| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea 15:37 - Apr 7 with 25895 views | Dyfnant |
Title says it all. |  |
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 13:26 - Apr 9 with 1349 views | E20Jack |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 13:19 - Apr 9 by 34dfgdf54 |
I'm on about Andre, not Jordan. I wouldn't say Andre has been in excellent form.
Tammy can't play the lone role up front, it's not his game, not his fault it's more down to poor scouting than anything else. |
My fault, thought you were talking about Jordan.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one then. Tammy is capable of playing on his own or as a duo or part of a 3 pronged attack (if through thr middle). He would be better as a flat 2 up top currently though, rather than the striker and wide forward we have played which is clearly confusing some, and a reson as to why a wide player was preferred.
Tammy is a fox in the box that also likes to run in behind defences. You can see from his positioning and how advanced he is in that area for a 20 year old, all of his goals from the last 2 seasons are almost identical in position in the box. He has a natural goalscorers instinct. Added to that he has pace and good footwork.
Due to his age he still has a slight frame which will clearly be worked on over the next few years as he fully physically develops and fills out. Which will add another dimension to his game and will be a much better lone striker. [Post edited 9 Apr 2018 13:27]
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 13:36 - Apr 9 with 1331 views | jack247 |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 12:46 - Apr 9 by E20Jack |
That is not a point though is it? Firstly it is not an accurate one, Dyer was played as a forward. And secondly it is one that you have admitted yourself means nothing as everybody on this planet can see that Abraham is a better striker than Dyer. So your point seemingly boils down to you claiming that Carvalhal is wrong if he thinks Abraham is a worse striker than Dyer yes? So how is that relevant to this debate in any sense?
No, it is when. If he gets an injury then yes we can say "if", but assuming nothing extraordinary or external happens, its when - that much is obvious. You can disagree of course, the bet offer is open to all to back their convictions, you included. I dont think Borja had any real potential did he? What have you seen in Borja to assume he has potential to be anything other than what he has shown?
Football fees are amortised across the board, it doesnt matter of we physically had it in the summer. It is proportionate. |
Ok, let’s simplify it further. If Bony was fit, he’d have been in the team. If we had a £20m striker, he’d have been in the team as well. We wouldn’t have played a system that used a converted midfielder and a winger who doesn’t really score or create as our forward line.
Not doubting his potential at all, but at the moment he’s a goal poacher who doesn’t poach many goals. If he develops the physical side of his game, he may well fulfill his potential. That won’t help us though. |  | | |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 13:41 - Apr 9 with 1320 views | jack247 |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 13:26 - Apr 9 by E20Jack |
My fault, thought you were talking about Jordan.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one then. Tammy is capable of playing on his own or as a duo or part of a 3 pronged attack (if through thr middle). He would be better as a flat 2 up top currently though, rather than the striker and wide forward we have played which is clearly confusing some, and a reson as to why a wide player was preferred.
Tammy is a fox in the box that also likes to run in behind defences. You can see from his positioning and how advanced he is in that area for a 20 year old, all of his goals from the last 2 seasons are almost identical in position in the box. He has a natural goalscorers instinct. Added to that he has pace and good footwork.
Due to his age he still has a slight frame which will clearly be worked on over the next few years as he fully physically develops and fills out. Which will add another dimension to his game and will be a much better lone striker. [Post edited 9 Apr 2018 13:27]
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He’s not capable of playing up front on his own. That’s the problem. I agree he’d be great in a strike partnership sharing the physical burden, but that risks getting overrun in midfield. | | | |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 13:47 - Apr 9 with 1307 views | E20Jack |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 13:36 - Apr 9 by jack247 |
Ok, let’s simplify it further. If Bony was fit, he’d have been in the team. If we had a £20m striker, he’d have been in the team as well. We wouldn’t have played a system that used a converted midfielder and a winger who doesn’t really score or create as our forward line.
Not doubting his potential at all, but at the moment he’s a goal poacher who doesn’t poach many goals. If he develops the physical side of his game, he may well fulfill his potential. That won’t help us though. |
Thats because Bony is a fantastic striker, possibly the greatest striker in our modern history. not because Tammy is not good I don't understand the points you are trying to make.
Nobody scores many goals in this side, it is a side that lacks creativity. Goal poschers dont score goals when there is very little opportunity to posch goals. You mention Solskjaer earlier who was an expert goal poacher, I doubt he would be lighting up this side even in his pomp. Thats not any reflection on him as a player though.
At the end of the day he is scoring a very healthy % of our goals, it would be ludicrous to expect a team that creates so little to have a player that scores every game, just doesn't happen. It's is wholly unrealistic.
Whatever you believe his potential is: a) his journey to reaching that potential absolutely has helped us if his goals contributed to us staying in the league, which they look odds on to do, and b) would absolutely help us if we did sign him in last summer as this discussion seems to partly be about. (Not that Chelsea would be stupid enough to sell him for £20m of course). | |
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 13:48 - Apr 9 with 1303 views | E20Jack |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 13:41 - Apr 9 by jack247 |
He’s not capable of playing up front on his own. That’s the problem. I agree he’d be great in a strike partnership sharing the physical burden, but that risks getting overrun in midfield. |
He played on his own up front a few days ago and scored our only goal to allow us an extra point towards safety. To say he is incapable of doing what has produced 20% of our league goals to get us to 15th place in the table is, well, frankly untrue, | |
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:00 - Apr 9 with 1290 views | LeonWasGod |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 13:48 - Apr 9 by E20Jack |
He played on his own up front a few days ago and scored our only goal to allow us an extra point towards safety. To say he is incapable of doing what has produced 20% of our league goals to get us to 15th place in the table is, well, frankly untrue, |
Did you actually watch him? I was pleased as punch that he got his goal, of course, but he spent the rest of the afternoon bouncing off Ahmed Hegazi. As he does every other CB he faces. He's nowhere near strong enough yet. It'll probably come though, but too late for us.
You're defence of him is admirable and I'll support him every time he pulls on the shirt, but his 5 PL goals and allround performances aren't supporting your case that he's currently a good option I that position. He's got 20% of our PL goals because we've scored so few goals. It's circular logic.
BUT. He's hell of a lot better than some of our other back-up strikers we've had in this league. Nice footwork and yes he has got a natural goal-scorers instinct. Just think you're over-playing your case to score a point. |  | | |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:02 - Apr 9 with 1289 views | jack247 |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 13:47 - Apr 9 by E20Jack |
Thats because Bony is a fantastic striker, possibly the greatest striker in our modern history. not because Tammy is not good I don't understand the points you are trying to make.
Nobody scores many goals in this side, it is a side that lacks creativity. Goal poschers dont score goals when there is very little opportunity to posch goals. You mention Solskjaer earlier who was an expert goal poacher, I doubt he would be lighting up this side even in his pomp. Thats not any reflection on him as a player though.
At the end of the day he is scoring a very healthy % of our goals, it would be ludicrous to expect a team that creates so little to have a player that scores every game, just doesn't happen. It's is wholly unrealistic.
Whatever you believe his potential is: a) his journey to reaching that potential absolutely has helped us if his goals contributed to us staying in the league, which they look odds on to do, and b) would absolutely help us if we did sign him in last summer as this discussion seems to partly be about. (Not that Chelsea would be stupid enough to sell him for £20m of course). |
Your first paragraph is pretty accurate. If we had a good striker, we’d find a system that plays to his strengths, rather than leave him on the bench. Tammy is adequate. Dyer and Jordan/Andre and Jordan seem better options.
Solskjaer wouldn’t have got as many goals as he did for Man United in this side. It’s a fair bet he’d have got more than 5 though. He was that good a goal poacher, we may have set up to accommodate him.
You keep mentioning percentages. In reality, he’s got 3 more league goals than Mawson. | | | |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:03 - Apr 9 with 1288 views | jack247 |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 13:48 - Apr 9 by E20Jack |
He played on his own up front a few days ago and scored our only goal to allow us an extra point towards safety. To say he is incapable of doing what has produced 20% of our league goals to get us to 15th place in the table is, well, frankly untrue, |
We played 352 on the weekend. Andre isn’t a striker, but that’s not the same as being a lone front man | | | |
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:09 - Apr 9 with 1282 views | jack247 |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:00 - Apr 9 by LeonWasGod |
Did you actually watch him? I was pleased as punch that he got his goal, of course, but he spent the rest of the afternoon bouncing off Ahmed Hegazi. As he does every other CB he faces. He's nowhere near strong enough yet. It'll probably come though, but too late for us.
You're defence of him is admirable and I'll support him every time he pulls on the shirt, but his 5 PL goals and allround performances aren't supporting your case that he's currently a good option I that position. He's got 20% of our PL goals because we've scored so few goals. It's circular logic.
BUT. He's hell of a lot better than some of our other back-up strikers we've had in this league. Nice footwork and yes he has got a natural goal-scorers instinct. Just think you're over-playing your case to score a point. |
Final paragraph spot on. It would be ridiculous to lump him in with the likes of N’Gog, Schecter and Vasquez. I don’t think he’s up to being first choice at the moment, but he’s a big step up from previous back ups | | | |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:10 - Apr 9 with 1279 views | E20Jack |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:03 - Apr 9 by jack247 |
We played 352 on the weekend. Andre isn’t a striker, but that’s not the same as being a lone front man |
He didnt play as a striker. You cam throw numbers out, but he still wasnt a striker.mwe play a striker and a wide forward. | |
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:13 - Apr 9 with 1271 views | E20Jack |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:02 - Apr 9 by jack247 |
Your first paragraph is pretty accurate. If we had a good striker, we’d find a system that plays to his strengths, rather than leave him on the bench. Tammy is adequate. Dyer and Jordan/Andre and Jordan seem better options.
Solskjaer wouldn’t have got as many goals as he did for Man United in this side. It’s a fair bet he’d have got more than 5 though. He was that good a goal poacher, we may have set up to accommodate him.
You keep mentioning percentages. In reality, he’s got 3 more league goals than Mawson. |
And Jordan Ayew has 4 more than Mawson. | |
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:18 - Apr 9 with 1263 views | E20Jack |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:00 - Apr 9 by LeonWasGod |
Did you actually watch him? I was pleased as punch that he got his goal, of course, but he spent the rest of the afternoon bouncing off Ahmed Hegazi. As he does every other CB he faces. He's nowhere near strong enough yet. It'll probably come though, but too late for us.
You're defence of him is admirable and I'll support him every time he pulls on the shirt, but his 5 PL goals and allround performances aren't supporting your case that he's currently a good option I that position. He's got 20% of our PL goals because we've scored so few goals. It's circular logic.
BUT. He's hell of a lot better than some of our other back-up strikers we've had in this league. Nice footwork and yes he has got a natural goal-scorers instinct. Just think you're over-playing your case to score a point. |
I did, yes. The physical side of his game is not his strong point, but he also burst clear of the defence very early after going shoulder to shoulder with a center back too, he is not the pushover you make him out to be. That side of his game will certainly come, it wont be too late for us as he would probably already have scored enough to contribute to our survival season.
His 5 PL goals in 15 starts is a better ratio than any other player we have. Of course the stats back up my claim he is a good option, as does our current league position when we probably have the worst side we have had since we entered the league.
I am not over playing anything, my point was very simple indeed. And that was to refute the claim he is more Colchester than Chelsea, not a PL player, A sunday league player at best etc. [Post edited 9 Apr 2018 14:21]
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:19 - Apr 9 with 1262 views | jack247 |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:13 - Apr 9 by E20Jack |
And Jordan Ayew has 4 more than Mawson. |
And I’m not on here making a big fuss over what percentage of our league goals Jordan Ayew has scored. | | | |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:20 - Apr 9 with 1255 views | E20Jack |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:19 - Apr 9 by jack247 |
And I’m not on here making a big fuss over what percentage of our league goals Jordan Ayew has scored. |
Because he is not getting abuse anymore after people realised he was a cracking player. I also had to defend him in a similar manner until people saw sense. | |
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:23 - Apr 9 with 1251 views | jack247 |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:10 - Apr 9 by E20Jack |
He didnt play as a striker. You cam throw numbers out, but he still wasnt a striker.mwe play a striker and a wide forward. |
352 is a formation, it’s not throwing numbers out.
I said it’s not the same as playing Tammy as a lone striker. He got a lot more support from Ayew than a lone striker in say a 451 would get. As Jordan does alongside Andre or Dyer. | | | |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:25 - Apr 9 with 1248 views | jack247 |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:20 - Apr 9 by E20Jack |
Because he is not getting abuse anymore after people realised he was a cracking player. I also had to defend him in a similar manner until people saw sense. |
More because I see 5 or 6 goals as 5 or 6 goals. Not 20% of the teams total. | | | |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:30 - Apr 9 with 1238 views | Loyal |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:19 - Apr 9 by jack247 |
And I’m not on here making a big fuss over what percentage of our league goals Jordan Ayew has scored. |
Lets hope the old Jordan Ayew doesn't return.
He must be desperate to get stuck in to Everton.
I'm desperate to see him again in our clubs shirt. |  |
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:37 - Apr 9 with 1224 views | jack247 |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:30 - Apr 9 by Loyal |
Lets hope the old Jordan Ayew doesn't return.
He must be desperate to get stuck in to Everton.
I'm desperate to see him again in our clubs shirt. |
I’m fairly confident for Saturday. He’s been given more freedom and responsibility (if that makes sense) under Carlos.
I’m sure we’ll be more adventurous at home. A win here more or less keeps us up IMO | | | |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:40 - Apr 9 with 1219 views | E20Jack |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:23 - Apr 9 by jack247 |
352 is a formation, it’s not throwing numbers out.
I said it’s not the same as playing Tammy as a lone striker. He got a lot more support from Ayew than a lone striker in say a 451 would get. As Jordan does alongside Andre or Dyer. |
It is a rigid written formation that does not necessarily represent what is on the pitch - which it doesn't. Abraham was playing the lone striker role as he was the only olayer with the striker role in our starting 11. | |
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:44 - Apr 9 with 1214 views | E20Jack |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:25 - Apr 9 by jack247 |
More because I see 5 or 6 goals as 5 or 6 goals. Not 20% of the teams total. |
Exactly, there is where you are going wrong, you are not looking in context.
You said yourself Solskjaer would not have scored as many as he did for Man Utd if he played for us, well if we were just looking at his tally as a stand alone figure without cintext then that would suggest he has become a worse goalscorer, which of course he wouldnt, he would be playing in a side that creates less.
It would be unrealistic to think Tammy would have scored 15 league goals by now as it would represent an unnatural amount of our goals. It is fair to think a striker will score a % of goals in accordance to the attacking and creative prowess of that particular side. | |
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:47 - Apr 9 with 1211 views | jack247 |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:40 - Apr 9 by E20Jack |
It is a rigid written formation that does not necessarily represent what is on the pitch - which it doesn't. Abraham was playing the lone striker role as he was the only olayer with the striker role in our starting 11. |
No. Nearly, but no.
Andre had a looser roaming forward role, which allowed him to drift out wide, play as an attacking midfielder and support Tammy. He’s not up front all the time, but Tammy isn’t isolated like a lone striker either.
We tried that early on under Clement and it didn’t work. | | | |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:50 - Apr 9 with 1206 views | E20Jack |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:47 - Apr 9 by jack247 |
No. Nearly, but no.
Andre had a looser roaming forward role, which allowed him to drift out wide, play as an attacking midfielder and support Tammy. He’s not up front all the time, but Tammy isn’t isolated like a lone striker either.
We tried that early on under Clement and it didn’t work. |
Not nearly, it was spot on.
Tammy was a line striker, he had attacking support yes, as dis Bony when he played on his own as the wingers condensed into forwards. If you are talking about support then there are very few, if any instances if line strikers in world football. | |
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:54 - Apr 9 with 1200 views | jack247 |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:44 - Apr 9 by E20Jack |
Exactly, there is where you are going wrong, you are not looking in context.
You said yourself Solskjaer would not have scored as many as he did for Man Utd if he played for us, well if we were just looking at his tally as a stand alone figure without cintext then that would suggest he has become a worse goalscorer, which of course he wouldnt, he would be playing in a side that creates less.
It would be unrealistic to think Tammy would have scored 15 league goals by now as it would represent an unnatural amount of our goals. It is fair to think a striker will score a % of goals in accordance to the attacking and creative prowess of that particular side. |
You’re just looking at goals. 5 would be reasonable enough if he was a Heskey or even a Jordan, doing a lot more than just finish chances.
He’s not though. Talented finisher that he undoubtedly is, he doesn’t do very much else for the team. That’s quite likely a part of why 5 goals is such a high percentage of our overall tally. | | | |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:59 - Apr 9 with 1193 views | E20Jack |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:54 - Apr 9 by jack247 |
You’re just looking at goals. 5 would be reasonable enough if he was a Heskey or even a Jordan, doing a lot more than just finish chances.
He’s not though. Talented finisher that he undoubtedly is, he doesn’t do very much else for the team. That’s quite likely a part of why 5 goals is such a high percentage of our overall tally. |
I am looking at contribution, for a striker in a side that creates little from midfield then that is largely going to be most useful in goals. He has 20% of ours and is the club top scorer.
I am pretty sure you cannot blame a striker that has started 15 games for our complete lack of creativity. Thats ludicrous. | |
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| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 15:19 - Apr 9 with 1170 views | jack247 |
| Abraham, more Colchester than Chelsea on 14:59 - Apr 9 by E20Jack |
I am looking at contribution, for a striker in a side that creates little from midfield then that is largely going to be most useful in goals. He has 20% of ours and is the club top scorer.
I am pretty sure you cannot blame a striker that has started 15 games for our complete lack of creativity. Thats ludicrous. |
If we had a striker that could hold the ball up then we would create a lot more from midfield.
A contribution of 5 league goals, a couple of clever assists in fairness but very little else is what it is. If he was scoring or contributing more, he’d have started more games
And stop making things up. I didn’t blame him for our complete lack of creativity. He’s played his part in that, but he’s far from the only reason we don’t create or score much. | | | |
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