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It also makes it harder for them to recruit people and spread their hateful views. While they are doing this in mosques they will feel that it is accepted and part of Islam, if the mosques reject them and their views and they are left with no alternative but to preach hate in their basement it'll be clear to them that they've isolated themselves and that muslims don't support them.
Perhaps, obviously the less exposure the better but it doesn't sound like they're having much success in mosques so far, as they've all been reported to the authorities.
Romanian But the point is don't be judging others when you are not there facing it.
I've seen some comments elsewhere of him being criticized for calling them Muslim scum
My mistake, obviously didn't distinguish my Romance from Slovak languages and I know most Polish swear words, my wife has had cause to say them all to me many times.
As for having a go, we'd all like to think that we would, years of going to football I think would put me in good stead BUT until you're confronted with the situation thrust in front of you, a heat of the moment decision can be either extremely brave or extremely stupid for yourself and for others. Let's hope that we all never have to make such a decision.
My mistake, obviously didn't distinguish my Romance from Slovak languages and I know most Polish swear words, my wife has had cause to say them all to me many times.
As for having a go, we'd all like to think that we would, years of going to football I think would put me in good stead BUT until you're confronted with the situation thrust in front of you, a heat of the moment decision can be either extremely brave or extremely stupid for yourself and for others. Let's hope that we all never have to make such a decision.
I was in some pubs around Liverpool Street on Friday night. They were all absolutley rammed and so noisy it was almost impossible to have a conversation. A terrorist could have come through opposite door and started stabbing people whilst the other half of the pub know anything about it. Yes, we all like to think we have a go in the chaos how would we know what to do ?
Apart from that the POLICE ordered everyone to run. They wanted people out the way so they could isolate the terrorist and open fire. Worked pretty well I thought.
So that's your date of convenience and you're sticking to it then.
I think you've missed the key point here.
The 'why' is as important as the 'how' in trying to fathom out why these things are happening on the streets of several western countries. There is always a tipping point which triggers a reaction and while you can seek to downplay the role of western imperialism by saying, they started it, I'd suggest the balance of aggression has been more from us to them. Certainly in the last hundred or so years and that is what many are using as part of their recruitment.
'Always In Motion' by John Honney available on amazon.co.uk
It all feels a bit too much like 'V for Vendetta' for my liking.
Imagine it's all part of a plot to sweep the Tories to victory with the added twist of fake surge in the chances for Corbyn/Labour (has anyone ever done one of those opinion polls?)
"....yeah but he won't push the button or denounce terrorists by name. We'd better vote May in"
Here come the finger-men!
Or.....
It could be me trying to turn this disturbing reality into a fantasty dystopian drama.
The 'why' is as important as the 'how' in trying to fathom out why these things are happening on the streets of several western countries. There is always a tipping point which triggers a reaction and while you can seek to downplay the role of western imperialism by saying, they started it, I'd suggest the balance of aggression has been more from us to them. Certainly in the last hundred or so years and that is what many are using as part of their recruitment.
Where did I say 'they started it'?
The Crusades came about because the Byzantines appealed to the Pope for help in halting the expansion of the Seljuk Turks.
He called for a Crusade and a Holy War began, which as these things, do eventually evolved into a free for all for anyone in the West who fancied a power and land grab and share of the riches of the Orient. At one point Crusaders even sacked Contstantinople, more brutally than any Muslim city they captured.
Imagine if you will that the Islamic Holy of Holies had been left in Spain following the Reconquista, what do you think the Mulsims would have been trying to do about that since 1492, probably with far more determination?
I also acknowleged that the tide of recent history has flowed the West's way, just as it flowed East in the past. You're wedded to a window of a couple of centuries and Imperial guilt. Even the jihadis think further back than that, although of course they're even more convinced they've always been the victims than you are.
The Ottoman Empire sat as a big, fat, powerful buffer between Europe and Arabia for six centuries until it's defeat in WW1 and expanded in mainly two directions, North and West. There was no repeat of the Crusades in that time or anything like it that threatened the Muslim word until the scramble for Africa began.
You talk of tipping points, well 9/11 was a bright shining one and whether you agree with what has followed or not, we're living with the consequences of it every day. Why do the Islamist extremists get to be the only ones who can have a tipping point for a 'crusade'?
You're very odd lately Dave, very loud and sweary accusing everyone of various nonsense. I'm not as open minded as I was 20 years ago, less trusting of other cultures I guess, but your casual accusation of me being a racist is as pathetic as it is laughable. Get some help you're losing the plot. I'm not without prejudice, and know very little of Muslim culture, despite muslims being in my family for 40 years, I struggle to comprehend it. Even the every day conversation sounds violent to me. I love the fact reggae music influenced the Clash back in the day, love the food and culture, love the fact The Specials in our youth managed to face down a resurrgent far right and the fact a stroll through London will bring you into contact with all kinds of cultures. I dont much care for religion of any sort, less so for Muslim religion. So define how that makes me a racist in your eyes when my suspicion of a religious group is just that, with nohing to do with race whatsoever? It is mad to allow young blokes to go out to Syria and Libya and return as trained fighters and bomb makers. That is what I am arguing for, tighter security and internment for those people that seek to kill in the name of whatever chosen god. You need to stop gobbing off and think about what you are saying, disgusting vague unfounded accusations with absolutely no supporting evidence and engage your brain first. Absolute weapon.
[Post edited 5 Jun 2017 10:48]
Fûck me Jim, starting to sound like you maybe? One thing that I won't be is phobic in anyway shape or form and accept that there is good and bad in every society and culture but thankfully the good elements in all vastly outweigh the bad elements, unfortunately it is these very small elements that shout the loudest and influence the weakest. Now as someone who followed The Specials and their stance against the ultra right in UK in the 70's and really appreciated the reggae influence of The Clash (my favourite band of all time by the way), the fact that you are now 40 years older doesn't seem to make you 40 years wiser, whatever the decade, people are still people, black, white, yellow, brown, Christian, Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever, the vast, vast majority get along. And you should see and accept that. If anyone is a weapon, or w4nker as you called me in a previous post it is you with your islamaphobia.
I’m in the Lower Loft every home match if you want to come and say hello, or for night games I sometimes go into SAR. Happy to put a face to the name, though small talk might be a bit awkward if you’re sueing me.
If I’m reading you right and it’s a straightener you’re after, maybe we can have it in the centre circle as half-time entertainment. Two middle aged men having at it would probably be more of a giggle to watch than the actual football.
Your posts bore me because you begin with a conclusion —Â people should support the Tory party —Â and then fit an argument around it. So it’s hard to learn much from what you say, because it’s obviously party political, with all the editing of facts, leaps of faith and distraction tactics involved in a party political broadcast. If Theresa May cuts 20,000 OB, well, we didn’t need them anyway, and if as home secretary she oversaw the Manchester bomber coming in and out of Libya at 16 years old, well, isn’t Emily Thornberry a nasty woman?
As a Londoner bringing up a family —Â so at what feels like a tangible risk of being caught up in an incident like last night — these attacks make me sick, angry and scared, and because of that my first response is not to see it in terms of promoting a political party. Speaking less as an occasional Labour voter and more a husband and father, more police on the streets is one of the few realistic steps that might actually make a difference, at least in the short term. Some of the other ideas on here just seem to come out of a desire to crack heads, which is understandable but unhelpful. Internment is proven not to work, and while I’d like to see the railways nationalised my enthusiasm for the state doesn’t extend to wanting to live under the Stasi.
Of course ISIS are animals, of course you can lower the scumbags responsible for Saturday into a very, very small box at Belmarsh then lose the key. But as a Londoner I don’t want what you want for my city, and I’d be surprised if many others do either, the same way most Mancunians don’t want it, because it’s not what Britain should be about AND it won’t work.
I really don’t see myself as ideological, but as you’re determined to frame all responses to what we’re facing in terms of party politics, then fine - every time I see or read commentary from an actual security expert rather than a politician or columnist, it’s clear the Home Office under May made some very serious errors of judgement that have really helped make a bad situation worse, and that government policy is still not fit for purpose. I give much less of a fk about Jeremy Corbyn than I do my family, and on that level I sincerely and wholeheartedly do not trust the political party you promote on here with their safety.
Happy to leave it there and ignore each others posts from now on. We can skip the handshake.
[Post edited 5 Jun 2017 11:40]
Danny, you withdraw your remarks concerning apartheid and the slate is clean and I'll have more than a pint with you. As far as dealing with the scumbags and potential scumbags that will perpetrate further atrocities no doubt, my reasoning that extra police on the streets will not make much difference, low level planning that this recent attack and that at Westminster will never be stopped even with recruiting back 20,000 bobbies. France and Germany have a much higher rate of police per population and that didn't stop similar style attacks Nice and Berlin. Nobody wants a Stasi style society but these people are more likely to be picked up by what they search for online and I wouldn't mind putting a fair chunk of my mortgage on that their internet history isn't all gay porn. Of course everybody would prefer privacy but society has to adapt to changing circumstances. The Stasi didn't operate for the benefit of the people but for the benefit of the system. It won't be your local policeman that will win this war against terror but the security forces, MI5 and MI6 along those of our allies. The police's role in general is to keep law and order in general, as we have always known it and to be fair over recent years crime has reduced. What they have never done is fight wars.
I was in some pubs around Liverpool Street on Friday night. They were all absolutley rammed and so noisy it was almost impossible to have a conversation. A terrorist could have come through opposite door and started stabbing people whilst the other half of the pub know anything about it. Yes, we all like to think we have a go in the chaos how would we know what to do ?
Apart from that the POLICE ordered everyone to run. They wanted people out the way so they could isolate the terrorist and open fire. Worked pretty well I thought.
Seriously, how many people would "have a go" if 3 random nutters are randomly slashing people with what appears to be suicide belts on? Much easier to say (or type) than actually do.
A colleagues son was in the beer keller featured on the news. He was in the upper bar - police came in and said get out and put your hands above your head to everyone. If you drop your hands we will shoot you.
They were rushed back across the bridge to the station where people were bundled on to trains with no clear destinations. At the station they were separating out people of Asian appearance. One guy said to the police you are discriminating here and they replied no we are profiling.
A colleagues son was in the beer keller featured on the news. He was in the upper bar - police came in and said get out and put your hands above your head to everyone. If you drop your hands we will shoot you.
They were rushed back across the bridge to the station where people were bundled on to trains with no clear destinations. At the station they were separating out people of Asian appearance. One guy said to the police you are discriminating here and they replied no we are profiling.
Is there a point to this Phil or are you just commenting ! I make the police right a terrorist might have tried to lose himself in the crowd
A colleagues son was in the beer keller featured on the news. He was in the upper bar - police came in and said get out and put your hands above your head to everyone. If you drop your hands we will shoot you.
They were rushed back across the bridge to the station where people were bundled on to trains with no clear destinations. At the station they were separating out people of Asian appearance. One guy said to the police you are discriminating here and they replied no we are profiling.
I'm in that German bar quite often. Also go to borough market on numerous occasions, this Friday I'm getting a job transfer to the borough of Newham, can't let the buggers win, have to get on with it.
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
Irrespective of what you think of Piers Morgan, he made a good point this morning
If you're a football fan who's ever caused trouble the authorities are very adept at stopping you in your tracks, if you're a paedo viewing child images on the internet the same authorities are straight on it, yet if you've openly advocated terror, been to fight in Syria, waved ISIS flags about, appeared on programmes subtly titled 'The jihadi next door' apparently you are free to roam the streets of London.
I'm getting tired of vigils, candles, young girls getting slaughtered, whilst the authorities (and don't kid yourself it'll be any better with a Labour Government) sit back and let it happen.
Irrespective of what you think of Piers Morgan, he made a good point this morning
If you're a football fan who's ever caused trouble the authorities are very adept at stopping you in your tracks, if you're a paedo viewing child images on the internet the same authorities are straight on it, yet if you've openly advocated terror, been to fight in Syria, waved ISIS flags about, appeared on programmes subtly titled 'The jihadi next door' apparently you are free to roam the streets of London.
I'm getting tired of vigils, candles, young girls getting slaughtered, whilst the authorities (and don't kid yourself it'll be any better with a Labour Government) sit back and let it happen.
All on May's watch as HS and PM I would be just as critical if had been JC
Irrespective of what you think of Piers Morgan, he made a good point this morning
If you're a football fan who's ever caused trouble the authorities are very adept at stopping you in your tracks, if you're a paedo viewing child images on the internet the same authorities are straight on it, yet if you've openly advocated terror, been to fight in Syria, waved ISIS flags about, appeared on programmes subtly titled 'The jihadi next door' apparently you are free to roam the streets of London.
I'm getting tired of vigils, candles, young girls getting slaughtered, whilst the authorities (and don't kid yourself it'll be any better with a Labour Government) sit back and let it happen.
Yeah, not exactly subtle was he. You can only assume that if he was considered peripheral like the Manchester terrorists then there must be a load of really worrying investigations taking place. The police obviously need more resources to take this on. This guy should have ticked all the boxes but he was allowed to carry on as normal in his life.
Erica Gasparri, a mother of three who lives in the same complex, said she went to the park to confront him after her son came home and said: “Mummy, I want to be a Muslim.”
She rushed to the park and said that he was there with two people she had not seen before in the tight-knit community. She described the other two as a Pakistani man and a black man.
“He said, ‘I’m ready to do whatever I need to do in the name of Allah. I am ready in the name of Allah to do what needs to be done including killing my own mother,’” Gasparri said. “I don’t know how fast I went from the park to Barking police. I took four photographs of him and gave them to the police. They rang Scotland Yard when I was there and said the information had been passed on to Scotland Yard. They were very concerned.
“They told me to delete the photos for my own safety which I did but then I heard nothing. That was two years ago. No one came to me. If they did, this could have been prevented and lives could
Irrespective of what you think of Piers Morgan, he made a good point this morning
If you're a football fan who's ever caused trouble the authorities are very adept at stopping you in your tracks, if you're a paedo viewing child images on the internet the same authorities are straight on it, yet if you've openly advocated terror, been to fight in Syria, waved ISIS flags about, appeared on programmes subtly titled 'The jihadi next door' apparently you are free to roam the streets of London.
I'm getting tired of vigils, candles, young girls getting slaughtered, whilst the authorities (and don't kid yourself it'll be any better with a Labour Government) sit back and let it happen.
Agree completely with this.
Without condoning football violence anybody caught involved in problems at matches gets slapped with a really heavy sentence, with football as an aggravating factor. You can be banned from travelling to towns and cities when a certain team is playing there, you can be forced to hand in your passport to the police whenever England are playing away, all sorts of stuff like this. Why is it legally different, or seemingly more difficult, to do that in these cases? If they're on a "watchlist" fcking watch them!
I keep seeing the Channel 4 doc clip of that bloke with the big beard in Ealing who goes out preaching on the streets. He always stops just short of saying he supports IS or advocating people commit terrorist attacks publicly, but he obviously believes that and the guy doing the interview says to him "you believe it, but you're not saying it on camera because you don't want to be arrested" and he's like "of course, who does?" This guy is talking about throwing gays off the roof of Ealing Town Hall, now why on earth can we do nothing about him just because he stops marginally short of telling people publicly to blow themselves up? It's ridiculous.
Yeah, not exactly subtle was he. You can only assume that if he was considered peripheral like the Manchester terrorists then there must be a load of really worrying investigations taking place. The police obviously need more resources to take this on. This guy should have ticked all the boxes but he was allowed to carry on as normal in his life.
Erica Gasparri, a mother of three who lives in the same complex, said she went to the park to confront him after her son came home and said: “Mummy, I want to be a Muslim.”
She rushed to the park and said that he was there with two people she had not seen before in the tight-knit community. She described the other two as a Pakistani man and a black man.
“He said, ‘I’m ready to do whatever I need to do in the name of Allah. I am ready in the name of Allah to do what needs to be done including killing my own mother,’” Gasparri said. “I don’t know how fast I went from the park to Barking police. I took four photographs of him and gave them to the police. They rang Scotland Yard when I was there and said the information had been passed on to Scotland Yard. They were very concerned.
“They told me to delete the photos for my own safety which I did but then I heard nothing. That was two years ago. No one came to me. If they did, this could have been prevented and lives could
Well this is it, very interesting story.
If people lose faith in the authorities taking a pro active stance on this sort of thing, what is the point of them reporting stuff?
May is a fckin disaster, Corbyn will do everything possible to stop tagging or affirmative action against UK based terrorists, it's in his blood unfortunately, and Tiny Tim would open the flood gates to anybody who fancied coming over and having a pop at us.
We'll get to the point where girls being stabbed up or blown to pieces will be relegated to a column of an inside page in your newspaper, whilst the legal system and governments turn a blind eye to the cancer in our society. What a shower of so called leaders.
I knew a Russian women who is an IT specialist who was in London on a working visa. There were strict requirements and she had to give the police her address. Suspected jihadists can waltz in and out of Syria, Libya etc with no concerns being flagged.
If people lose faith in the authorities taking a pro active stance on this sort of thing, what is the point of them reporting stuff?
May is a fckin disaster, Corbyn will do everything possible to stop tagging or affirmative action against UK based terrorists, it's in his blood unfortunately, and Tiny Tim would open the flood gates to anybody who fancied coming over and having a pop at us.
We'll get to the point where girls being stabbed up or blown to pieces will be relegated to a column of an inside page in your newspaper, whilst the legal system and governments turn a blind eye to the cancer in our society. What a shower of so called leaders.
Well that will be playing in to the hands of Ukip and them running the country in 5 years
They may not be getting votes now but more attacks and I can see it going that way.
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