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A big fire in a tower block in Latimer Road just been reported on 5live.Eyewitness says there are people trapped on the upper floors. I hope everyone gets out safely.
This is political and it's absurd to pretend that it isn't. And it does those people who have died so horrifically and those who have lost their homes so tragically no favours to pretend that it isn't and that it doesn't raise huge issues about what is wrong at the heart of our society.
So this fire wouldnt have happened if labour was in power..?
I find this kind of comment trite. It demeans the issues. This wouldn't have happened if the greedy self-serving RBK&C and the company that oversaw the work had done their job properly, caring for all the people in their borough, and it wouldn't have happened if the most vile kind of neo-liberal capitalism hadn't been tacitly or overtly promoted by the Tories and New Labour and all that goes with that.
This is about a systemic failure in our society. And as I've said before, it is is right to point that out. I find this kind of point-scoring comment - it wouldn't have happened if Labour was in power - vulgar, especially in the context of this tragedy. Some really unpleasant stuff coming out from the right wing on here.
Need to wait until end of public enquiry and then hopefully it will become clear exactly why and what happened. Then (criminal) prosecutions should follow if there has been any wrong doing by anyone. I do think that May has to go. We cannot have a leader who is firstly seemingly unable to interact with people on a personal level and secondly does not front up to situations. Having said that I also don't like the photo opportunities of other politicians, I think that's wrong too. Speak to people behind closed doors and tell press to f.uck off.
I find this kind of comment trite. It demeans the issues. This wouldn't have happened if the greedy self-serving RBK&C and the company that oversaw the work had done their job properly, caring for all the people in their borough, and it wouldn't have happened if the most vile kind of neo-liberal capitalism hadn't been tacitly or overtly promoted by the Tories and New Labour and all that goes with that.
This is about a systemic failure in our society. And as I've said before, it is is right to point that out. I find this kind of point-scoring comment - it wouldn't have happened if Labour was in power - vulgar, especially in the context of this tragedy. Some really unpleasant stuff coming out from the right wing on here.
Do me a favour...
Ive never once said this isnt political and i dont think anyone else has. Ive tried talking about the actual nuts and bolts of what caused the fire and kept out of the politics. Ive seen the "Torys out" signs on the news. There's definitely people using this for their own political agenda, rightly or wrongly. I completly agree with you that this happened because of a systematic failure in society. For the record ive never once voted Tory or Labour . Call my comment trite if you like and down arrow me you big ninny but it was more a rhetorical question then some point scoring exercise for the right.
I find this kind of comment trite. It demeans the issues. This wouldn't have happened if the greedy self-serving RBK&C and the company that oversaw the work had done their job properly, caring for all the people in their borough, and it wouldn't have happened if the most vile kind of neo-liberal capitalism hadn't been tacitly or overtly promoted by the Tories and New Labour and all that goes with that.
This is about a systemic failure in our society. And as I've said before, it is is right to point that out. I find this kind of point-scoring comment - it wouldn't have happened if Labour was in power - vulgar, especially in the context of this tragedy. Some really unpleasant stuff coming out from the right wing on here.
I think it is a perfectly reasonable question, and goes to the heart of some the current debates in this country.
You say two slightly conflicting things 1. It's due to neoliberalism (seeming to imply that it's due to a particular form of capitalism) 2. It's a systematic failure in our society (seeming to imply that it's due to capitalism itself)
The assumption behind argument 1 is that capitalism is a successful system, it's just that its fruits have been very unevenly distributed. The vast and growing inequalities are therefore a lifestyle choice or an evil plot on the part of the elite.
The assumption behind argument 2 is that capitalism is in deep crisis and will continue to hack away at the state that it can no longer afford (the only exception being the large payments to its middle class clientele who run these arm's length housing bodies, free schools, charities etc). The vast and growing inequalities are therefore an expression of the decaying system.
I do think in the current Corbyn euphoria that people have lost sight of the fact that Labour is a pro-capitalist party.
While it's true that Tory apologists will point to Labour's complicity in this, that or the other scheme of the elite to obscure the fact that the Tories are the preferred and natural party of the ruling class, I don't think Punter falls into that category as he made it clear he didn't vote in the election.
You are not wrong Steve. I lived in Silchester Rd directly below you on the Silchester Estate, just the other side of the arches from the Silchester Baths which became the plastic football pitch. We had elderly family friends who lived on the 12th floor and those lifts used to be out of service about 50% of the time it seemed.
Chris.
I know exactly where you mean. This seems to be turning into a Left/Right debate on here, so I'm just going to call it how I see it.
Anyone who had been in any of those Flats on the West facing side of the Tower, (where most of the weather systems approach) will know that it was like living in a wind tunnel.
Fire breaks between floors?..........I'm not sure. The place was just over three years old, yet the army of Cockroaches had little problem travelling between the Ground and 24th Floor. In the time I was there, the problem with the Cockroaches was never resolved.
The single Staircase was encased within the building. Made from Concrete, but...... It wasn't much wider than a domestic staircase. So I'm not surprised people were falling over each other trying to escape.
The Four Tower Blocks surrounding Grenfell Tower were built in the 60's, Grenfell Tower was built in the 70's. Yet anyone who has been inside any of the four blocks and Grnfell Tower, will know that the 60's built blocks were better built.
The Cladding may well have been responsible for the speed of the exterior fire, and may well have been the straw that broke the Camel's back, but..... If the Windows hadn't been changed since I was there, then once the fire got inside, the wind would have done the rest.
The original Plans for the Tower should be looked at long and hard. I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but.... The fact is..
That Tower was 'Gerry built.'
Chris, you've been inside it. Tell me if I'm wrong.
Ive never once said this isnt political and i dont think anyone else has. Ive tried talking about the actual nuts and bolts of what caused the fire and kept out of the politics. Ive seen the "Torys out" signs on the news. There's definitely people using this for their own political agenda, rightly or wrongly. I completly agree with you that this happened because of a systematic failure in society. For the record ive never once voted Tory or Labour . Call my comment trite if you like and down arrow me you big ninny but it was more a rhetorical question then some point scoring exercise for the right.
[Post edited 17 Jun 2017 10:14]
Well it didn't come across as 'more a rhetorical question' at all. Perhaps you should be more careful about how you express yourself as nuances are hard to read in text.
Well it didn't come across as 'more a rhetorical question' at all. Perhaps you should be more careful about how you express yourself as nuances are hard to read in text.
Thanks for calling me a big ninny.
Your welcome.
"ninny - Quite possibly the coolest insult ever. Short for nincompoop, it was used often in Victorian Europe and early North America. Insult of choice for monocole-wearing gentry, and anyone with a bit of class. My, what a ninny! *monocle* "
K&C saying maybe 2 years before they can rehouse everyone
Thankfully my mate was rehoused within 48 hours. But then he's on the Grenfell Action Group and is a thorn in the side of the council housing committee. Some will have to for longer I guess. He now lives on Marloes Rd just off High Street Kensington, oh yah !!
I think it is a perfectly reasonable question, and goes to the heart of some the current debates in this country.
You say two slightly conflicting things 1. It's due to neoliberalism (seeming to imply that it's due to a particular form of capitalism) 2. It's a systematic failure in our society (seeming to imply that it's due to capitalism itself)
The assumption behind argument 1 is that capitalism is a successful system, it's just that its fruits have been very unevenly distributed. The vast and growing inequalities are therefore a lifestyle choice or an evil plot on the part of the elite.
The assumption behind argument 2 is that capitalism is in deep crisis and will continue to hack away at the state that it can no longer afford (the only exception being the large payments to its middle class clientele who run these arm's length housing bodies, free schools, charities etc). The vast and growing inequalities are therefore an expression of the decaying system.
I do think in the current Corbyn euphoria that people have lost sight of the fact that Labour is a pro-capitalist party.
While it's true that Tory apologists will point to Labour's complicity in this, that or the other scheme of the elite to obscure the fact that the Tories are the preferred and natural party of the ruling class, I don't think Punter falls into that category as he made it clear he didn't vote in the election.
Don't totally agree with this bit: "While it's true that Tory apologists will point to Labour's complicity in this, that or the other scheme of the elite to obscure the fact that the Tories are the preferred and natural party of the ruling class, I don't think Punter falls into that category as he made it clear he didn't vote in the election."
Not having a go at the poster individually, but as a general principle if you have a party or system in power and you don't vote, you're not being apolitical, you're saying you're fine with how things are. I don't think it's possible to be apolitical at a time like this, or in a situation like this.
Instant, panicky demands not to "politicise" what has happened are very obviously the most cynical and political response of all. Poor people, working class people, have died because, at a bare minimum of responsibility, the proper defences for their safety weren't put in place by individuals and companies working under a very particular kind of system. Their repeated pleas for help BEFORE the fire were ignored, because they weren't wealthy or important enough to bother taking any notice of. And no, this hasn't happened in One Hyde Park or the Shard.
That's political from the start, and making it your priority to claim otherwise "not even halfway through removing the bodies" says it all.
We can see you. We can see what you are. (Not you Tactical, who is a gent...)
People who genuinely want to help the local community - working class west Londoners — or even just check with them about who and what THEY see as responsible are more than welcome to go down to W11 and do so. It isn't hard to find them, they're a 10 minute walk from where we go and watch the football every fortnight.
Only took her 3 days. Following the stick she took for turning up for 15 minutes and speaking to heroic firemen, she hurries back the following day to meet the victims. THEN mentions £5m.
If this was in Asia the money would've been promised within minutes.
Let Corbyn take over, f*** up the economy for 4 years revert back to normal. Bored of the anti Tory crap now. This country is heading for economic melt down.
Not even going to vote next time round.
It's anti Tory crap because the Tories are in power. Not sure if you've been awake these past 7 years. The Tories closed 27 fire stations since coming to power.
If Labour were in power they'd get it more in the neck as 95% of the press back the CONservatives. I actually blame both parties as they've had the power these last 40 years.
Just had a bittersweet moment thinking about coming out of Grove tube with Dub Vendor bang next door and hearing this even as you turned down Lancaster Road.
I think it is a perfectly reasonable question, and goes to the heart of some the current debates in this country.
You say two slightly conflicting things 1. It's due to neoliberalism (seeming to imply that it's due to a particular form of capitalism) 2. It's a systematic failure in our society (seeming to imply that it's due to capitalism itself)
The assumption behind argument 1 is that capitalism is a successful system, it's just that its fruits have been very unevenly distributed. The vast and growing inequalities are therefore a lifestyle choice or an evil plot on the part of the elite.
The assumption behind argument 2 is that capitalism is in deep crisis and will continue to hack away at the state that it can no longer afford (the only exception being the large payments to its middle class clientele who run these arm's length housing bodies, free schools, charities etc). The vast and growing inequalities are therefore an expression of the decaying system.
I do think in the current Corbyn euphoria that people have lost sight of the fact that Labour is a pro-capitalist party.
While it's true that Tory apologists will point to Labour's complicity in this, that or the other scheme of the elite to obscure the fact that the Tories are the preferred and natural party of the ruling class, I don't think Punter falls into that category as he made it clear he didn't vote in the election.
You've got mired in semantics and you've lost me with your reasoning. I didn't say anything like how you're interpreting it.
There is no contradiction in the statement that the problems are systemic and that years of promoting neo-liberal capitalism are equally culpable in creating a society where the poor are demonised and the gap between rich and poor in our society is so vast it is revolting. Both are true - IMO.
It's only a 'perfectly reasonable question' if it is presented as such - i.e "would things have been different under a Labour government?" - but it wasn't.
Mussolini allegedly said "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power". We have seen how corporate power has grown under successive governments in this country and abroad, not least in the media and how they dominate the cultural narrative. As I said earlier, I think the tide is turning against this among ordinary people who are justifiably and righteously angry about all of is, not just the horrors of Grenfell, but the whole goddamn situation we find ourselves in in 2017.
Is Labour pro-capitalist under Corbyn? I don't think so. It certainly was previously, under Blair and Brown, egregiously so. You may be of the Thatcher school of thought - TINA - there is no alternative (to capitalism) - I don't know. but there certainly are alternatives, and perhaps we should be exploring them. I think Yuval Noah Harari's game-changing book Sapiens is excellent on this. One thing he considers at is how racism is generally considered unacceptable these days, but having a huge divide between rich and poor, which is tacitly supported by most, is not. Maybe it's time we reconsidered the neo-liberal justification that 'the poor will always be with us.'
Don't totally agree with this bit: "While it's true that Tory apologists will point to Labour's complicity in this, that or the other scheme of the elite to obscure the fact that the Tories are the preferred and natural party of the ruling class, I don't think Punter falls into that category as he made it clear he didn't vote in the election."
Not having a go at the poster individually, but as a general principle if you have a party or system in power and you don't vote, you're not being apolitical, you're saying you're fine with how things are. I don't think it's possible to be apolitical at a time like this, or in a situation like this.
Instant, panicky demands not to "politicise" what has happened are very obviously the most cynical and political response of all. Poor people, working class people, have died because, at a bare minimum of responsibility, the proper defences for their safety weren't put in place by individuals and companies working under a very particular kind of system. Their repeated pleas for help BEFORE the fire were ignored, because they weren't wealthy or important enough to bother taking any notice of. And no, this hasn't happened in One Hyde Park or the Shard.
That's political from the start, and making it your priority to claim otherwise "not even halfway through removing the bodies" says it all.
We can see you. We can see what you are. (Not you Tactical, who is a gent...)
People who genuinely want to help the local community - working class west Londoners — or even just check with them about who and what THEY see as responsible are more than welcome to go down to W11 and do so. It isn't hard to find them, they're a 10 minute walk from where we go and watch the football every fortnight.
[Post edited 17 Jun 2017 10:34]
"We can see you. We can see what you are" ..... ? WTF does that mean?
I know exactly where you mean. This seems to be turning into a Left/Right debate on here, so I'm just going to call it how I see it.
Anyone who had been in any of those Flats on the West facing side of the Tower, (where most of the weather systems approach) will know that it was like living in a wind tunnel.
Fire breaks between floors?..........I'm not sure. The place was just over three years old, yet the army of Cockroaches had little problem travelling between the Ground and 24th Floor. In the time I was there, the problem with the Cockroaches was never resolved.
The single Staircase was encased within the building. Made from Concrete, but...... It wasn't much wider than a domestic staircase. So I'm not surprised people were falling over each other trying to escape.
The Four Tower Blocks surrounding Grenfell Tower were built in the 60's, Grenfell Tower was built in the 70's. Yet anyone who has been inside any of the four blocks and Grnfell Tower, will know that the 60's built blocks were better built.
The Cladding may well have been responsible for the speed of the exterior fire, and may well have been the straw that broke the Camel's back, but..... If the Windows hadn't been changed since I was there, then once the fire got inside, the wind would have done the rest.
The original Plans for the Tower should be looked at long and hard. I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but.... The fact is..
That Tower was 'Gerry built.'
Chris, you've been inside it. Tell me if I'm wrong.
The four towers on my estate that you mentioned opened in August 69. We were the second family to move onto the estate, hence my parents chose a four bed house of which there are only 6. The rest of the estate is the four towers and four low level maisonettes blocks. If you look at those towers, every sixth floor they have a large landing (white in colour). I remember asking Terry the caretaker why they had these white landing things. He said that if a fire broke out in the block residents could go to the landings and wait to be rescued. There's one on the 6th 12th and 18th floors. Each and every flat has a balcony as well. The escape staircase is at the front of the building with glass windows. Grenfells stairs are totally enclosed so are dark even in daylight let alone with acrid smoke. And there are no balconies whatsoever in Grenfell as we all know.
I don't read left wing propoganda... Like many lefty's won't read the mail.
Upon reflection, Not the right time for a political debate imo. So I'll respectfully withdraw from this thread and send my sympathy to those who are affected.
Why are leftist views considered propaganda??
As Jimmy Pursey succinctly put it in one Sham 69 song ' communists and national front, they're all the bleeding same'. I didn't believe it at the time.
You've got mired in semantics and you've lost me with your reasoning. I didn't say anything like how you're interpreting it.
There is no contradiction in the statement that the problems are systemic and that years of promoting neo-liberal capitalism are equally culpable in creating a society where the poor are demonised and the gap between rich and poor in our society is so vast it is revolting. Both are true - IMO.
It's only a 'perfectly reasonable question' if it is presented as such - i.e "would things have been different under a Labour government?" - but it wasn't.
Mussolini allegedly said "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power". We have seen how corporate power has grown under successive governments in this country and abroad, not least in the media and how they dominate the cultural narrative. As I said earlier, I think the tide is turning against this among ordinary people who are justifiably and righteously angry about all of is, not just the horrors of Grenfell, but the whole goddamn situation we find ourselves in in 2017.
Is Labour pro-capitalist under Corbyn? I don't think so. It certainly was previously, under Blair and Brown, egregiously so. You may be of the Thatcher school of thought - TINA - there is no alternative (to capitalism) - I don't know. but there certainly are alternatives, and perhaps we should be exploring them. I think Yuval Noah Harari's game-changing book Sapiens is excellent on this. One thing he considers at is how racism is generally considered unacceptable these days, but having a huge divide between rich and poor, which is tacitly supported by most, is not. Maybe it's time we reconsidered the neo-liberal justification that 'the poor will always be with us.'
"So this fire wouldnt have happened if labour was in power..?"
"would things have been different under a Labour government?"
Its the same question.
Personally I would say that the first statement is far more confrontational despite having the same meaning. I think it's the "so" at the beginning and the "..." at the end which completely change the tone of the question. Not that I'm an expert, just how i read the two statements if it helps.
Personally I would say that the first statement is far more confrontational despite having the same meaning. I think it's the "so" at the beginning and the "..." at the end which completely change the tone of the question. Not that I'm an expert, just how i read the two statements if it helps.
Hubble didnt call my question confrontational, he called it trite and demeaning, and vulgar.
All two main political parties must take some blame for this horrific fire.
But if I were the architects/designers/builders who were involved in the modifications of Grenfell Tower, I'd feel ashamed to have put my name to this disaster.
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