| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 19:49 - Sep 10 with 1398 views | Bobbyjoe |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 12:39 - Sep 10 by Banned4ever |
How, about destroying whole, communities and peoples lively hoods
Miners,metal, workers and shipyards.
Selling, off cheap,BT,Gas/electric,Rail,netwoks, and now these companies are racking in big prophets and paying mega bonus to directors-and shareholders
While still being heavy, subsidised by the government.
3million, unemployed.
And, manufacturing A war with Argentina
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No, the government (not hers) manufactured a war with Iraq. Argentina had real planes, ships and stuff, not imaginary ones, and used them to invade British territory. I'm sure you'd have defended her to the hilt had she pre-emptively attacked Argentina! |  | |  |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 19:55 - Sep 10 with 1392 views | Birchy915 |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 16:48 - Sep 10 by Banned4ever |
Birchy,like, I said when you look at, companies That are now in private, sector
There still being, subsidised
When it was one industry - British Rail - it was subsidised to the tune of a billion to a billion-and-a-half in today's money and at the moment it's getting four billion pounds of taxpayers' money"
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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That will always be the case, rail can't ever hope to function by itself simply because only urban tracks are used frequently enough, all the rural tracks would end up disused.
That subsidy keeps the rural tracks open and ultimately is a boost to the economies of rural places, it would be impossible to measure whether keeping those lines open is worth 4 billion or not.
This is a very different issue to the coal miners strike, coal is not part of the infrastructure, our coal was more expensive, plus we had to subsidise it, it made better economic sense to close the mines and import coal, the problem was that the unions were not prepared to let go.
And the age old line "It would be cheaper than having all those workers on the dole" is complete rubbish, if you look at a long term model, people who lose their jobs eventually find new ones, hard working people don't become benefit scroungers over night, the coal however, remains cheap!
If I might modify what I said in my last post, you can subsidise a company if you get something of value out of it, you cant subsidise a company that gives you nothing. |  |
| I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions -- but I don't always agree with them. |
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 20:05 - Sep 10 with 1379 views | dribdrab |
Pretty much disagree with everything BannedForever has said so far.
Well those bits I could decipher.
I have never agreed with the government propping up national industries and losing money in the process; I didn't see the point in maintaining a coal industry when it could be imported cheaper than it could be mined (other than the obvious ethical issue).
However there is something in that post about the rail industry.
I don't know whether the figures are correct but I have certainly heard elsewhere that the privatised rail industry costs us more than than the nationalised industry did (in current financial worth). This is the only instance where I could be convinced that there is any merit in a nationalised industry. We can't do without a rail network, if we need to pay for it why not do it in such a way that the country benefits, rather than shareholders and overpaid executives? | | | |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 21:20 - Sep 10 with 1340 views | pioneer |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 20:05 - Sep 10 by dribdrab |
Pretty much disagree with everything BannedForever has said so far.
Well those bits I could decipher.
I have never agreed with the government propping up national industries and losing money in the process; I didn't see the point in maintaining a coal industry when it could be imported cheaper than it could be mined (other than the obvious ethical issue).
However there is something in that post about the rail industry.
I don't know whether the figures are correct but I have certainly heard elsewhere that the privatised rail industry costs us more than than the nationalised industry did (in current financial worth). This is the only instance where I could be convinced that there is any merit in a nationalised industry. We can't do without a rail network, if we need to pay for it why not do it in such a way that the country benefits, rather than shareholders and overpaid executives? |
the answer to your question is "Richard Branson' - is he a large Tory benefactor or not?
Next time you see a premiership game on TV look at all those buggers swigging back the booze in the private boxes - all paid for in part by the government (ie me and you) because of the corporate welfare culture.
Railways are natural monopolies which cannot be run efficienctly by a private sector - they were privatised for no other reason than Thatcher wanted to redistribute wealth to her chums (who never did anything to earn it)- no matter what that meant to the customer. | | | |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 22:53 - Sep 10 with 1318 views | dribdrab |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 21:20 - Sep 10 by pioneer |
the answer to your question is "Richard Branson' - is he a large Tory benefactor or not?
Next time you see a premiership game on TV look at all those buggers swigging back the booze in the private boxes - all paid for in part by the government (ie me and you) because of the corporate welfare culture.
Railways are natural monopolies which cannot be run efficienctly by a private sector - they were privatised for no other reason than Thatcher wanted to redistribute wealth to her chums (who never did anything to earn it)- no matter what that meant to the customer. |
I'm not sure I agree with your points.
Whilst the railways might be seen as a monopoly, they clearly can be run by the private sector, indeed the private sector built them. The question is whether there is any merit in having the private sector do a job if it can be done more cheaply in the public sector? I'm not sure there is.
As for corporate welfare, I think that is more of an American import than anything to do with government. Clearly a degree of mutual back-scratching goes on between those in power and those with vested interests.
You might call it corruption but then again any of us might also use similar tactics in our daily jobs, the difference being that, in that instance , you would call it networking rather than corruption.
I suspect somebody with Richard Branson's acumen would contribute to the coffers of the government of the day rather than a political party. He seems more pragmatic than political, and although he backed the Tories at the last election he has frequently criticised them since. | | | |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 00:27 - Sep 11 with 1297 views | mizfit |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 10:56 - Sep 10 by ceme_ender |
Shut up you fu-cking bell end, i think they have every right to be quite angry about the completely unneccessary loss of life. You don't expect to go to a game of football with your family and for your two daughters not to come home alive, or your son or husband. People travel to football without tickets, always have done and always will. The police would have been expecting this and should have been able to control this outside of the ground.
The people that died were completely innocent football fans like ourselves. What gives you the right to pass judgement like that. How would you feel you heartless c.unt. |
want a tissue? | | | |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 01:27 - Sep 11 with 1286 views | Birchy915 |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 22:53 - Sep 10 by dribdrab |
I'm not sure I agree with your points.
Whilst the railways might be seen as a monopoly, they clearly can be run by the private sector, indeed the private sector built them. The question is whether there is any merit in having the private sector do a job if it can be done more cheaply in the public sector? I'm not sure there is.
As for corporate welfare, I think that is more of an American import than anything to do with government. Clearly a degree of mutual back-scratching goes on between those in power and those with vested interests.
You might call it corruption but then again any of us might also use similar tactics in our daily jobs, the difference being that, in that instance , you would call it networking rather than corruption.
I suspect somebody with Richard Branson's acumen would contribute to the coffers of the government of the day rather than a political party. He seems more pragmatic than political, and although he backed the Tories at the last election he has frequently criticised them since. |
We have to prop it up whoever runs it, splitting rail into urban and rural may be a solution, the urban side of it could be turned into a business and therefore competition is good, if sold on short term leases instead of outright as is currently the case.
I would support rural nationalisation, those lines simply cannot support themselves and may as well be government run. | |
| I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions -- but I don't always agree with them. |
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 09:13 - Sep 11 with 1255 views | Banned4ever |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 01:27 - Sep 11 by Birchy915 |
We have to prop it up whoever runs it, splitting rail into urban and rural may be a solution, the urban side of it could be turned into a business and therefore competition is good, if sold on short term leases instead of outright as is currently the case.
I would support rural nationalisation, those lines simply cannot support themselves and may as well be government run. |
While these companies, and shareholders are being subsidised by Taxes
The customers are paying fare increases,upto-40%
Madness
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion (n/t) on 11:39 - Sep 11 with 1229 views | 49thseason |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 09:13 - Sep 11 by Banned4ever |
While these companies, and shareholders are being subsidised by Taxes
The customers are paying fare increases,upto-40%
Madness
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[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 16:20 - Sep 11 with 1185 views | firgrovedale51 |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 16:01 - Sep 10 by MoonyDale |
Or just maybe the Liverpool fans without tickets should have stayed out of the ground instead of forcing through turnstiles and climbing gates, Cock.... |
İ am not saying fans were blameless but caused the deaths was the sudden rush because the gates were opened even after an experıenced South Yorkshire police sergeant advised against it . The S Y P dropped a major bollock and should own up to the fact .
Unless you think you know better | | | |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 17:29 - Sep 11 with 1162 views | blackpoolcol |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 09:13 - Sep 11 by Banned4ever |
While these companies, and shareholders are being subsidised by Taxes
The customers are paying fare increases,upto-40%
Madness
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British Rail disappeared in 1994, Blair came to power the next election - what did the Labour party do to re-nationalise the railways, nowt, zero, zip.
Keeping it in simple terms Labour maxed our the countries "credit card" in the 70s and it took the selling of our national assets to pay off the debt to a "manageable amount". We then got Labour back in and guess what, country is maxed out again and now, with nothing left to sell we get cuts cuts and more cuts.
My biggest fear is that Labour will get back in next time and destroy the bit of work that has been done to try to pay off the debts and just put us more in the kaka. Labour is like my ex, give it £1 and it spends £1.50
And finally, Thatcher was far from perfect but at least on the international stage she was listened to rather than the no marks that we have had for "leaders" since. |  |
| With my little stick of Blackpool Rock, along the promenade I'll stroll |
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 18:09 - Sep 11 with 1140 views | Banned4ever |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 17:29 - Sep 11 by blackpoolcol |
British Rail disappeared in 1994, Blair came to power the next election - what did the Labour party do to re-nationalise the railways, nowt, zero, zip.
Keeping it in simple terms Labour maxed our the countries "credit card" in the 70s and it took the selling of our national assets to pay off the debt to a "manageable amount". We then got Labour back in and guess what, country is maxed out again and now, with nothing left to sell we get cuts cuts and more cuts.
My biggest fear is that Labour will get back in next time and destroy the bit of work that has been done to try to pay off the debts and just put us more in the kaka. Labour is like my ex, give it £1 and it spends £1.50
And finally, Thatcher was far from perfect but at least on the international stage she was listened to rather than the no marks that we have had for "leaders" since. |
The, old we have no money line dose not mean anything when your giving it away
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2096628/British-foreign-aid-India-tells-
e Prime Minister’s pledge to increase foreign aid by 34 per cent to more than £12billion, even as domestic spending is slashed.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200104/Justine-Greening-Will-PMs-new-fo [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 18:26 - Sep 11 with 1127 views | mightydale |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 17:29 - Sep 11 by blackpoolcol |
British Rail disappeared in 1994, Blair came to power the next election - what did the Labour party do to re-nationalise the railways, nowt, zero, zip.
Keeping it in simple terms Labour maxed our the countries "credit card" in the 70s and it took the selling of our national assets to pay off the debt to a "manageable amount". We then got Labour back in and guess what, country is maxed out again and now, with nothing left to sell we get cuts cuts and more cuts.
My biggest fear is that Labour will get back in next time and destroy the bit of work that has been done to try to pay off the debts and just put us more in the kaka. Labour is like my ex, give it £1 and it spends £1.50
And finally, Thatcher was far from perfect but at least on the international stage she was listened to rather than the no marks that we have had for "leaders" since. |
well said blackpool col, this country is fcuked thanks to labour again. the way forward in my eyes UKIP or BRITISH FREEDOM PARTY. |  |
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 18:45 - Sep 11 with 1117 views | MoonyDale |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 16:20 - Sep 11 by firgrovedale51 |
İ am not saying fans were blameless but caused the deaths was the sudden rush because the gates were opened even after an experıenced South Yorkshire police sergeant advised against it . The S Y P dropped a major bollock and should own up to the fact .
Unless you think you know better |
I know what I saw with my own eyes, I saw drunken fans attempting to and succeeding in climbing over into the already full end, I also saw fans being crushed against closed turnstiles and gates, I never said the police didn't make the situation worse as gates were opened, it riles me no end though that after all these years that the fans that I have no doubt added to the disaster that unfolded have consistently failed to shoulder any of the blame, instead of which they have looked to blame anyone other than themselves in part at least.....Many many people both inside and outside of football know this but are to afraid to speak out, the reports that have been hidden for so long will indeed show that the police have to shoulder a great deal of blame for their part in that day, and my first comment wasn't even aimed at this tragedy...It was aimed at the city of Liverpool itself which comes across as sympathy whores, in fact if a cat was run over they would have a memorial service for it.... |  |
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 19:09 - Sep 11 with 1104 views | SuddenLad |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 18:45 - Sep 11 by MoonyDale |
I know what I saw with my own eyes, I saw drunken fans attempting to and succeeding in climbing over into the already full end, I also saw fans being crushed against closed turnstiles and gates, I never said the police didn't make the situation worse as gates were opened, it riles me no end though that after all these years that the fans that I have no doubt added to the disaster that unfolded have consistently failed to shoulder any of the blame, instead of which they have looked to blame anyone other than themselves in part at least.....Many many people both inside and outside of football know this but are to afraid to speak out, the reports that have been hidden for so long will indeed show that the police have to shoulder a great deal of blame for their part in that day, and my first comment wasn't even aimed at this tragedy...It was aimed at the city of Liverpool itself which comes across as sympathy whores, in fact if a cat was run over they would have a memorial service for it.... |
You're right of course, but the relatives need to find someone on whom to pin the entire blame. As long as that completely diverts attention away from the Liverpool supporters, of course. They will not rest in their quest.
I don't think people are afraid to speak out, it's just that people with "certain agendas" don't want to listen to any story that contradicts their own entrenched views. The truth is, that all parties present that day must each share the responsibility for what happened.
That may well be uncomfortable to accept for some Liverpudlians but the truth doesn't recognise accents.
Now, after the release of the documents, they will be baying for prosecutions and prison sentences. (Anyone will do - as long as it isn't a Liverpool supporter who was involved in the incident leading to the tragedy). When that doesn't happen - what next ? There's no end to this so-called campaign. Unfortunately, it won't bring one victim back, but it won't stop the obsession. |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 19:15 - Sep 11 with 1096 views | MoonyDale |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 19:09 - Sep 11 by SuddenLad |
You're right of course, but the relatives need to find someone on whom to pin the entire blame. As long as that completely diverts attention away from the Liverpool supporters, of course. They will not rest in their quest.
I don't think people are afraid to speak out, it's just that people with "certain agendas" don't want to listen to any story that contradicts their own entrenched views. The truth is, that all parties present that day must each share the responsibility for what happened.
That may well be uncomfortable to accept for some Liverpudlians but the truth doesn't recognise accents.
Now, after the release of the documents, they will be baying for prosecutions and prison sentences. (Anyone will do - as long as it isn't a Liverpool supporter who was involved in the incident leading to the tragedy). When that doesn't happen - what next ? There's no end to this so-called campaign. Unfortunately, it won't bring one victim back, but it won't stop the obsession. |
Without doubt the most accurate and sensible post on this thread...... | |
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 23:12 - Sep 11 with 1055 views | dribdrab |
I think this is a simple one to answer.
We are trying to by influence rather than gain it through the projection of force.
It won't be written down anywhere but I would assume that Whitehall mandarins are taking a gamble that money buys loyalty and as we don't seem inclined to maintain our Armed Forces to the required standard it is not much use trying to forge loyalties in the old fashioned way, via armed support.
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 11:18 - Sep 12 with 995 views | deezel |
although "they want to work" there has to be some commercial viability.
there is a remploy factory next unit to where i work, it closed last month.
the previous year it had a turnover of £69k and made a trading loss, on top of that it received a direct subsidy for staff of just under £500k from the government.
those figures are symptomatic of the majority of remploy units
the factory makes safety wear which is only sold to police authorities, at a time when police authorities are suffering budget cuts they have to buy from remploy when they could get them cheaper elsewhere.
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 11:45 - Sep 12 with 985 views | Banned4ever |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 11:18 - Sep 12 by deezel |
although "they want to work" there has to be some commercial viability.
there is a remploy factory next unit to where i work, it closed last month.
the previous year it had a turnover of £69k and made a trading loss, on top of that it received a direct subsidy for staff of just under £500k from the government.
those figures are symptomatic of the majority of remploy units
the factory makes safety wear which is only sold to police authorities, at a time when police authorities are suffering budget cuts they have to buy from remploy when they could get them cheaper elsewhere.
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Surly there a, alternative, then throwing then on the dole with little or no chance of gaining employment.
Remloy, offers disabled a better, chose of lifestyle.
When, you add the, figure's, up there alot, less then, other subsidised,firms
and,foreign aid to more than £12billion [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 13:25 - Sep 12 with 952 views | pioneer |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 11:18 - Sep 12 by deezel |
although "they want to work" there has to be some commercial viability.
there is a remploy factory next unit to where i work, it closed last month.
the previous year it had a turnover of £69k and made a trading loss, on top of that it received a direct subsidy for staff of just under £500k from the government.
those figures are symptomatic of the majority of remploy units
the factory makes safety wear which is only sold to police authorities, at a time when police authorities are suffering budget cuts they have to buy from remploy when they could get them cheaper elsewhere.
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Yes sure, made in China no doubt, using 8 year old kids in awful working conditions - so lets lay off all the disabled workers Remploy employ - then they will all be on benefits and that will give you something else to moan about - too many disabled who wont work. All so simple isn't it? | | | |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 14:21 - Sep 12 with 912 views | D_Alien |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 18:45 - Sep 11 by MoonyDale |
I know what I saw with my own eyes, I saw drunken fans attempting to and succeeding in climbing over into the already full end, I also saw fans being crushed against closed turnstiles and gates, I never said the police didn't make the situation worse as gates were opened, it riles me no end though that after all these years that the fans that I have no doubt added to the disaster that unfolded have consistently failed to shoulder any of the blame, instead of which they have looked to blame anyone other than themselves in part at least.....Many many people both inside and outside of football know this but are to afraid to speak out, the reports that have been hidden for so long will indeed show that the police have to shoulder a great deal of blame for their part in that day, and my first comment wasn't even aimed at this tragedy...It was aimed at the city of Liverpool itself which comes across as sympathy whores, in fact if a cat was run over they would have a memorial service for it.... |
It seems the clear evidence of drunken Liverpool fans doing exactly as you describe will no longer count, MoonyDale.
But at least today's statement by the prime minister goes a long way to shining a light on corruption within the police, so if any good comes out of it lets hope we'll see less of a swagger in their steps while they're picking up overtime at the Dale and elsewhere in the future. And maybe even a revision of policing at games in general. |  |
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| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 14:37 - Sep 12 with 896 views | Albert_Whitehurst |
Now looking forward to the Heysel inquiry that the Liverpool fans have been clamouring for.....wait a minute...? |  | | |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 16:15 - Sep 12 with 865 views | MoonyDale |
| One of the, darkest days in English football has it reached its final conclusion on 14:21 - Sep 12 by D_Alien |
It seems the clear evidence of drunken Liverpool fans doing exactly as you describe will no longer count, MoonyDale.
But at least today's statement by the prime minister goes a long way to shining a light on corruption within the police, so if any good comes out of it lets hope we'll see less of a swagger in their steps while they're picking up overtime at the Dale and elsewhere in the future. And maybe even a revision of policing at games in general. |
To be honest Dalien I wouldn't have expected any other verdict on the released reports, it matters not that the fans who crashed the gates and turnstiles were the main reasons the gates were opened, if those fans had not done as they did then the disaster that followed would never have taken place, I myself in the past have turned up to ticket games without a ticket, hoping to find one on sale on the day or even just to soak up some of the atmosphere....I have never felt the need to attempt to gain access to the ground by climbing into an already closed end. although as a kid I do remember crawling under the turnstiles at Dale whilst someone went through as I scooted between their legs....Don't remember any full houses at dale though back in those days...... | |
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