| Salmon v Sturgeon 18:52 - Feb 24 with 13229 views | welwynranger |
Theres something fishy going on in Scotland. |  | | |  |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 14:01 - Mar 1 with 1484 views | BucksRanger |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 13:40 - Mar 1 by BazzaInTheLoft |
If B***** has taught us anything, it’s that the electorate love being called stupid and easily manipulated. |
Do you consider the electorate to be stupid and easily manipulated? In your eyes, would the nation be better served if there was no electorate? |  | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 14:08 - Mar 1 with 1492 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 13:45 - Mar 1 by gazza1 |
Who is B*****? |
Brian McCarthy |  | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 14:10 - Mar 1 with 1488 views | karl |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 13:48 - Mar 1 by gazza1 |
I would like to know how they intend to run their country financially if they become independent.....likewise what will happen to all the national type civic service type matters.
They need to move on just like the non brexiteers are doing in England..... |
I'm not an independence voter but why is Scotland unique in being unable to manage its affairs if it was independent?
It may involve making cuts etc but similar sized countries around the world manage perfectly well without some of the natural resources Scotland has. |  | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 14:11 - Mar 1 with 1488 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 13:56 - Feb 27 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I'd go further than to say single issue parties everywhere fall off generally when in power.
You'll know better than me but I gather Sinn Fein's resurgence in ROI is down to embracing issues over housing and poverty instead of being solely concentrating on a United Ireland and anti Unionism.
The SNP is a party that has managed to accommodate Right Wing anti-gay Nationalists like Brian Souter who wants a low tax conservative Neo Liberal Scotland and Left Wing gay Nationalists like Mairie Black who wants a high tax Socialist Scotland.
How could they possible get on when their only shared goal is removed? |
"You'll know better than me but I gather Sinn Fein's resurgence in ROI is down to embracing issues over housing and poverty instead of being solely concentrating on a United Ireland and anti Unionism."
Agreed, and a huge protest vote against FF and FG. SF's strong showing was not a swing to the left or a swing towards Nationalism. |  |
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| Salmon v Sturgeon on 14:11 - Mar 1 with 1488 views | CiderwithRsie |
Basic problem with any nationalism (including English) is that disloyalty to the ideology and/or party becomes disloyalty to the people. Everything becomes Us or Them. Worst case people actually want you put on trial but even mild forms mean that questioning becomes "talking down the country" and it's not just what others say about you, it's how you start to censor yourself once you've drunk the Cool Aid.
I don't like Scottish nationalism one bit but it'd be daft to ignore that English nationalism helps fuel it. The Sovereignty Of The People cat is out of the bag on these islands and I don't know how much of the furniture it will manage to pee on before it goes back in, if ever. | | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 14:14 - Mar 1 with 1469 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 14:01 - Mar 1 by BucksRanger |
Do you consider the electorate to be stupid and easily manipulated? In your eyes, would the nation be better served if there was no electorate? |
I was responding sarcastically to Toast’s post, but I can say yes if it helps you find something to get angry at? | | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 14:23 - Mar 1 with 1415 views | BucksRanger |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 14:14 - Mar 1 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I was responding sarcastically to Toast’s post, but I can say yes if it helps you find something to get angry at? |
Sarcasm. I had no idea. | | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:17 - Mar 1 with 1375 views | LazyFan |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 14:11 - Mar 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
"You'll know better than me but I gather Sinn Fein's resurgence in ROI is down to embracing issues over housing and poverty instead of being solely concentrating on a United Ireland and anti Unionism."
Agreed, and a huge protest vote against FF and FG. SF's strong showing was not a swing to the left or a swing towards Nationalism. |
Willing to look at housing and poverty look like issues on the left to me.
Not knowing the politics over there, I would gather the FF and FG are probably in the pockets of capitalism gaming it as some sort of centrist type parties (which means pro-capital) and SF were the only ones to stand up against them.
So, it seems a swing to the left to me. Unless of course there is a massive hunger for united Ireland not seen in the south for some time. |  |
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| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:24 - Mar 1 with 1362 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:17 - Mar 1 by LazyFan |
Willing to look at housing and poverty look like issues on the left to me.
Not knowing the politics over there, I would gather the FF and FG are probably in the pockets of capitalism gaming it as some sort of centrist type parties (which means pro-capital) and SF were the only ones to stand up against them.
So, it seems a swing to the left to me. Unless of course there is a massive hunger for united Ireland not seen in the south for some time. |
I think the data after the election suggested that most of the people who voted SF for the first time did so just because they were not FF, FG or even Labour or Greens who'd been tarnished by propping up FF and FG.
I would have to question SF's leftist credentials, personally, as their performance in Stormont has been erratic from what I've read. I would also question whether they have stood up tp FF and FG, or will. Presently, they're lining up to go into coalition with the right, and they never even chatted to the left parties about forming a Government at the last election. I agree with you completely that FF and FG are in the pockets of business and the establishment. | |
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| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:25 - Mar 1 with 1359 views | gazza1 |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 14:10 - Mar 1 by karl |
I'm not an independence voter but why is Scotland unique in being unable to manage its affairs if it was independent?
It may involve making cuts etc but similar sized countries around the world manage perfectly well without some of the natural resources Scotland has. |
Because they get 'big wedge' from the Westminster government......not sure what they give to south of the border. What natural resources do they have??? | | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:26 - Mar 1 with 1358 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:25 - Mar 1 by gazza1 |
Because they get 'big wedge' from the Westminster government......not sure what they give to south of the border. What natural resources do they have??? |
They really don’t.
Westminster sent £32bn to Scotland via a block grant in 2020. Scotland’s economy is worth £200bn.
That’s around 15% but consider Scotland won’t be paying towards our inflated military budget so you can knock another 4% off of that. I know that’s a incredibly simplified view of Scotland’s economy but I don’t the think the Barnett formula loss would be insurmountable. My worry for Scotland is that they go down the Neo Liberal financial services / Irish tax haven model instead of a Nordic one.
It’s irrelevant anyway because I would imagine most Yes voters are voting with their hearts and not their heads. [Post edited 1 Mar 2021 15:44]
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| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:29 - Mar 1 with 1353 views | gazza1 |
Need to grow up Baz  | | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:32 - Mar 1 with 1316 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
2 pages and I have not said a word
yet  |  |
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| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:35 - Mar 1 with 1344 views | kensalriser |
Colonial mindset - they'll (always note the 'They') never survive without us! |  |
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| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:40 - Mar 1 with 1330 views | QPR_John |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 14:10 - Mar 1 by karl |
I'm not an independence voter but why is Scotland unique in being unable to manage its affairs if it was independent?
It may involve making cuts etc but similar sized countries around the world manage perfectly well without some of the natural resources Scotland has. |
An independent Scotland will be politically separate from England but as with Eire it will still be intrinsically linked with England on a human level. This manifests itself with the CTA between the UK and Eire. This caused no problem with the EU as both countries joined at the same time. However it caused immense problems when the UK left the EU. The SNP will want to join the EU as soon as possible but will the EU want to open up a new hard border problem. Negotiations on the border between NI and Eire involved two parties where as the border between Scotland and England would involve three parties. [Post edited 1 Mar 2021 21:31]
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| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:40 - Mar 1 with 1329 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:35 - Mar 1 by kensalriser |
Colonial mindset - they'll (always note the 'They') never survive without us! |
Exactly.
I’d be gutted to see Scotland leave the Union but English / British chauvinism is a lubricant for it. | | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:47 - Mar 1 with 1277 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
As much as it's tempting to partake in this political thread.
I'm out. | |
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| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:56 - Mar 1 with 1284 views | Paddyhoops |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 13:48 - Mar 1 by gazza1 |
I would like to know how they intend to run their country financially if they become independent.....likewise what will happen to all the national type civic service type matters.
They need to move on just like the non brexiteers are doing in England..... |
From small conversations I've had with people at work , there seems to be a seething hatred of the Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP party.
As an Irish man I have no dog in this particular fight but there seems to be a patronising point of view that the Scots would fall off a cliff if they went it alone. Could somebody point out to me why this is the case?
They,ve got a thriving tourist industry and are an all round capable race of people so I can't see what the problem is.
Maybe the idea of an Independent Scotland and a United Ireland ( no thanks!) Is something people in England are fearful of which would basically leave the Empire with Wales, a sheep colony in the Atlantic and a rock near Spain.
If they want Independence good luck to them .Its called democracy!! | | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 16:01 - Mar 1 with 1271 views | kensalriser |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:56 - Mar 1 by Paddyhoops |
From small conversations I've had with people at work , there seems to be a seething hatred of the Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP party.
As an Irish man I have no dog in this particular fight but there seems to be a patronising point of view that the Scots would fall off a cliff if they went it alone. Could somebody point out to me why this is the case?
They,ve got a thriving tourist industry and are an all round capable race of people so I can't see what the problem is.
Maybe the idea of an Independent Scotland and a United Ireland ( no thanks!) Is something people in England are fearful of which would basically leave the Empire with Wales, a sheep colony in the Atlantic and a rock near Spain.
If they want Independence good luck to them .Its called democracy!! |
Hated for challenging English hegemony, essentially.
Scotland also has a significant financial services industry. Post Brexit, the City is now shipping jobs to Amsterdam and other EU financial centres. An existing financial services base in an independent Scotland inside the EU would be very well placed. | |
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| Salmon v Sturgeon on 16:08 - Mar 1 with 1263 views | QPR_John |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:56 - Mar 1 by Paddyhoops |
From small conversations I've had with people at work , there seems to be a seething hatred of the Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP party.
As an Irish man I have no dog in this particular fight but there seems to be a patronising point of view that the Scots would fall off a cliff if they went it alone. Could somebody point out to me why this is the case?
They,ve got a thriving tourist industry and are an all round capable race of people so I can't see what the problem is.
Maybe the idea of an Independent Scotland and a United Ireland ( no thanks!) Is something people in England are fearful of which would basically leave the Empire with Wales, a sheep colony in the Atlantic and a rock near Spain.
If they want Independence good luck to them .Its called democracy!! |
It seems to me many people are for an independent Scotland not for what it can do for Scotland but for the hope it can harm England. | | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 16:12 - Mar 1 with 1258 views | Paddyhoops |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 16:01 - Mar 1 by kensalriser |
Hated for challenging English hegemony, essentially.
Scotland also has a significant financial services industry. Post Brexit, the City is now shipping jobs to Amsterdam and other EU financial centres. An existing financial services base in an independent Scotland inside the EU would be very well placed. |
Thanks for doing the research, Kensal.
I'm sure there multiple other reasons people can put forward for an Independent Scotland and...plenty against!!
As I say I've no dog in the fight but essentially I'm not a big flag waver regardless of what country people are from!! | | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 16:14 - Mar 1 with 1254 views | MrSheen |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:56 - Mar 1 by Paddyhoops |
From small conversations I've had with people at work , there seems to be a seething hatred of the Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP party.
As an Irish man I have no dog in this particular fight but there seems to be a patronising point of view that the Scots would fall off a cliff if they went it alone. Could somebody point out to me why this is the case?
They,ve got a thriving tourist industry and are an all round capable race of people so I can't see what the problem is.
Maybe the idea of an Independent Scotland and a United Ireland ( no thanks!) Is something people in England are fearful of which would basically leave the Empire with Wales, a sheep colony in the Atlantic and a rock near Spain.
If they want Independence good luck to them .Its called democracy!! |
Here's some reading on Scotland's financial position.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publication/devolution-at-20/public-sp
https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14982
There's no reason why Scotland shouldn't be a viable independent nation, and it certainly has a clearer national history and identity than plenty of other countries. However, unless the EU bends its rules to admit them, including into the Euro, now a condition of membership, with a much higher budget deficit than their 3% rule - the sort of thing they were happy to do in the past - there could be a painful period of adjustment to taxation and spending ahead.
Though the EU will certainly be tempted to stick its thumb in Westminster's eye by admitting Scotland straight away, it would be difficult to persuade poorer countries such as Greece and Portugal that have suffered through years of imposed austerity that the Scots deserve a sweetheart deal. Cutting defence wouldn't make much of an impact, as it is only 2.1% of UK spending. The IFS says the Scottish deficit hasn't been below 7% since 2011, and it's miles off now. If they are cut off from Sterling and not allowed to join the Euro because of their deficit, they will have to offer extremely high interest rates to persuade international lenders to take a risk, which only stores up trouble for the long run.
But as everyone says, its hardly about economics now. |  | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 16:32 - Mar 1 with 1231 views | karl |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:25 - Mar 1 by gazza1 |
Because they get 'big wedge' from the Westminster government......not sure what they give to south of the border. What natural resources do they have??? |
How can you present an argument in this case if you don't know what natural resources Scotland has, that's quite unbelievable tbh.
Oil, gas, wind, tide, coal (if ever resourced again), agricultural land, fishing, tourism, huge food and drink sector are all due to natural resources to save you looking them up, even our rain is invaluable to others in UK.
It's why we're a worthwhile part of the British economy and why I want to stay part of UK since we are a partner in it, Better Together was the strapline and its true today, for all partners.
Those in the UK who spitefully down play any positive Scottish input actually do far more damage to the union than your average SNP politician, it really winds up your average Joe voter. | | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 16:41 - Mar 1 with 1218 views | gazza1 |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 16:32 - Mar 1 by karl |
How can you present an argument in this case if you don't know what natural resources Scotland has, that's quite unbelievable tbh.
Oil, gas, wind, tide, coal (if ever resourced again), agricultural land, fishing, tourism, huge food and drink sector are all due to natural resources to save you looking them up, even our rain is invaluable to others in UK.
It's why we're a worthwhile part of the British economy and why I want to stay part of UK since we are a partner in it, Better Together was the strapline and its true today, for all partners.
Those in the UK who spitefully down play any positive Scottish input actually do far more damage to the union than your average SNP politician, it really winds up your average Joe voter. |
Well lets hope the SNP get their way then if its so much better on the other side.......whilst I dont want a break up, I have had and seen enough that I now feel, let them leave and suffer accordingly. And that little horrid leader of the SNP gets it done.
Once on a lifetime vote eh. | | | |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 16:42 - Mar 1 with 1215 views | Boston |
| Salmon v Sturgeon on 15:35 - Mar 1 by kensalriser |
Colonial mindset - they'll (always note the 'They') never survive without us! |
That’s what the EU is saying alright. | |
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