 | Forum
Reply | Our Pomp and Ceremony - Match thread vs PFC
at 23:15 17 Oct 2024
All due respect, FDC, the brilliant analysis by Andrew Scherer indicates that progressing the ball forward and creating chances isn’t THE issue. It’s great but it is not much different from under Cifuentes last year, save for the fact loads of our shots are getting blocked.
The issue is we’re conceding lots of goals and chances. And why? Because we make a very low number of tackles across the board, but the big difference from last year is in central midfield.
This conceding of goals is what is probably driving the increase of blocked shots, because the oppo are winning, defending a lead, and have more men behind the ball.
Make more tackles, concede fewer chances and goals, don’t be behind for as long, and we’ll score more, because there will be more space in that final third.
The issue is we’re soft and not making anywhere near enough tackles (or fouls). Game after game the oppo make more tackles than us.
On that basis you have to drop Madsen and Andersen. You need to play Colback and Varane, with Field.
A few strong challenges early at home also get the crowd into it. |
| Forum
Reply | Joe Root
at 08:24 11 Oct 2024
Sehwag. Did his in something like 278 balls, I believe. |
| Forum
Reply | England v Greece
at 21:07 10 Oct 2024
Spot on Wilkins. It’s strangely similar. Very poor display and system clearly not working. Carsley has been completely out thought by the Greece boss so far. |
| Forum
Reply | Gallen Speaks
at 15:11 10 Oct 2024
I think that last question warrants more attention if we’re going to be wedded to the data driven signings approach.
When was the last time we paid money for a player and then sold that player for more money?
Off the top of my head we have paid good money for the following under Belk:
Washington
Ngbakoto
Dykes
Bonne
Luongo
Gladwin
Dickie
I believe all were whole or part led signings by his team.
I’ve not included the vast amount of free signings of which some have been good and some bad. I just want to be focused on how successful we have been with buying players.
Not one was sold for more than we bought them for, I believe.
We now have:
Celar
Madsen
Dembele
Varane
to add to that list.
Sooner or later we need a big hit. The main sales we have had over the years have come from picking up young talent at 16-18:
Eze
Armstrong
Dieng
(Dickie and Dykes were sold for less than we bought him for so not classifying them as a successful sale.)
The one I can’t remember whether we bought or signed as a free was Smithies, and when that was. He went for £4m so that was a good pick up.
Nevertheless, if this data model is to actually work, the squad get stronger, and he club significantly improve it’s league position, we must buy players who we sell for money. If, at the end of this season, it appears to be unlikely with these latest 4 signings, I think the question you ask at the end, must be asked once again… |
| Forum
Reply | Paul Smyth
at 09:32 6 Oct 2024
Paul Smyth is not the problem. He’s not in the top 5 problems with our side. Not even close.
Whether he should be a starter, a back up, or not at the club is a separate discussion.
Madsen
Andersen
Our full backs (when Dunne is not a RB)
Our centre forwards
The shape and system we are trying to play
Our lack of pace in the squad
Our lack of physicality in our squad
The end product of Saito and Dembele
Our record with Dunne at centre back instead of JCS
Colback’s lack of brain/suspension record
Varane’s lack of brain
Field’s weakness is passing forwards progressively
….just about all come before:
Smyth, as a substitute winger, and his end product. |
| Forum
Reply | Calendar
at 09:22 6 Oct 2024
No one is suggesting he is sacked. That would be madness. Thread is about when is enough time to expect the squad to have gelled and us look half decent.
I think Portsmouth. 10 games in. Will have had 2 weeks to prep on the training ground. We should look competent by then even if we don’t win. |
| Forum
Reply | Just back
at 08:14 6 Oct 2024
It might be a tad early to write off all the new signings, Dav. But I completely agree that the pragmatic and right thing to do would be to play the players from last season with Nardi. The PPG under Cifuentes would have reached 10th position over a full season I believe. Nardi is clearly a huge upgrade on Begovic too. I’d be happy with a back 4 of centre backs, Colback in next to Field. Chair in the middle (though hadn’t considered this as he has always played out left - even last season he played there and Andersen central at the back end of the season), with Smyth and Dembele wide. At present, we cannot play Madsen, and Andersen. And we can’t play 4 players behind the CF who are weak as p*SS and don’t contribute much off the ball. 3 is the most. In some games I’d play only 2. |
| Forum
Reply | Calendar
at 07:50 6 Oct 2024
I definitely wouldn’t suggest sacking anyone now/yet. It is too early to judge Belk’s signings in the round, although they don’t look too promising (Nardi apart), and clearly Cifuentes did an excellent job last year so I am sure he can fix it by being pragmatic and compromising on his footballing beliefs a little. If he doesn’t, I think this squad will go down trying to play this way.
In answer to your question, LBlock, it’s Saturday 19th October. Will be the 10th game. Will come after a two week block on the training ground with no matches to get this right. JCS should be back, and hopefully Colback. Chair should be fit and ready too. And we’re playing Portsmouth at home. One of only two sides below us.
If we can’t beat them and the team still hasn’t gelled then we have big problems. Even a draw if we play well and are unlucky is okay. We have to show something. Our next 6 fixture are:
Portsmouth (H)
Coventry (H)
Burnley (A)
Sunderland (H)
Middlesbrough (H)
Leeds (A)
After Portsmouth that is a very hard run of fixtures. Equally, only 2 away games out of 6. If we haven’t gelled by the Portsmouth game we could very conceivably not win any of those. If that were to happen, and we comfortably lose 2-3 more home games, the crowd will have turned, I think.
For his sake, our sake, and the club’s sake, he has to show some pragmatism again. Put Field, Colback and one of Varane, EBD, Madsen, Andersen (one only!) in the middle. Stick Dunne back at RB (if it means playing Fox a CB because JCS isn’t fit yet, so be it). Dembele on one side, Chair on the other. Frey up top. That side should beat Portsmouth. And don’t be afraid to knock it long and mix up this playing out. Make teams work hard to score against us. |
| Forum
Reply | Hull Reflection
at 13:31 2 Oct 2024
Not according to the stats houses. All have us down as 9 tackles. And SkySports who give you the breakdown per player had him with zero tackles and zero fouls. They don’t show interceptions so perhaps classed as that? I personally do not recall him making a tackle.
Details though. He’s pony out of possession. Everyone around me was moaning about him. For balance he played a couple of beautiful big diags out to the flank. He clearly has some technical ability but you cannot carry all these passengers out of possession. |
| Forum
Reply | Hull Reflection
at 10:09 2 Oct 2024
Exactly Brian. Jim F and I were saying the same thing last night.
Last year the centre of the pitch was 2 then 1 in a triangle. This season, especially the last 4 games, it has been 1 then 2 in the reverse triangle. And those “2” in Madsen and Andersen simply do not track back effectively or press effectively. Zero tackles last night and one foul; they simply weren’t close enough to the ball and Hull’s players.
This means you have a back 4 and Field defending with 5 players the wrong side of the ball all too often. Add that our FBs were forcing the CBs to stretch out wide to cover the ball over the top into the channel (creating a bigger hole in the middle) and that the FBs were exposed and left 1-1, and it is a recipe for conceding a lot of big chances.
At the minute I think he’s trying to do too much. Have a flat back 4, and have the wingers track back more, and perhaps you can get away with Madsen not tracking back in central midfield. Or be ambitious with your full backs but then you have to have two players in central midfield able to cover and shuffle left to right. At times yesterday, if you’d stopped the play, Field had no QPR player within 15 yards of him, and he was bang in the middle of the pitch. That is not right. One one occasion, there were 4 Hull players around him in a box shape.
As you said, our 4 behind Frey were far far too high.
I’d also add that our back 4 was too deep. I suspect this was because of Dunne. He is slow and suspect to a ball over the top. Our record with him starting at centre half over the last two years is woeful. Think it was 7 wins on 40 games before he moved to right back last year. This season, we’ve lost the games he’s started at centre halves too.
Far too much space between our lines. |
| Forum
Reply | Hull Reflection
at 00:08 2 Oct 2024
That might have been what was intended, but Madsen was very rarely along side Field in a two man central midfield. Either it was deliberate to have him pushed on or he is a lazy bugger and doesn’t get back.
Paal did invert in the first. Not as much as the second or Millwall, but he did it on a couple of occasions and Dunne was out defending by R block.
Agree to disagree. I think Cifuentes is culpable for system and personnel today. Praise him when he gets it right. Today it was not right. |
| Forum
Reply | Tactical approach
at 23:52 1 Oct 2024
I think the tactics are wrong.
We played 4141 today. Or at least that is the shape we held for much of the game. Whether Madsen was meant to be 10 yards in front of Field, is a different question.
Our front 5, more precisely the 4 behind Frey (Saito, Madsen, Andersen, Dembele) were too high and failed to get back goalside when we turned the ball over. Countless times all 5 of those players were the wrong side of the ball “running” back towards our box.
This was compounded by Paal inverting (badly) a lot, leaving a huge hole behind him which forced Dunne out to cover him. That gives Cook a massive problem. He can’t leave a huge gap to Dunne but if he doesn’t, Santos comes narrow and the cross field pass is on with them in acres of space and Santos isolated. Field could drop in to help Cook and keep a more natural back 4, which he did sometimes, but that cedes the midfield entirely.
Our system was a complete mess. You cannot have 5 outfield players not contributing to your defensive set up out of possession. I repeat. 1 tackle all game from that front 5. 1 tackle from the subs that replaced them. So 2 tackles from the front 5 all game. Passengers when we don’t have it. You can’t get away with that in the Championship. |
| Forum
Reply | Hull Reflection
at 23:47 1 Oct 2024
I’ll put it here again.
9 tackles made all game to Hull’s 18.
Madsen did not make challenge all game (no tackles or fouls).
Andersen made one challenge (a foul) and gifted them their second goal.
Our starting front 5 made one tackle all game (Saito)
Our subs made 1 tackle all game (Smyth)
Field made 2, Paal 2, Dunne 1, Cook 1, Santos 1. The back 4 at least made some clearances.
We have too many “ballers” and not enough footballers in the team. Footballers who know how to play out of possession. It’s no good being a baller if you don’t have possession and can’t win it back.
This imbalance coupled with the shape and system meant we were so easy to play against. Hull didn’t even have to work that hard to create chances. |
| Forum
Reply | Madsen
at 23:30 1 Oct 2024
I agree. I just think you might be able to accommodate him (‘might!’) if he plays at 10. You might be able to carry him as a passenger out of possession and then hope he creates with it somehow.
He cannot play in central midfield though. He’s no more a central midfielder than Stuart Wardley was.
Playing Andersen and him is like playing with 9 men out of possession. Throw in Saito who is so light weight, Paal often 10 yards too high, Santos making naive errors, and we are just so easy to play against.
That system with that personnel that was played today - similar to the Millwall game - does not work. Varane in there is better - we at least held Blackburn evenly whilst it was 11 v 11 - but Varane himself has a lot of flaws. I see some potential there though. I’d play Field, Varane, and Colback just to be sure though. We have to be better out of possession. Today was as easy for Hull to play through us as it was for Blackburn around the same time last year. They could have ended up with 5 at the end.
We made 9 tackles all game. Field made 2 of them, Saito 1, the back 4 the rest. Andersen, Madsen and Dembele made 0 combined. Our starting front 5 made 1 tackle between them all game. That is awful.
To add to this, Madsen did not even concede a foul. So in 83 mins he did not make a single challenge….supposedly playing in central midfield. Andersen conceded 1 foul from his only challenge. So between them just one challenge made (and a foul conceded) all game. That is pretty shocking. You cannot play both together. You simply can’t. [Post edited 1 Oct 23:40]
|
| Forum
Reply | Madsen
at 23:18 1 Oct 2024
I think Madsen and Andersen are the biggest problem! |
| Forum
Reply | Hull Reflection
at 23:15 1 Oct 2024
It was on Cifuentes today. Suicidal personnel in that shape and system. Our front 5, well, the 4 behind Frey, were way too high. We played a 4141 but the gap between Field and Madsen and Andersen in front of him were huge. Every time we lost it we had 5 players the wrong side of the ball and were scrambling. Paal trying (badly) to play inverted fullback stretched the centre halves massively too. We were so easy to play against.
Madsen and Andersen can only play at 10. You can only play one of them. At present, I’m not sure you play either. It is mad we keep playing Madsen in central midfield. He has absolutely no awareness or positional sense when are out of possession.
Today we had 3 defensively minded players on the pitch, out of 10. Cook, Dunne, Field. That is not sufficient. The imbalance is far too big. I would get Dunne back at right back as soon as we can, I’d play Field, Colback and Varane in the middle (and ask the latter two not to be idiots), and then play Dembele, Chair, Frey ahead. It may be less creative. It may mean fewer players forward, but it’ll be a lot more solid. |
| Forum
Reply | Madsen
at 23:07 1 Oct 2024
Agree. Madsen is a free role 10. He does not have a defensive bone in his body. Has absolutely no positional sense, no instinct of where the ball will, does not track runners, and doesn’t put himself about. If he plays it has to be at 10.
Andersen is exactly the same. Can only play as a luxury 10.
You simply cannot play both together. Was. Obvious after Millwall when we were lucky not to lose. Today we were lucky we didn’t lose by more.
Playing both is compounded by asking Paal to invert (push higher and more central). When we lose the ball, he’s miles out of position, forcing Dunne to come across to the left, leaving Cook exposed in the middle, whilst Field is exposed ahead of him because our front 5 are all the wrong side of the ball. Gaps everywhere. Way too open.
As I said very early in the season, I’d play Field, Colback and Varane all in the middle to try to add some coagulant in there. I’d bin off this inverted fullback stuff; it is not working. And I’d ask Dembele, Chair and Frey to try to create. We have to become harder to beat and play through. Teams who don’t concede sometimes win. Teams who concede 2-3 every week tend to lose a lot. Build from the back. |
| Forum
Reply | Fans Forum 30/09/24
at 09:57 1 Oct 2024
Sorry thought this was clear. It is my opinion that there are only two logical options. If someone can present a rational third option, then I’m all ears. Following last night, I think it is pretty obvious Nourry is a bit of a control freak. Again my opinion, of course. |
| Forum
Reply | Dembele
at 23:22 30 Sep 2024
Are you insinuating that is perhaps untrue, Clive? |
| Forum
Reply | Never a straight Red Card
at 20:33 29 Sep 2024
Exactly. It was stupid. I think it’s a yellow on some days and a red on others. But the point is, don’t make such a stupid challenge.
Varane needs to seriously up his level of performance. His passing wasn’t brave on Saturday and, off the ball, his positioning and tracking of runners is bad, a real concern. |
| | Hunterhoop
|
Site Scores| Forum Votes: | 6194 | | Comment Votes: | 29 | | Prediction League: | 1 | | TOTAL: | 6224 |
|
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.