| Always crashing in the same car – Column 15:53 - Feb 21 with 14945 views | Northernr |
Simon Dorset's annual thoughts on the latest set of QPR accounts...
 Always crashing in the same car – Column 21st Feb 2024 15:48Our resident financial columnist Simon Dorset is back for his annual analysis of QPR’s accounts, which they season show an FFP-pushing loss of £20m+ and cover the disastrous 2022/23 season which began with Mick Beale in charge.  3
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| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 09:18 - Feb 22 with 2237 views | Antti_Heinola |
Seeing as apparently £5m was offered for Chair in Jan, I think we can safely say a figure in that realm will be incoming when he goes to Turkey in the summer.
I would imagine Eze is on top of a lot of hit lists this summer too, especially if he can get fit for the last few games. |  |
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| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 09:20 - Feb 22 with 2214 views | Hedged |
Thanks to Simon. Appreciate you setting it all out as cleanly and easily digestible as you have.
Points like this are a good time to look back to last years report which ended with:
"QPR are on the edge of the precipice. If the club can manage to extricate themselves from this position without losing their Championship status, either through fielding a drastically weakened team or a points deduction from breaching FFP, it will be an effort worthy of Houdini. This summer is when this needs to be addressed and the club are only too aware of it — I don’t expect it to be pretty"
The club had given itself a mammoth task this season, and it took until the end of the January window for us to really get the side together and cohesive with a proper manager in charge now.
But look at the starting 11 and the bench going from last Saturday. Look at the manner of the performance, and another clean sheet. Not many saw that as a possibility in the summer especially after Watford and Oxford
But we go into this Rotherham game with the chance to set things up for a much more exciting future at this club a realistic possibility now |  | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 09:20 - Feb 22 with 2214 views | enfieldargh |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 09:18 - Feb 22 by Antti_Heinola |
Seeing as apparently £5m was offered for Chair in Jan, I think we can safely say a figure in that realm will be incoming when he goes to Turkey in the summer.
I would imagine Eze is on top of a lot of hit lists this summer too, especially if he can get fit for the last few games. |
Want Eze fit for the Euros and Dykes to get the golden boot |  |
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| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 09:38 - Feb 22 with 2142 views | QPROslo |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 09:18 - Feb 22 by Antti_Heinola |
Seeing as apparently £5m was offered for Chair in Jan, I think we can safely say a figure in that realm will be incoming when he goes to Turkey in the summer.
I would imagine Eze is on top of a lot of hit lists this summer too, especially if he can get fit for the last few games. |
But I don't think this would help us with this season's (23/24) FFP as our Acounting year ends end of May and the transfer window doesnt start until 14 June in the UK, later in Turkey I think. | | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 10:00 - Feb 22 with 2054 views | terryb |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 09:17 - Feb 22 by SimonD |
There is an EFL tariff for breaching FFP:
The penalty for breaching of the 3 season P&S reporting rules is a deduction of 12 points to commence in the season following the breach.
The following number of points shall be deducted from the 12 points
9 points if less than £2.0m
8 points if between £2m and £4m
7 points if between £4m and £6m
6 points if between £6m and £8m
5 points if between £8m and £10m
4 points if between £10m and £12.5m
3 points if between £12.5m and £15m
No deduction if the breach is greater than £15m
Then the balance shall be further reduced if the loss in the final season is less than the season(s) before.
The Guidelines go on to show that a diminishing trend in spending may then be taken into account as demonstrating an intention to comply with the rules. Aggravating and mitigating factors are then available for consideration.
From the more recent breaches, they seem to apply about half of this, presumably on the understanding that the decision is not appealed. |
Thanks Simon.
This information is something that most fans don't take into account when querying the amount of points that clubs are deducted.
As mentioned to you on WhatsApp, I don't recall seeing the table for wages % to income previously. It is frightening to see how the club lost control of this in the last two seasons! One of the reasons that I don't believe our owners have learnt any lessons from the past!
Hopefully, the disallowable cost has incresed (not by a great amount I'm sure) has increased due to the academy being based at our training ground. Every penny helps in our bid to stay within limits this season! | | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 10:21 - Feb 22 with 2008 views | colinallcars |
I'm making up a little graph on my PC to print off and show an Australian mate in the pub pre-match.
So to be absolutely clear, if we do breach this season the punishent would be applied next season. Are the any circs where a deduction could be applied this season ? |  | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 10:33 - Feb 22 with 1960 views | numptydumpty |
So basically it's going to be tight this season, in terms of measuring whether we have breached FFP.
So does that mean if we had based on these 22 / 23 accounts , would we then be liable to a points deduction this term.
This actual seasons accounts when published next year, there is more leeway.
Basically if we survive this season, next season should be fine.
We could spend a bit next season, but could cause problems down the line , if we are bit crap....
Eze needs get in England Squad and play and be the key player in triumphant England and we be quids in !!! |  |
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| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 11:18 - Feb 22 with 1874 views | NorthantsHoop |
Without stating the obvious the whole lot of football finance is a right mess and QPR are just one of many caught in a vortex of debt financing, where income from the actual product just cannot match what is paid out for the resources to run a football club. A game now dominated and run by multi national benefactors, accountants, regulators, lawyers, player agents, overpaid players, TV companies and sponsors. Long gone are the times when it was the local wealthy businessman play thing and the revenue from spectators that generated the running of a club. |  | | |
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| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 12:18 - Feb 22 with 1726 views | kensalriser |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 11:18 - Feb 22 by NorthantsHoop |
Without stating the obvious the whole lot of football finance is a right mess and QPR are just one of many caught in a vortex of debt financing, where income from the actual product just cannot match what is paid out for the resources to run a football club. A game now dominated and run by multi national benefactors, accountants, regulators, lawyers, player agents, overpaid players, TV companies and sponsors. Long gone are the times when it was the local wealthy businessman play thing and the revenue from spectators that generated the running of a club. |
Unsurprisingly it's a microcosm of the current winner takes all iteration of capitalism that governs the global economy - nearly all the wealth accumulates at the very top. |  |
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| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:05 - Feb 22 with 1488 views | QPRConor2000 |
I think if we are looking to cut costs, then the obvious place to start is by looking at moving the academy from being a Cat 2 academy.
I dont personally see the point of us spending £2.5m on this when very little or nobody really comes through.
Surely we are better off moving to being a Cat 4 academy, which is a later stage development model for those between U17 and U21 level, this could mean we can target our resources better towards a smaller pool of players who are more likely to break into the senior team. | | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:07 - Feb 22 with 1482 views | Northernr |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:05 - Feb 22 by QPRConor2000 |
I think if we are looking to cut costs, then the obvious place to start is by looking at moving the academy from being a Cat 2 academy.
I dont personally see the point of us spending £2.5m on this when very little or nobody really comes through.
Surely we are better off moving to being a Cat 4 academy, which is a later stage development model for those between U17 and U21 level, this could mean we can target our resources better towards a smaller pool of players who are more likely to break into the senior team. |
I'm increasingly of the view you're either Cat 1 or there's no point in trying, particularly in London surrounded by rich clubs with Cat 1's themselves with the EPPP regs the way they are.
However, this wouldn't help our FFP situation, as none of the academy outlay counts towards that. | | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:08 - Feb 22 with 1478 views | daveB |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:05 - Feb 22 by QPRConor2000 |
I think if we are looking to cut costs, then the obvious place to start is by looking at moving the academy from being a Cat 2 academy.
I dont personally see the point of us spending £2.5m on this when very little or nobody really comes through.
Surely we are better off moving to being a Cat 4 academy, which is a later stage development model for those between U17 and U21 level, this could mean we can target our resources better towards a smaller pool of players who are more likely to break into the senior team. |
The academy costs don't count towards FFP so would be pointless |  | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:19 - Feb 22 with 1461 views | QPRConor2000 |
The interesting thing about the new training ground is that it can be used as a base for clubs coming over for European competition as well as by international teams.
That will help drive income for the club you'd think as well. | | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:23 - Feb 22 with 1455 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 10:21 - Feb 22 by colinallcars |
I'm making up a little graph on my PC to print off and show an Australian mate in the pub pre-match.
So to be absolutely clear, if we do breach this season the punishent would be applied next season. Are the any circs where a deduction could be applied this season ? |
I asked this question earlier in the thread and received some answers (thanks to Wilkinswatercarrier, Northernr and SimonD).
From what I can gather (happy to be corrected):
(1) Company accounts for the 2022/23 were published this week. If this translates into an FFP breach for the period 2021-23, then a punishment could be metered out this year (albeit applied next season).
(2) EFL clubs have to submit Future Financial Information to the EFL by 31st March 23 (i.e. projected accounts for the 2023/24 season). If this suggests a possible future breach of FFP for the period 2022-24, then the EFL could apply a transfer embargo this summer.
(3) Company accounts for 2023/24 will be published in 2025. If this translates into an actual FFP breach for the period 2022-24 then the club could be punished.
Rinse and repeat. [Post edited 22 Feb 14:39]
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| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:37 - Feb 22 with 1425 views | colinallcars |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:23 - Feb 22 by Benny_the_Ball |
I asked this question earlier in the thread and received some answers (thanks to Wilkinswatercarrier, Northernr and SimonD).
From what I can gather (happy to be corrected):
(1) Company accounts for the 2022/23 were published this week. If this translates into an FFP breach for the period 2021-23, then a punishment could be metered out this year (albeit applied next season).
(2) EFL clubs have to submit Future Financial Information to the EFL by 31st March 23 (i.e. projected accounts for the 2023/24 season). If this suggests a possible future breach of FFP for the period 2022-24, then the EFL could apply a transfer embargo this summer.
(3) Company accounts for 2023/24 will be published in 2025. If this translates into an actual FFP breach for the period 2022-24 then the club could be punished.
Rinse and repeat. [Post edited 22 Feb 14:39]
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Thanks Benny | | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:44 - Feb 22 with 1400 views | Benny_the_Ball |
SimonD, are you able to shed any light on the following:
(1) Are FFP accounts not published?
(2) Is it likely that the owner loans will be converted into equity and, if so, will this have any bearing on FFP calculations?
Thanks | | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:46 - Feb 22 with 1397 views | cpgerber |
Punishment handled out this year, but applied next season?
So if we are in violation THIS season (accounts next year), a potential penalty will only be applied in 25/26 season?
So basically, assuming we are not in the red now, but will be next year, we still have 18 months before a points deduction kicks in.
(I am still quietly comfort the club knows what it is doing and we will be fine) |  | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:58 - Feb 22 with 1363 views | QPRConor2000 |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:46 - Feb 22 by cpgerber |
Punishment handled out this year, but applied next season?
So if we are in violation THIS season (accounts next year), a potential penalty will only be applied in 25/26 season?
So basically, assuming we are not in the red now, but will be next year, we still have 18 months before a points deduction kicks in.
(I am still quietly comfort the club knows what it is doing and we will be fine) |
Tbf if the club was in trouble, it would be all over the news wouldnt it?
Also, if we did breach FFP, we'd wouldnt have signed Andersen, Frey, Hodge and Hayden.
Im pretty confident given the actions the club have taken we are just within FFP rules. | | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 15:00 - Feb 22 with 1361 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:46 - Feb 22 by cpgerber |
Punishment handled out this year, but applied next season?
So if we are in violation THIS season (accounts next year), a potential penalty will only be applied in 25/26 season?
So basically, assuming we are not in the red now, but will be next year, we still have 18 months before a points deduction kicks in.
(I am still quietly comfort the club knows what it is doing and we will be fine) |
"Punishment handled out this year, but applied next season?"
Yes, according to SimonD's earlier input (see bottom of page 1).
"So if we are in violation THIS season (accounts next year), a potential penalty will only be applied in 25/26 season?"
On face value yes but this is why I asked the question about the impact of revealing any potential future breach in the Future Financial Information.
"(I am still quietly comfort the club knows what it is doing and we will be fine)"
Given the January arrivals, sponsorship deals, and investment on infrastructure, I'm also quietly confident. However, the figures are close and the board does have form so I say this with fingers and toes crossed.
Time will tell. [Post edited 22 Feb 15:00]
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| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 15:14 - Feb 22 with 1343 views | SimonD |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:07 - Feb 22 by Northernr |
I'm increasingly of the view you're either Cat 1 or there's no point in trying, particularly in London surrounded by rich clubs with Cat 1's themselves with the EPPP regs the way they are.
However, this wouldn't help our FFP situation, as none of the academy outlay counts towards that. |
Cat 1 doesn't protect you from having your bright young stars taken, it just increases the compensation.
The last figures I've seen are:
For each year in an academy between the ages of 9 and 11: £3k
For each year in a Cat 3 academy between the ages of 12 and 16: £12.5k
For each year in a Cat 2 academy between the ages of 12 and 16: £25k
For each year in a Cat 1 academy between the ages of 12 and 16: £40k
There are additional payments based on appearances up to £1.3m (if a player makes 100 Premier League appearances)
For a player poached between the ages of 12 and 16, 20% of the next transfer fee if the player is sold before they are 24.
Cat 1 does not enable unfashionable clubs with a training facility on the flight path into Heathrow to keep hold of their starlets. [Post edited 22 Feb 15:36]
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| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 15:18 - Feb 22 with 1337 views | SimonD |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:44 - Feb 22 by Benny_the_Ball |
SimonD, are you able to shed any light on the following:
(1) Are FFP accounts not published?
(2) Is it likely that the owner loans will be converted into equity and, if so, will this have any bearing on FFP calculations?
Thanks |
No and no.
FFP submissions are not published, although occasionally snippets emerge when a club goes to tribunal.
Converting loans to equity is purely a balance sheet transaction, it does not affect the profit and loss. Kieran Maguire usually describes it as swapping a loan that will never be repaid for worthless shares. | | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 15:28 - Feb 22 with 1311 views | SimonD |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:23 - Feb 22 by Benny_the_Ball |
I asked this question earlier in the thread and received some answers (thanks to Wilkinswatercarrier, Northernr and SimonD).
From what I can gather (happy to be corrected):
(1) Company accounts for the 2022/23 were published this week. If this translates into an FFP breach for the period 2021-23, then a punishment could be metered out this year (albeit applied next season).
(2) EFL clubs have to submit Future Financial Information to the EFL by 31st March 23 (i.e. projected accounts for the 2023/24 season). If this suggests a possible future breach of FFP for the period 2022-24, then the EFL could apply a transfer embargo this summer.
(3) Company accounts for 2023/24 will be published in 2025. If this translates into an actual FFP breach for the period 2022-24 then the club could be punished.
Rinse and repeat. [Post edited 22 Feb 14:39]
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I got my date wrong.
Both the audited accounts and FFI have to be submitted by March 1st. | | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 15:40 - Feb 22 with 1282 views | francisbowles |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 14:46 - Feb 22 by cpgerber |
Punishment handled out this year, but applied next season?
So if we are in violation THIS season (accounts next year), a potential penalty will only be applied in 25/26 season?
So basically, assuming we are not in the red now, but will be next year, we still have 18 months before a points deduction kicks in.
(I am still quietly comfort the club knows what it is doing and we will be fine) |
'the season following the breach'
So IF the breach is 23/24 then surely the points deduction sanction is applied in 24/25, albeit late in the season after the accounts have been published. | | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 16:25 - Feb 22 with 1206 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 15:40 - Feb 22 by francisbowles |
'the season following the breach'
So IF the breach is 23/24 then surely the points deduction sanction is applied in 24/25, albeit late in the season after the accounts have been published. |
Good point however accounts are published 1 year in arrears. 2023/24 accounts will be reported in 2025.
SimonD, can you clarify this please:
On page 1 you stated "The penalty for breaching of the 3 season P&S reporting rules is a deduction of points to commence in the season following the breach."
Do you mean the season following the point at which the breach is determined or the season after the period being reported on?
e.g..
If in Spring 2025 QPR are found to have breached FFP for the period 2022-24, is any points deduction applied for the 2025/26 season or immediately to the 2024/25 season in progress? | | | |
| Always crashing in the same car – Column on 16:35 - Feb 22 with 1181 views | cpgerber |
They said ‘he’s definitely dead now’
I turned around, landed on my wheels and said ‘what were you worried about?’ | | | |
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