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Reading the Prince Philip thread and some suggesting a republic set me thinking. I was going to post this on that thread but decided to open a new one. I'm interested in the reasons of those that want a republic. Do they also want to get rid of the title "Head of State". If so then leave it to the Prime Minister and you have an argument. If we do carry on the HoS how is he or she appointed. Just nominated by someone or some group or elected. Lets forget the former. If elected surely they would want some power which then sifts how we are governed. When would they be elected, at a General Election or a fixed term. If no political power who would vote even the General Election gets poor turn outs. Where would they live, Buckingham Palace or some two up two down in Railway Cuttings. How much would the office cost more or less than the monarchy. Do people who want a republic just want it because they do not like the idea of a monarchy or have they given it more thought
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Republic or Monarchy on 16:21 - Apr 10 with 2178 views
Republic or monarchy isn't much of a choice for me. I'd say neither. Republics aren't necessarily very democratic, very egalitarian or particularly admirable.
In any event, what we need isn't really an argument about heads of state, it's about what society looks like. What really makes a difference is what happens at a neighbourhood level or in workplaces. The political orthodoxy is that governments change those things with policy, but I'd say that waiting for this or that flavour of government to change our lives for the better is properly in vain.
What interests me is radical grassroots democracy in neighbourhoods and workplaces, member-led unions, communalism and rebuilding our society from the ground up. I honestly don't give a f*ck who lives in the Palace or whether some fools voted for them in the entirely broken belief that they might make a difference for the better.
The interesting aspect of this though, which cuts straight across so many political and social divides, is that we can move towards a society we'd all like without concern for the label we put on the state. I'd say that worrying unduly about crowns or the lack of them is a massive distraction.
‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’
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Republic or Monarchy (n/t) on 16:52 - Apr 10 with 2136 views
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
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Republic or Monarchy on 17:09 - Apr 10 with 2111 views
Republic or Monarchy on 16:21 - Apr 10 by kropotkin41
Republic or monarchy isn't much of a choice for me. I'd say neither. Republics aren't necessarily very democratic, very egalitarian or particularly admirable.
In any event, what we need isn't really an argument about heads of state, it's about what society looks like. What really makes a difference is what happens at a neighbourhood level or in workplaces. The political orthodoxy is that governments change those things with policy, but I'd say that waiting for this or that flavour of government to change our lives for the better is properly in vain.
What interests me is radical grassroots democracy in neighbourhoods and workplaces, member-led unions, communalism and rebuilding our society from the ground up. I honestly don't give a f*ck who lives in the Palace or whether some fools voted for them in the entirely broken belief that they might make a difference for the better.
The interesting aspect of this though, which cuts straight across so many political and social divides, is that we can move towards a society we'd all like without concern for the label we put on the state. I'd say that worrying unduly about crowns or the lack of them is a massive distraction.
Interesting post, kropotkin41, but I'd expect nothing less given your moniker name.
If we've moved the conversation on to discussing getting rid of the artificial structure we understand as 'nation states', that would move us closer to the fundamental issues that need to be changed.
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Republic or Monarchy on 19:04 - Apr 10 with 1949 views
Republic or Monarchy on 14:21 - Apr 10 by W12Mikey
In the spirit of historical pedantry... no we didn't. The Dutch Republic existed from 1588 (or 1581 if you count it from their declaration of independence). And no doubt there were other republics before that (Switzerland? the Roman Republic? )
Well the Dutch naused it up as well then.
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Republic or Monarchy on 23:06 - Apr 10 with 1838 views
Interesting post, kropotkin41, but I'd expect nothing less given your moniker name.
If we've moved the conversation on to discussing getting rid of the artificial structure we understand as 'nation states', that would move us closer to the fundamental issues that need to be changed.
I agree, we do need that conversation. It won't surprise you to know that I want to see the definitive end of nation-states, and the creation of genuinely democratic societies. I didn't want to derail the thread too much.
However, if anyone is interested in societies without states... let along monarchs or presidents, then #GoogleBookchin and find out about Rojava.
‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’
Republic or Monarchy on 13:59 - Apr 10 by BazzaInTheLoft
I think it must be a generational thing.
Genuinely didn’t get taught a stitch about any trade Union movement when I was at school. It was mostly Tudors, industrial Revolution minus the Luddites, and WWII and Churchill. Nothing on foundation of welfare state etc. Child of Thatcher I guess.
The Tolpuddle festival is amazing and can’t recommend enough.
If only you’d been taught all that stuff you’d have turned out to be a much more rounded human being.
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Republic or Monarchy on 00:44 - Apr 11 with 1783 views
We should be a republic. Let's be clear our ancestors fought a civil war and while we won some concessions, we still fund them and worse than all of that the Queen is in charge of all the armed forces, all of em.
So, at any time she can stage an armed coup and we cannot even relieve her of that power in the chain of command. You know, when some leader goes mad and the underlings use some obscure rule to throw them out. Nope, we cannot even do that.
Therefore we actually now have to have another civil war to get the royals out of that too. Whenever this is raised its like, "oh well she would never do that". Maybe so, but we don't know what her kin will do once that power goes to their heads and who over those many years is messing with their heads in between now and then.
Some will say "oh but even if elected you could get Trump", yeah and you can also elect someone else once you find out what they really like. That's the point of democracy, we can change up. This lot we have to worry about and bear on the backs for tax payers. And after all of that they could just seize power using the chain of command.
But with our current head of the armed forces, no democracy and even no pseudo meritocracy. That's a complete insult to all the armed service personnel who had to work their way up the ranks, from top to bottom.
They live off the fat of our work, while we have kids who go hungry that even a rich footballer can see it, we have people with no homes, while they have several castles and massive estates that could house all, they have cultural artifacts that belong in musems, while we are charged to go and see the crown jewals which aren't even the real ones. Even if we threw them out tomorrow they would all get reality TV netflix deals.
They leech more than they add, as any income from tourism and status trade deals, is not as much the above that could have ALL our kids be well-fed, all our British people homed and all the cultural artefacts on display for all of the British people to see anytime they like for free, without doffing our heads ever again.
zzzzzzzzzz
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Republic or Monarchy on 01:32 - Apr 11 with 1727 views
Republic or Monarchy on 12:23 - Apr 10 by ted_hendrix
I'm strictly against the Monarchy and I find it repulsive as I always have done , for the life of me I could never understand how fellow human beings had to bow and curtsey in front of other fellow human beings, that's not the reason for my anti-Royal stance of course its not but I could give you a thousand other reasons If I could be arsed which I cant.
It's a dreadful institution that will be here long after I'm gone.
I agree re not bowing or kotowing to any fellow human. We are all made in the image of God and we are all equal, regardless of anything. Let us treat everyone with dignity and respect. There will be a time, and very soon judging by the way the world is heading, when every knee will bow to the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the One worth bowing to.
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Republic or Monarchy on 04:41 - Apr 11 with 1661 views
I agree re not bowing or kotowing to any fellow human. We are all made in the image of God and we are all equal, regardless of anything. Let us treat everyone with dignity and respect. There will be a time, and very soon judging by the way the world is heading, when every knee will bow to the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the One worth bowing to.
I think it's way more likely that we are a laboratory experiment and our creators are machine elves, who our consciousness returns to after death and whilst alive we can get in touch with via DMT/Ayahuasca.
Anyhow I thought we were a Democracy with an extremely decent and devoted (In the main...Andrew ) royal family
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Republic or Monarchy on 07:31 - Apr 11 with 1630 views
Republic or Monarchy on 23:06 - Apr 10 by kropotkin41
I agree, we do need that conversation. It won't surprise you to know that I want to see the definitive end of nation-states, and the creation of genuinely democratic societies. I didn't want to derail the thread too much.
However, if anyone is interested in societies without states... let along monarchs or presidents, then #GoogleBookchin and find out about Rojava.
really good posts, Kropotkin. The first one in particular has led to some self analysis - how we can try and make change at the micro level, rather then getting frustrated at the big picture. Alas, not a lot happening locally, one marxist councillor with some fire in his belly! The unions over here, are really disappointing, speak big words but no actual back up to the workers. A while ago, the BBC did a programme about some British envoy to the UN, a friend of David Kelly's, who had found Anarchy. He went to Rojava. Fascinating.
Edit - just googled Rojava- my ignorance was on full display there for a couple of minutes!
[Post edited 11 Apr 2021 7:33]
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Republic or Monarchy on 08:25 - Apr 11 with 1585 views
One thing I think will definitely happen, when Queen Elizabeth II dies, that’ll be the beginning of the end of the Commonwealth as we know it. Australia, Canada, probably New Zealand and countless African countries will untie their links to ‘the motherland’ and be totally independent of British authority.
Also, I think people’s perceptions of the Royal Family will dramatically change once the Queen dies, as she’s the glue that’s held it together all these years. Prince Charles isn’t so popular, and there’s many who say that it should miss a generation and go straight to William.
In my view, the monarchy will remain for the foreseeable. But when the Queen dies, I think it’ll be slimmed down somewhat.
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Republic or Monarchy on 09:05 - Apr 11 with 1546 views
We describe our country as a democracy. However our head of state is a child of the last person to do the job. People who sit in our parliament have not been elected by anyone. The year is 2021. That is simply ridiculous.
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Republic or Monarchy on 09:16 - Apr 11 with 1520 views
Republic or Monarchy on 09:05 - Apr 11 by easthertsr
We describe our country as a democracy. However our head of state is a child of the last person to do the job. People who sit in our parliament have not been elected by anyone. The year is 2021. That is simply ridiculous.
Could be worse, look at Iran and North Korea.
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Republic or Monarchy on 10:13 - Apr 11 with 1473 views
Republic or Monarchy on 10:13 - Apr 11 by BazzaInTheLoft
Other than Iran there is only one other country that has unelected clergy in government.
The clergy are in “government” to the same extent as the Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn, ie parliamentarians outside the whipping system and without a position of authority.
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Republic or Monarchy on 10:52 - Apr 11 with 1416 views
The clergy are in “government” to the same extent as the Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn, ie parliamentarians outside the whipping system and without a position of authority.
Semantics really.
Legislation passes or falls at the hands of unelected clergy, as it does with JC, or any other independent or cross bencher, or minority party.
It’s not ethical and certainly not democratic to have unelected clergy in our Parliamentary system, however you want to label it. If we are rightly going to attack Iran for it we should get our own house in order.
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Republic or Monarchy on 11:04 - Apr 11 with 1390 views
Republic or Monarchy on 10:52 - Apr 11 by BazzaInTheLoft
Semantics really.
Legislation passes or falls at the hands of unelected clergy, as it does with JC, or any other independent or cross bencher, or minority party.
It’s not ethical and certainly not democratic to have unelected clergy in our Parliamentary system, however you want to label it. If we are rightly going to attack Iran for it we should get our own house in order.
They sit in a chamber that is wholly unelected, so there is nothing particularly outlandish about their presence, which is 3.3% of the total.
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