVE* TM
I am the resurrection and i am the light. I couldn’t ever bring myself to hate you as i’d like
Sounds as though Lisa skipped Economics 101. One would, of course, need to consider marginal utility for both seller and buyer at various price points. Almost any Economics textbook will explain the general drift re utility, demand and price. Anybody interested can read the first page or two here:
My point was not that it wasn't a relevant way of measuring 'value' but more that a poster that has on a number of occasions told everyone how boring the financial aspects of football are would not understand your post. And therefore, by making the point that your post was 'excellent', he was simply posturing as it seemed, to him, to be vaguely supportive of his own position.
As an aside, sports like baseball and cricket etc are probably better served by using mariginal utility to ascertain value. Football is more difficult as it's hard to tell how many points (which I assume is your suggestion) are directly earned by a single player, although many articles have attempted it before, as I'm sure you've seen.
Football is an open, fluid game that lasts an hour and a half. It is impossible to gameplan solely around one player, unless you are playing in the park with Messi. It's even more ridiculous to claim that's what happens at all, ever, as some have been doing on here.
Very naive, and I can promise you Clement didn't instruct the team to check with Siggy before they dribble, pass, and shoot. It's being made out like no one but Siggy ever touches the ball, and everyone else just stands around waiting for his cue. It's also apparently his fault we have had so many one-dimensional bargain bin classics in our squad for so long. It's posing of the worst kind, and it's just lazy and vacuous. It's a great way to slate a footballer without actually saying anything of substance. So, allow me.
Yes, Siggy is phenomenal with a deadball, and intelligent and relentless in his pressing. But he doesn't just run around a lot and take free kicks. I've seen this on here so frequently (mostly emanating from res, but still) and it's always bbullsshitt, every time. Siggy lacks pace, of course. But it's not like he's John Terry, FFS. Either way, the rest of his game more than makes up for that.
He almost always finds/creates open space for himself and others with his intelligent movement; his technique is consistently damn-near perfect with both feet; he's got the vision to switch the play and find runners in behind the defence; the creativity to pull off flicks and backheels; great touch and accuracy with one-twos and link-up play; superb shot from distance and very good at tucking away chances.
I could keep going, but I think I've made my point. If anyone's interested, though, just ask.
Allow me to point out what should be the bloody obvious.
Nobody is interested because you've made the biggest kunt of yourself humanly possible the last few weeks.
Here's £20 now fack off back to Noddy Noddy land.
I would like to take some credit for that. He has gone from super scout, ex pro, lothario to a wibbling mess in the corner shaking and just repeating "dimi" over and over. This forum is a wonderful place at times.
You're right. I broadly agree with on this. But the reality is that we are dependent on him and we're 3 days away from the start of the season with no plan to replace this dependency in place.
The time to deal with this was June/July.
I personally think that he's going to go and we'll be forced to deal with it. The only confidence I have is that we have an excellent manager and coach who at least gives us a chance. However it's a big ask with no guarantees (injury and playing style aside - Siggy does give us those guarantees)
We've seen it happen before (with Michu).
Also, in a game where injuries can and do happen fairly frequently, it's a relevant concern if a team is so reliant on one single player.
But I agree with you on timing, which is why I have said time and time again, that the offer of a few weeks ago should have been accepted, and that holding out for an increase was cutting off our nose to spite our face.
I would like to take some credit for that. He has gone from super scout, ex pro, lothario to a wibbling mess in the corner shaking and just repeating "dimi" over and over. This forum is a wonderful place at times.
I know it's agentdimi from the old board days, no proof but I know.
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