| so what exactly has changed? 21:42 - May 24 with 9099 views | jacksfullaces |
appears a new young/hungry manager has been signed (in the image of 1-2 predecessors that worked (martinez/rodgers, along with 1-2 that didn't monk/clement) accepting the latter didn't commit to swansealona footie but you know what I mean
players already being signed, this lad from Liverpool, linked with 1-2 others
no statement from the board, other than some vague apology that wasn't really an apology
and jenkins, dineen et al continuing like business as usual
and not much the fans can do, with the trust in theory our only line into the decision makers, but with no line into the decision makers
and lots of anger on this board and among the fans.
anyone else just a little bit frustrated that both a club we care about, and a customer focused business has essentially been allowed to pretend nothing has really happened.
where is the accountability? where?????
cool and calm is great if it hadn't been 3/4 years of decline, it's way past a tweak here or there, that was what jenkins had promised every time after recent failures.
talk about disconnecting with the fan base ... |  | | |  |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:37 - May 25 with 2097 views | Shaky |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:36 - May 25 by jacksfullaces |
in theory then both approaches could me merged. financial short term recalibrating combined with a longer term strategic plan. |
Exactly |  |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 11:39 - May 25 with 2094 views | Jinxy |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:36 - May 25 by jacksfullaces |
in theory then both approaches could me merged. financial short term recalibrating combined with a longer term strategic plan. |
Absolutely - ensure every move is aligned with the end goal (establishing that would be a start admittedly!).
One such move would be establishing more youth players into the squad. Win win? Kids can win stuff, as Mr Hansen will testify. |  | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:40 - May 25 with 2085 views | Jacket |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:33 - May 25 by jacksfullaces |
agree with most of that, and I also hope that the Potter appointment is truly visionary.
although assuming that the pure blueprint for success from a few years back (agreed that Clement/Monk were deviations in style/strategy - was only the hungry bit I was going for there) isn't necessarily the answer either - or deciding it so quickly would be my worry. by the same people that have made a host of other poor decisions. |
I know exactly what you mean. It does seem a bit like they're trying to recreate the Martinez/Sousa/Rodgers/Laudrup era with a flick of a switch, as if it's a sure fire formula for success that can be put into practice over night, but I can't think of another way around it. I think the key is not to expect instant results and to give him time, and if it doesn't take us straight up, that may not be a bad thing. | | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:42 - May 25 with 2074 views | E20Jack |
Aligning views is the only way. It really is.
Potter looks the perfect man on paper. My fear is he will come slightly before his time and before this club is settled and marching toward one goal. It still feels all over the place not really knowing what it wants.
I truly believe, sort the Trust - put the trust back into the organisation and it will all fall into place in the areas it truly matters. |  |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 11:51 - May 25 with 2042 views | DwightYorkeSuperstar |
| so what exactly has changed? on 09:25 - May 25 by WarwickHunt |
Spot on.
Anyone who dared question the shambolic running of the club and the "jobs for the boys" culture was deemed to have "an agenda". |
Oh the word 'agenda', that brings back some memories. That was a word used heavily on here back in the day.
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| so what exactly has changed? on 11:53 - May 25 with 2036 views | Joe_bradshaw |
The club’s success or failure is down to its results on the pitch. The only realistic way the “investors “ are going to get a return is to stay/get back in the PL.
Results on the pitch are down to recruitment and management. Recruit the right players to play a defined style of play at the right price and employ a manager who blends them into a team that is greater than the sum of its parts. Sell those recruits at a profit and recruit the right players at the right price again. Continue the cycle.
Easy. Not.
We were brilliant at it for a number of years then became very poor at it very quickly. Bad recruitment of both players and managers will result in relegation very quickly for a club of our size. The Americans have some difficult decisions to make and they need to make them very quickly. Do we go back to giving the manager much more say in player recruitment? If we do we have to get the manager appointment right. Do we go for the recruitment panel and employ a DOF or a Technical Director (who is a football man) to chair the panel and work with the manager in terms of style of play and players to play it? It appears that we’re going down the Technical Director route so the appointments of the TD and the manager are absolutely crucial. At least this suggests that HJ is going to have less say on the football side of things.
Who makes the decisions on the TD and the manager? That’s the issue because any more poor recruitment decisions will be disastrous for the club. |  |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 12:03 - May 25 with 2010 views | jacksfullaces |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:42 - May 25 by E20Jack |
Aligning views is the only way. It really is.
Potter looks the perfect man on paper. My fear is he will come slightly before his time and before this club is settled and marching toward one goal. It still feels all over the place not really knowing what it wants.
I truly believe, sort the Trust - put the trust back into the organisation and it will all fall into place in the areas it truly matters. |
yep.
finding a way of doing this positively, objectively and learning from past mistakes would be great.
and accepting that there may still be different views, we are after all a broad church, may be the sticking point, when it comes to fans involvement.
presumably there isn't someone with all the answers because if there was then they would be running the show by now.
but KPIs over recent years indicate there has been a decline, so be good to know exactly what the specific strategy to arrest was going to be.
who to bring in and do this? why would I know, I don't work in sports management, but even an independent consultancy team from someone like PWC, or a more specialist firm may not be a bad start.
and then finding a way to align around the vision and the management team.
all sounds great on paper ... but looks like we are off and running again, perhaps it has all happened, albeit behind closed doors and without Trust involvement. | | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 12:05 - May 25 with 2005 views | giantstoneater |
Yes no changes and ones thing for sure the board will only listen to the fans if they come up with a money spinner that will feed the 28 suckling piglets that are currently sucking us dry. |  | | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 17:08 - May 25 with 1905 views | Shaky |
| so what exactly has changed? on 12:03 - May 25 by jacksfullaces |
yep.
finding a way of doing this positively, objectively and learning from past mistakes would be great.
and accepting that there may still be different views, we are after all a broad church, may be the sticking point, when it comes to fans involvement.
presumably there isn't someone with all the answers because if there was then they would be running the show by now.
but KPIs over recent years indicate there has been a decline, so be good to know exactly what the specific strategy to arrest was going to be.
who to bring in and do this? why would I know, I don't work in sports management, but even an independent consultancy team from someone like PWC, or a more specialist firm may not be a bad start.
and then finding a way to align around the vision and the management team.
all sounds great on paper ... but looks like we are off and running again, perhaps it has all happened, albeit behind closed doors and without Trust involvement. |
I am not sure what fancy consulting can bring to the table here, apart from some relatively straight forward financial planning for how to bring down costs.
I think JB is absolutely right; what's needed is to significantly strengthen recruitment, now that Jenkins' strategy of buying underachievers who can be turned into gems has been exposed as a such a dismal failure.
That will require investment in scouting, and a rethink of the decision making process. But it's not rocket science, and there is a fair element of luck involved.
However, the first step in turning things around is to recognise the failings of the Jenkins-centric model, and unfortunately we realistically have no idea whether Kaplan has reached that conclusion yet.
Maybe one thing you could show him is that all the big wins in the transfer market have not been generated from turnaround players but from those promoted through the ranks or established players that have performed. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 17:31 - May 25 with 1885 views | E20Jack |
| so what exactly has changed? on 17:08 - May 25 by Shaky |
I am not sure what fancy consulting can bring to the table here, apart from some relatively straight forward financial planning for how to bring down costs.
I think JB is absolutely right; what's needed is to significantly strengthen recruitment, now that Jenkins' strategy of buying underachievers who can be turned into gems has been exposed as a such a dismal failure.
That will require investment in scouting, and a rethink of the decision making process. But it's not rocket science, and there is a fair element of luck involved.
However, the first step in turning things around is to recognise the failings of the Jenkins-centric model, and unfortunately we realistically have no idea whether Kaplan has reached that conclusion yet.
Maybe one thing you could show him is that all the big wins in the transfer market have not been generated from turnaround players but from those promoted through the ranks or established players that have performed. |
Alfie Mawson could not be reached for comment. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 17:55 - May 25 with 1861 views | Kilkennyjack |
| so what exactly has changed? on 17:08 - May 25 by Shaky |
I am not sure what fancy consulting can bring to the table here, apart from some relatively straight forward financial planning for how to bring down costs.
I think JB is absolutely right; what's needed is to significantly strengthen recruitment, now that Jenkins' strategy of buying underachievers who can be turned into gems has been exposed as a such a dismal failure.
That will require investment in scouting, and a rethink of the decision making process. But it's not rocket science, and there is a fair element of luck involved.
However, the first step in turning things around is to recognise the failings of the Jenkins-centric model, and unfortunately we realistically have no idea whether Kaplan has reached that conclusion yet.
Maybe one thing you could show him is that all the big wins in the transfer market have not been generated from turnaround players but from those promoted through the ranks or established players that have performed. |
‘Promoted through the ranks’ ?
I fecking wish.
Been a long time since Ben mind, maybe young Roberts is that man.
We have not produced a first pick keeper since ... well i dont know when ... |  |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 18:00 - May 25 with 1856 views | E20Jack |
| so what exactly has changed? on 17:55 - May 25 by Kilkennyjack |
‘Promoted through the ranks’ ?
I fecking wish.
Been a long time since Ben mind, maybe young Roberts is that man.
We have not produced a first pick keeper since ... well i dont know when ... |
Indeed. Our issue has been our major signings, not our middling ones. Started with Borja and has continued up until Bony mk2 who was plagued by injury. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 18:20 - May 25 with 1839 views | Shaky |
| so what exactly has changed? on 17:55 - May 25 by Kilkennyjack |
‘Promoted through the ranks’ ?
I fecking wish.
Been a long time since Ben mind, maybe young Roberts is that man.
We have not produced a first pick keeper since ... well i dont know when ... |
. . Joe Allen, Scott Sinclair, Ash are also names I was thinking off that paid out big.
Defining it strictly as bringing players through from the yoof academy is a different matter.
The top 6 clubs spend several orders of magnitude more on their youth setups than Swansea, but talents who go on to star for the first teams are few and far between. Because it is very, very tricky identifying which players will make it. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 18:44 - May 25 with 1811 views | Shaky |
| so what exactly has changed? on 17:31 - May 25 by E20Jack |
Alfie Mawson could not be reached for comment. |
What a stupid thing to say.
He hasn't been sold for starters, and I am concerned that with his injury and the strong likelihood that big spenders will have their heads turned by the wealth of talent on show at the World Cup he is not going to move this summer. That could see his value drop further if he is languishing out of the shop window in the championship next year.
Secondly he was exactly the sort of signing that the club should be making; young and with some potential that could be developed. Sadly he is the exception rather than the norm which is more in the Tom Carroll and Leroy Fer mould. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 01:28 - May 26 with 1749 views | E20Jack |
| so what exactly has changed? on 18:44 - May 25 by Shaky |
What a stupid thing to say.
He hasn't been sold for starters, and I am concerned that with his injury and the strong likelihood that big spenders will have their heads turned by the wealth of talent on show at the World Cup he is not going to move this summer. That could see his value drop further if he is languishing out of the shop window in the championship next year.
Secondly he was exactly the sort of signing that the club should be making; young and with some potential that could be developed. Sadly he is the exception rather than the norm which is more in the Tom Carroll and Leroy Fer mould. |
What you mean is “oh yeah forgot about him”.
Whether he has been sold yet is irrelevant, to suggest so actually IS a really stupid thing to say. His value is probably £30m+ and undoubtedly will be sold for a staggering profit. It is pedantry to try and claim otherwise. He was an excellent signing and archetypical of the signing you have just described as an area of failure. If it was an easy decision to have made and so obvious according to you, then why did nobody else of any note move for him? It was scoffed at on here that he could be the replacement for Williams, easy to claim it was obvious with the benefit of hindsight. I wonder what your comments were at the time....
So now you go on to agree it was a top signing? I am unsure how you can lump Leroy Fer in there, he has been one of our better midfield players since arriving and scoring some very important goals. See also Jack Cork, VDH, Chico, Jonjo Shelvey etc etc Fer will also probably play a big part in the attempt to return. You can add Jordan Ayew to that list too. Carroll was a bit of an average signing yes, name a club in the world that doesn’t make average signings? To expect every signing (or even the majority of) to be excellent is madness and wholly unrealistic.
As I stated. Our problems in the transfer market have not been the ones you describe at all, they have proved profitable in sales/increased market value or have proved their value on the pitch helping us to a remarkable 7 seasons in the top flight.
Our problems are the big marquee signings and foreign imports that have little due dillgence like Borja, Mesa, Tabanou, Clucas and Bony (the latter two still may have a part to play). This is where we need a review. [Post edited 26 May 2018 3:35]
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| so what exactly has changed? on 12:18 - May 26 with 1684 views | Shaky |
| so what exactly has changed? on 01:28 - May 26 by E20Jack |
What you mean is “oh yeah forgot about him”.
Whether he has been sold yet is irrelevant, to suggest so actually IS a really stupid thing to say. His value is probably £30m+ and undoubtedly will be sold for a staggering profit. It is pedantry to try and claim otherwise. He was an excellent signing and archetypical of the signing you have just described as an area of failure. If it was an easy decision to have made and so obvious according to you, then why did nobody else of any note move for him? It was scoffed at on here that he could be the replacement for Williams, easy to claim it was obvious with the benefit of hindsight. I wonder what your comments were at the time....
So now you go on to agree it was a top signing? I am unsure how you can lump Leroy Fer in there, he has been one of our better midfield players since arriving and scoring some very important goals. See also Jack Cork, VDH, Chico, Jonjo Shelvey etc etc Fer will also probably play a big part in the attempt to return. You can add Jordan Ayew to that list too. Carroll was a bit of an average signing yes, name a club in the world that doesn’t make average signings? To expect every signing (or even the majority of) to be excellent is madness and wholly unrealistic.
As I stated. Our problems in the transfer market have not been the ones you describe at all, they have proved profitable in sales/increased market value or have proved their value on the pitch helping us to a remarkable 7 seasons in the top flight.
Our problems are the big marquee signings and foreign imports that have little due dillgence like Borja, Mesa, Tabanou, Clucas and Bony (the latter two still may have a part to play). This is where we need a review. [Post edited 26 May 2018 3:35]
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Oh I see, you don't see any difference between a player value established by an open market transaction involving a willing buyer and seller backed by millions of actual pounds changing hands, and one which has been pulled out of some internet poster's arse backed by 300 words of drivel?
Let me summaries for you: one is real. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 12:24 - May 26 with 1674 views | E20Jack |
| so what exactly has changed? on 12:18 - May 26 by Shaky |
Oh I see, you don't see any difference between a player value established by an open market transaction involving a willing buyer and seller backed by millions of actual pounds changing hands, and one which has been pulled out of some internet poster's arse backed by 300 words of drivel?
Let me summaries for you: one is real. |
Aye good point. Mawson isn’t worth a penny. Awful signing. Completely plucked out of the air is c.£30m. Far more realistic he will be given away on a free or Havant & Waterlooville will pick him up with a cheeky 50k bid. We have been relegated after all haven’t we, need to balance these books right?
Take your vendetta out of your considerable arse dribble for one second and you may actually type something worthwhile once every so often. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 12:44 - May 26 with 1645 views | Shaky |
| so what exactly has changed? on 12:24 - May 26 by E20Jack |
Aye good point. Mawson isn’t worth a penny. Awful signing. Completely plucked out of the air is c.£30m. Far more realistic he will be given away on a free or Havant & Waterlooville will pick him up with a cheeky 50k bid. We have been relegated after all haven’t we, need to balance these books right?
Take your vendetta out of your considerable arse dribble for one second and you may actually type something worthwhile once every so often. |
I'm old enough to remember a couple of months ago you insisted Mawson was worth £45-60 million.
All hot air, all the time. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 12:48 - May 26 with 1638 views | Kilkennyjack |
| so what exactly has changed? on 18:20 - May 25 by Shaky |
. . Joe Allen, Scott Sinclair, Ash are also names I was thinking off that paid out big.
Defining it strictly as bringing players through from the yoof academy is a different matter.
The top 6 clubs spend several orders of magnitude more on their youth setups than Swansea, but talents who go on to star for the first teams are few and far between. Because it is very, very tricky identifying which players will make it. |
Joe was produced way before we spent big on the Academy.
Back in early 2007.
Ash and Sinclair can’t be described as ‘coming through the ranks’.
Produced by other clubs.
Maybe thats what we have to do ?
Well ...Man Utd produced Welbeck, Rashford, McTominay, and Lingard ? | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 12:48 - May 26 with 1637 views | E20Jack |
| so what exactly has changed? on 12:44 - May 26 by Shaky |
I'm old enough to remember a couple of months ago you insisted Mawson was worth £45-60 million.
All hot air, all the time. |
You what? Is this another of your tall tales you wheel out every now and again when you have dug yourself into a massive hole with your pedantic nonsense? I would love to see that quote in context (if it exists) as I don’t ever remember saying that, ever.
£40m is the current figure in the press. It is likely to be around the £30m mark.
You clearly think he is worth less than the £5m paid.
Let’s see who is closest shall we Shakes?
*Shaky is now furiously using the search engine, each passing minute realising he has imagined it again and turning his thoughts to how to cover his tracks and face the music. Probably issuing his tried and tested “I can’t be bothered to find it now” line”. [Post edited 26 May 2018 13:00]
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| so what exactly has changed? on 13:10 - May 26 with 1615 views | Shaky |
| so what exactly has changed? on 12:48 - May 26 by Kilkennyjack |
Joe was produced way before we spent big on the Academy.
Back in early 2007.
Ash and Sinclair can’t be described as ‘coming through the ranks’.
Produced by other clubs.
Maybe thats what we have to do ?
Well ...Man Utd produced Welbeck, Rashford, McTominay, and Lingard ? |
You are right that there are a few that have come through at Man U. Also one or two at Liverpool currently, but generally speaking over say the last 10 years the return from their academy set ups has been appalling.
When was the last Beckham or Gerrard? They are few and far between because it is very, very difficult.
Other than that you appear to have missed my prior explanation of what I meant by players coming through, in particular in contrast to Jenkin's past strategy to pick up underachieving players and turn them into gold.
And the other thing worth mentioning about recruitment in general is that this strategy has been hugely risky. Given the financial weakness, the club has been unable to afford to get rid of recruitment mistakes, because it could not afford the financial hit of writing them off.
After a couple of years, the cumulative effect is you are left with a very low quality squad. And claims that it is all the fault of a quickly growing list of sacked managers wearing increasingly thin. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 13:11 - May 26 with 1610 views | E20Jack |
As I thought  | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 13:14 - May 26 with 1605 views | Shaky |
| so what exactly has changed? on 13:11 - May 26 by E20Jack |
As I thought |
What did you think, Dim?
That I would entertain you claim I thought Mawson was worth £5 million and argue the toss about it?
Nah. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 13:17 - May 26 with 1598 views | E20Jack |
| so what exactly has changed? on 13:14 - May 26 by Shaky |
What did you think, Dim?
That I would entertain you claim I thought Mawson was worth £5 million and argue the toss about it?
Nah. |
That you wouldn’t substantiate your latest wild accusation Shakes.
I was correct on that, of course.
So your point (if you can call it that) boils down to you throwing a hissy fit because I reminded you that Mawson was signed for £5m and now worth a small fortune while you trying to cover that by suggesting he isn’t. Well come on then, stick a value in him. Let’s see who’s closest.
I have said £30m. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 13:19 - May 26 with 1593 views | Whiterockin |
| so what exactly has changed? on 13:17 - May 26 by E20Jack |
That you wouldn’t substantiate your latest wild accusation Shakes.
I was correct on that, of course.
So your point (if you can call it that) boils down to you throwing a hissy fit because I reminded you that Mawson was signed for £5m and now worth a small fortune while you trying to cover that by suggesting he isn’t. Well come on then, stick a value in him. Let’s see who’s closest.
I have said £30m. |
Mawson is worth what it says in his release clause. |  | | |
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