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Reply | Share update (n/t) (n/t)
at 22:57 11 Jun 2016
Do you think this changes anything re Warren Farm? [Post edited 11 Jun 2016 23:00]
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Reply | Warren Farm
at 23:57 3 Apr 2014
Got to question your understanding of democracy and this public-private partnership.
In the UK the first past the post voting system is used. It is very rare for a national or local election to be voted in with a majority (ie 50% + 1).
The contention is that Ealing have broken their own rules. And a four year period is far too long to wait for that to be reviewed.
Hence the requirement for and the legal provision for a judicial review. It is costly, time consuming and requires a great deal of drive to make it happen.
For that reason, the number of petition signatories and the number of people who have given their own money in what is a relatively less well off part of West London is extremely impressive.
In terms of the public-private partnership, yes, there are many such partnerships these days. Once again Ealing failed to work within their own guidelines. They have failed to talk to the people who live by Warren Farm and use Warren Farm. It's easy and convenient to dismiss this as NIMBYism. Hopefully you would object if someone was going to take away the green space that you and your family use for their recreation.
If you don't, you should.
The issues is with and against the actions of Ealing. If the JR goes against Ealing it will be interesting to see QPR's response. |
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Reply | Warren Farm
at 11:15 18 Jan 2014
15 mins of fame? Having a football club on the door step would be a far better way of achieving this,
Precisely the opposite. Quiet life very much preferred.
Perfectly aligned to saving warren farm, which would also involve development WITHOUT fencing it off. |
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Reply | Warren Farm
at 00:11 18 Jan 2014
As said before, this is not about QPR in any way. Yes, the club could have done more, they didn't.
It is about Ealing Council.
As QPR fans, concerns should be with FFP.
Good luck at home to Huddersfield.
SWF |
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Reply | Warren Farm
at 19:04 16 Jan 2014
The issue is that Warren Farm is being fenced off. And that Ealing are not getting anywhere near the best deal for Ealing Council tax payers.
Professional campaigner. Flattered. But only professional if you're a professional football supporter.
SWF |
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Reply | Warren Farm
at 10:53 16 Jan 2014
Good run of results to get back up on top.
And good to see the information about the final agreement is on the Forum. There have been some generous and thoughtful comments understanding the position of those who wish to prevent the development of Warren Farm as proposed. Thank you.
This is no attempt to try and sway people to change their view. This is simply an attempt to share the situation on the ground.
Some general responses.
A section of a community that uses Warren Farm in ways far beyond football is up against Ealing Council and, when they choose to engage, QPR. While some may think that in the days of social media it's easy to whip up a campaign, it isn't that simple. At the time of writing, there are only about 18 people on this forum. Are there only 18 QPR supporters? We all know there are many more.
Contrary to the views expressed by some, people do have lives beyond fighting to keep Warren Farm open access.
Also generous of someone to suggest that comments and presence of SWF on this forum is not altruistic. It's not. The purpose is to share a more balanced view to an audience that are (and should be) biased towards the future tenants. Similarly, not expecting to find any nuggets of information that might be useful for a Judicial Review.
So to revisit what the issues are.
Warren Farm is currently open to use. No fence, no controlled access. It's great. You can visit when you like, how you like and do anything legal there that you like. The current proposal fences off the site.
I say currently. Ealing has either assisted people to leave or applied very heavy pressure to get them to shut up otherwise they'll lose even more. Access has already been reduced for some. So we don't need to wait for the fence.
Someone mentioned you shouldn't walk dogs there. Correct. Another example of Ealing being highly selective about dog control due to dog mess. It would be great if they cared that much about about the pavements that we have to walk on.
The proposals. There are merits to what is being done. Everyone would like to see better facilities there. However, what is being done is only upgrading what is already there (which Ealing let fall to pieces) in return for fencing off the land with no legal guarantee of what will be provided for the community. The community have nothing. Yes, there will be facilities created for community purpose, but there is not legal contract stating this. So what do the community get? Legally, loss of free, open access. Loss of land. No guarantee of anything for the community.
This is a 200 year leasehold. Most home owners only have 150 lease top. It is a ridiculously long lease.
This all adds up to massive incompetence and waste of resources by Ealing Council.
Most people on this Forum will pay tax. Most would probably like to pay less and see their taxes used better.
This is another element of why the current proposals should be stopped. Put aside your QPR scarf for a moment and ask if you would like to see such incompetence by your local Council. And yet we are constantly told about cuts.
It is a great deal for QPR. Repeat. It is a great deal for QPR.
It is a really, really, really crap deal for Ealing Council Tax payers.
And as for that 61 acre green space that has just a small blight of a poorly maintained changing rooms that need redeveloping.
Well if it was your bit of local space, would you happily see it fenced off, handed over and be told to go and get in a car and go a few miles down the road to some other bit of green space?
Honestly? You wouldn't. You pop out to play with the kids, you don't mount a major day out!
So please ask your club why they haven't engaged with local residents? We've asked them to. They don't want to.
And so please ask yourselves if the deal is fair? Not part of the deal, the WHOLE deal.
Only a person with a seriously vested interested could conclude it is fair.
You should want your club to be the best it can. But at what cost.
SWF |
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Reply | Warren Farm
at 23:58 14 Oct 2013
Hello. Returning to reply. Again, will try to respond to questions raised. Haven't had a chance before - busy life and all that (although appears some would question that).
BTW, congratulations on the QPR contribution to England win last week. Hopefully Townsend can shine again. Many credit his time at QPR as being instrumental to his improvement.
On to Warren Farm.
Why now? Because it's happening now. And those that have enjoyed using Warren Farm for activities beyond football now realise that their open space is going to be closed to them. No more detail available now because some of it links to the possible judicial review. Whether that goes ahead is in the hands of Ealing Council (this isn't a QPR issue). There's very strong opposition to what is proposed by those who use the space. Unfortunately, is isn't the vast majority of Ealing residents opinion that is relevant. It would be very easy to come up with a topic and then come up with a loosely linked group of people and find a lack of interest across the two. Talk to people who know about Warren Farm and use it and there is consistent disbelief at what Ealing Council has done and are doing.
The state of the current place is not the issue. It is the failure of Ealing Council to manage and maintain the facility that has led to this situation. Turn the camera round from the picture of the facility and you have a large expanse of green, open access land. A fantastic, open, expanse of green land that on anything but a very wet day will have people playing games that don't need facilities, goal posts, Council interference. And yes, that includes dog walking (which of course no one on this forum has a dog!)
No one is asking anyone on this forum to go against QPR. That would be ridiculous. But just to try, if you can for a moment, and understand that if someone tried to remove the bit of green space that is closest to where you live, you would be pretty hacked off.
QPR Jim - back to discuss and try and get understanding (which is not the same as agreement). Not here to annoy or waste my time (or yours).
Valuations. These are based on figures prepared by Ealing Council. They just chose to pick the lowest figures they could. And they're not being paid that either.
First Draft - giving Ealing the benefit of the doubt. They know full well that they would get ripped to shreds with no mention of community. And as QPR COO has acknowledged, one of the greatest challenges is combining elite / academy use with community access. QPR don't really want community access (which is different to community engagement). It doesn't happen at other Premier League / elite facility and that is the QPR aspiration.
Will locals benefit? Of course some will. Again, trying to be genuine in responding to the question. Most locals won't and the 'benefits' have been dressed up far more than the reality. Again, not undermining QPR or their community activity - both parts of the club probably do a great job. Just acknowledging a basic reality - community activity and elite sport do not really mix.
Barnet FC. Thanks for the tip. Will try to take a look. There is genuine interest to find out how community access would work. There is no response to the repeatedly asked question because it isn't an option. Locals are being shut out - literally fenced out - of Warren Farm. With regards to Barnet and community, I don't think many on this forum would put QPR's aspirations on a par with League Two Barnet FC. If they were, then perhaps the need to fence off 61 acres would not be so great.
Legal review. Will leave it hanging as to where the fundraising is going. You may wish to ask the question why there is this delay.
Scillo - you got -3 for your empathy. Your comments are pretty close to the issue.
DylanP - appreciate your opinion. It's not an opposition to a QPR-led sports facility. It's opposition to Ealing Council plans. The sports facility that maintains community access would be very welcome. And the role of QPR in this is a side issue. Insert the name of any large organisation - it's not relevant to the core issue which is why this is Save Warren Farm (and not anti-large organisation). Not sure what you base your view on regarding green space, but concrete over green space would probably get most in favour of green space. Those who like sport find it difficult to appreciate that most people don't give a monkeys about any sport at all. But appreciate your view. And for information Ealing have opened a new sports centre in a far more accessible location just up the road (probably less than a mile from Warren Farm).
Kingo - thanks for suggestion. Will explore. No one is blindly signing petitions. Warren Farm does have a public value. Just the measure of that value differs between people.
QPR in the Community - yes, they do a lot in the community. That doesn't change the issues around Warren Farm. 61 acres of green open field are going to be fenced off. People who currently use Warren Farm do not want to have to wait for a security guard to give them permission to access what small part of the site remains - if any - and be told to leave when the security guard says. People will stop going... leaving it open for Ealing Council and the tenants to do what they clearly want to do. You can complete that thought process, but it's not looking at just the next ten years.
Giving the land away. Phil Beard has publicly stated they are being gifted the land. Ealing are yet to publicly deny it. Who do you want to believe? QPR's role in this not the issue. Therefore choice between dilapidation and QPR is not a false one. If only the local community were considered a stakeholder.
Got to go. Life to live and all that. Will try and respond to any other questions that may be asked. |
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Reply | Warren Farm
at 23:32 2 Oct 2013
Trying to respond, as promised, tackling lots together.
Firstly, this isn't about QPR. It's about Warren Farm, Ealing Council's appalling management of the site and leasing process, and current users being ignored in both their views and suggestions. QPR are a great team, good manager (shame to see McClaren go) and with great vision for the future. Football is a great individual and team sport. There are many QPR fans in Ealing (my team is not really relevant). And many of them oppose the plans when they realise what is actually happening.
It's a 200 year lease and in the first draft there was no mention of community or public access in the lease. These are facts, and the basis of what we should talk about.
Why save what is 'one step up from a cess pit'?
No one is suggesting saving the facilities shown in the photo. Most of the site is untouched green fields.
The facilities were excellent at one time, and could be again. What is left is due to Ealing's mismanagement. Ealing should be managing the site, not offloading. It is a resource that should be managed not given away for peanuts. If you live in Ealing, it's your resource the Council are giving away. It could be a great community facility that maintains free and open access to the space. Before suggesting money is tight, Ealing have just announced plans to spend £5.4 million on Walpole Park - see http://bit.ly/1fI7EqB.
The rest of the field is used for far more than weekend football. Baseball, rounders, cricket, tennis, kite flying, model airplanes, picnics, running, jogging, primary school sports days, community events from Southall and across West London, and good old just messing around. And yes dog walkers (some of you may have dogs that need exercise).
Will locals benefit?
Some, possibly, probably. Let's be honest here. The proposed tenants run a football club. That is their primary interest. QPR in the Community Trust is great and does great work, but the primary focus is success for the club and first team.
No other elite academy shares with the community because sharing doesn't work. Yes, community may visit from time to time, but that isn't sharing. The QPR COO Donnelly has said as much because it is true (see - http://www.stadiumdesignsummit.com/speaker-preview-project-qa-with-mark-donnelly
Who uses it, lots of people, as said earlier. They just don't play football in a structured way.
What would be ok there?
Good facilities, supporting wide range of sports, well managed and maintained. It'd be a fraction of the £5.4mn going to Walpole Park. Closer to the £2.5 mn Ealing just spent on a car park in Southall.
Petitions
306 may not seem many, but then our resources don't match those of Ealing Council. And actual details were released at the very last possible moment. They have committed many errors which won't be covered here, some of them hilarious.
In summary, Ealing shared a great community vision. The reality is that people will only be able to access less than one third of the current space and then only with security permission.
Good things about the proposal
From the QPR perspective, many. They get the asset at no cash cost. A 200 year lease that is unbelievably vague, and a landlord that has a proven track record of poorly managing service level agreements.
Even better is that they're getting land worth up to £66mn for an assigned value of £1.8-2.5mn. That is a bargain.
It's appalling value for money for Ealing residents and council tax payers,
One of our concerns is that in 20-30 years time, pressure for development would have increased and the fields will be built on. Football is unlikely to be able to sustain current levels of interest; everything goes through phases.
Got to go now. Hopefully that gives some perspective. Hopefully you can understand some of the objections. Hopefully sympathise, maybe even agree.
Whatever your view, Warren Farm is used and the loss of open access will be a great loss for many, many people.
Hence the wish to save warren farm.
Please don't give this posting a kicking just because you don't like it. Simply trying to share information.
Cheers. |
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Reply | Warren Farm
at 23:30 1 Oct 2013
Interesting discussion. If anyone has any questions, shall try to answer honestly and with factual information. |
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