| Buying more shares? 17:16 - Jan 3 with 13614 views | 49thseason |
Since the BoD is notoriously backwards at coming forwards in terms of actually attempting to sell shares in the club to mere supporters, is it time to nail our colours to the mast and declare our intentions to buy (or perhaps reasons for not buying other than the obvious lack of brass) some of the 50,000 shares recently made available?
Personally I suppose I am going to have to tell SWMBO (she who must be obeyed) that I intend to get another 100.. not a big dent in the total but at least a small effort....and perhaps making a difference when the bills have to be paid
Anyone else?
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| Buying more shares? on 17:25 - Jan 3 with 9172 views | WirralDale |
I'm thinking along the same lines ... |  | | |
| Buying more shares? on 17:33 - Jan 3 with 9142 views | DaleyBrent |
| Buying more shares? on 17:25 - Jan 3 by WirralDale |
I'm thinking along the same lines ... |
Likewise...
Those who can should consider. Never has it been more needed! |  | | |
| Buying more shares? on 17:40 - Jan 3 with 9124 views | D_Alien |
It's a fair question, and i'll be perfectly honest in saying i'm undecided
The reason for that is twofold. First, i've already pointed out that the 50000 share sale is intended to help see the club through to the end of the season. If we sell either Sinclair, Nevett, or anyone else in January that would pretty much achieve the same objective, therefore i'm waiting to see what happens
The second reason is probably more important. Reaching the end of the season (without administration) will only be of use if the board can find the right investors, and if a condition of investing is to gain a majority shareholding then the remaining shareholdings will become even less significant than they are now
I'm quite happy to hear counter-arguments, and i may well buy another 100 in the end anyway, but right now i'm not itching to deplete my finances, although i appreciate that's exactly what SG and others have been doing |  |
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| Buying more shares? on 18:00 - Jan 3 with 9067 views | scooby |
Personally, in this financial environment, this is open only to those with disposable income and it is effectively writing off any spend as there is no return. The valuation is also too high (no doubt part of the blocker for new investors). It’s also adding to the complexity of adding more smaller shareholders which is off putting to an investor and understandably so.
Yes I get that this an attempt to help keep the club afloat, any funds help but I see no communication on how this will help fill a hole, the size of the hole, or what is really needed to stop us going bust if that is really where we are headed (the messages from the agm are mixed, started by saying we’re reasonably ok financially, then later comments in the meeting saying heading to liquidation - no clear understanding anywhere!)
My other problem is that I have no trust in the board or specifically SG, the lack of ownership or honesty, the lack of strategy, the constant mixed up messages and potential lying to all and sundry to push a message that SG wants to put across. As a shareholder I don’t feel SG will allow your voice to be heard, he doesn’t care what we think? he’s driven purely by getting his money back and is running the club down to the bone to force a sale to anyone who offers the money he wants - whoever they are. He’s a big turn off for me, and the final part of the reason I won’t buy any.
That being said, I hold those who want to spend money on shares in a high regard, and suspect you are a more balanced person than I am and you will be applauded by me. | | | |
| Buying more shares? on 18:09 - Jan 3 with 9016 views | 442Dale |
The routes forward, with subsequent individual and collective decision making, needs focus. For that to happen we need to be aware of what happens in various scenarios at different stages.
For that to happen, there needs to be absolute clarity what no outside investment by the end of this month/the next/end of the season means. And apologies if it’s just me who wasn’t completely aware of that after the communications at & after the AGM.
The Trust’s squad builder project may well be the perfect direction for fans to help Jim McNulty and his players… but what would putting into that rather than buying shares mean for the club as a whole? Their efforts are hamstrung from the start, whilst acknowledging how quickly they’re moving this forward.
Again, the doubt around establishing exactly where we are is almost as big as a problem as the lack of finance itself. It should not have been allowed to meander when raised eight months ago. Or four months ago. Or two months ago.
Tackle this as a priority. Remove debate, assumption and doubt. There’s enough ice on deck to get the skates out. |  |
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| Buying more shares? on 18:53 - Jan 3 with 8910 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Buying more shares? on 18:09 - Jan 3 by 442Dale |
The routes forward, with subsequent individual and collective decision making, needs focus. For that to happen we need to be aware of what happens in various scenarios at different stages.
For that to happen, there needs to be absolute clarity what no outside investment by the end of this month/the next/end of the season means. And apologies if it’s just me who wasn’t completely aware of that after the communications at & after the AGM.
The Trust’s squad builder project may well be the perfect direction for fans to help Jim McNulty and his players… but what would putting into that rather than buying shares mean for the club as a whole? Their efforts are hamstrung from the start, whilst acknowledging how quickly they’re moving this forward.
Again, the doubt around establishing exactly where we are is almost as big as a problem as the lack of finance itself. It should not have been allowed to meander when raised eight months ago. Or four months ago. Or two months ago.
Tackle this as a priority. Remove debate, assumption and doubt. There’s enough ice on deck to get the skates out. |
We should all probably stop using the word "investment" then. "Donation" would be a better word.
What you want to know is how much we lose running the club as it is?
Eight years of data, in published accounts and letters from the last three Chairman says about £1.2m a year without a one off so £100,000 a month as an operating business.
We know from Andrew Kelly the issues stated in 2017/18:
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2020/june/statement--andrew-kelly/
Let's say my estimate needs a range so I'll guess between £50,000 to £150,000 a month depending on factors like the number of home games.
So £100,000 to £300,000 needed to survive January and February, assuming no other funding source.
Sell George Nevett, Tyrese Sinclair or Oscar Kelly in January and that is the new few months dealt with.
Then there will need to be £100,000 to £300,000 to find for March and April.
There's no income forecastable past 20th April (last game) until late July 2024, three months there - so another £150,000 and £450,000 for those three months.
Hope that helps.
The next question should be who is expected to funds the losses - shareholders, customers or fans or do we take some proper and radical measures to stop losing £1.2m without one offs.
Things like :
* should we go part time? Wealdstone are 4 points below us with 3 games in hand with less infrastructure so it can be done.
* should we close a physical club shop and only have a website? Rochdale Hornets do this.
* do we need a printed colour programme every week or just a printed teamsheet?
* do we bite the bullet and put all fans in the Wilbutts and have much lower costs?
* do we close the Academy?
There will be a lot of reliance from members and fans on the Trust as the club's biggest shareholder to guide the debate and the very difficult choices to be made. |  |
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| Buying more shares? on 19:42 - Jan 3 with 8798 views | 442Dale |
| Buying more shares? on 18:53 - Jan 3 by RAFCBLUE |
We should all probably stop using the word "investment" then. "Donation" would be a better word.
What you want to know is how much we lose running the club as it is?
Eight years of data, in published accounts and letters from the last three Chairman says about £1.2m a year without a one off so £100,000 a month as an operating business.
We know from Andrew Kelly the issues stated in 2017/18:
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2020/june/statement--andrew-kelly/
Let's say my estimate needs a range so I'll guess between £50,000 to £150,000 a month depending on factors like the number of home games.
So £100,000 to £300,000 needed to survive January and February, assuming no other funding source.
Sell George Nevett, Tyrese Sinclair or Oscar Kelly in January and that is the new few months dealt with.
Then there will need to be £100,000 to £300,000 to find for March and April.
There's no income forecastable past 20th April (last game) until late July 2024, three months there - so another £150,000 and £450,000 for those three months.
Hope that helps.
The next question should be who is expected to funds the losses - shareholders, customers or fans or do we take some proper and radical measures to stop losing £1.2m without one offs.
Things like :
* should we go part time? Wealdstone are 4 points below us with 3 games in hand with less infrastructure so it can be done.
* should we close a physical club shop and only have a website? Rochdale Hornets do this.
* do we need a printed colour programme every week or just a printed teamsheet?
* do we bite the bullet and put all fans in the Wilbutts and have much lower costs?
* do we close the Academy?
There will be a lot of reliance from members and fans on the Trust as the club's biggest shareholder to guide the debate and the very difficult choices to be made. |
Strange, lots of those questions were discussed along with suggestions around providing better income streams at the fans meetings eight months ago. Strange, as we’ve yet to see these meetings properly capitalised on with a visible structure around where fans can play a part - even though plenty of the ideas and projects mentioned by fans would have seen the club save money and make money. Strange, as I’ve yet to see anyone provide a clear answer as to what will happen at various stages in the future without outside investment and there’s an obvious doubt amongst many - see the posts previously after the AGM.
Where do you feel the club has gone wrong over the last two and a half years in their engagement with the Trust and supporters to have done more to avoid the place we are at present? As part of this answer, what should they do immediately to capitalise on the skills and commitment within the fanbase right now which would help reduce those losses?
Establishing the answers to that is something that would actually help.
Oh, and why would anyone think we might sell Oscar Kelly?! | |
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| Buying more shares? on 19:49 - Jan 3 with 8769 views | Sandyman |
It's a dilemma what to do. The Chairman and one other director have recently put big loans in to keep the club going. From what was said at the AGM, they believe that RAFC can sell the shares available to a large investor and recoup their loans. On the other hand, remarks about how the club can't keep going without such investment make me think any spare cash available to put into shares is the equivalent of flushing it down the toilet given the possible doomsday scenario.
As many on here have said, if we had a clear plan / vision of how RAFC is going to be managed off the field in such a turbulent financial environment, that would help in many ways, especially where further share purchases by individuals are concerned. We don't have that. [Post edited 3 Jan 19:51]
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| Buying more shares? on 20:03 - Jan 3 with 8722 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Buying more shares? on 19:42 - Jan 3 by 442Dale |
Strange, lots of those questions were discussed along with suggestions around providing better income streams at the fans meetings eight months ago. Strange, as we’ve yet to see these meetings properly capitalised on with a visible structure around where fans can play a part - even though plenty of the ideas and projects mentioned by fans would have seen the club save money and make money. Strange, as I’ve yet to see anyone provide a clear answer as to what will happen at various stages in the future without outside investment and there’s an obvious doubt amongst many - see the posts previously after the AGM.
Where do you feel the club has gone wrong over the last two and a half years in their engagement with the Trust and supporters to have done more to avoid the place we are at present? As part of this answer, what should they do immediately to capitalise on the skills and commitment within the fanbase right now which would help reduce those losses?
Establishing the answers to that is something that would actually help.
Oh, and why would anyone think we might sell Oscar Kelly?! |
Why is Oscar Kelly valuable in this transfer window?
* Made his debut aged 15 in the FA Cup
* Did really well in the Northern Ireland under 16's - P4 Scored 2
* Played in the Victory Shield and for the Northern Ireland under 17's - P3
Most of the Northern Ireland youth squads are at bigger clubs than Rochdale.
A six figure bid from a bigger club plus future add ons would prize him away IMO and he'll have a better chance of making it in the game with a club that is above National League level.
I'm waiting for you to stand for Trust on a manifesto of getting the points you continue to make heard and when you do I and other will vote positively for you.
We'll also be looking for a successor for Murray as the Trust's rep on the clubs Board - you could do a lot of good! | |
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| Buying more shares? on 20:05 - Jan 3 with 8710 views | TVOS1907 |
| Buying more shares? on 20:03 - Jan 3 by RAFCBLUE |
Why is Oscar Kelly valuable in this transfer window?
* Made his debut aged 15 in the FA Cup
* Did really well in the Northern Ireland under 16's - P4 Scored 2
* Played in the Victory Shield and for the Northern Ireland under 17's - P3
Most of the Northern Ireland youth squads are at bigger clubs than Rochdale.
A six figure bid from a bigger club plus future add ons would prize him away IMO and he'll have a better chance of making it in the game with a club that is above National League level.
I'm waiting for you to stand for Trust on a manifesto of getting the points you continue to make heard and when you do I and other will vote positively for you.
We'll also be looking for a successor for Murray as the Trust's rep on the clubs Board - you could do a lot of good! |
Why hasn't he figured in ANY first team squad this season, in particular one where we had only three subs?
Oscar Kelly, not 442. [Post edited 3 Jan 20:07]
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| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Buying more shares? on 20:09 - Jan 3 with 8688 views | blackdogblue |
| Buying more shares? on 18:53 - Jan 3 by RAFCBLUE |
We should all probably stop using the word "investment" then. "Donation" would be a better word.
What you want to know is how much we lose running the club as it is?
Eight years of data, in published accounts and letters from the last three Chairman says about £1.2m a year without a one off so £100,000 a month as an operating business.
We know from Andrew Kelly the issues stated in 2017/18:
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2020/june/statement--andrew-kelly/
Let's say my estimate needs a range so I'll guess between £50,000 to £150,000 a month depending on factors like the number of home games.
So £100,000 to £300,000 needed to survive January and February, assuming no other funding source.
Sell George Nevett, Tyrese Sinclair or Oscar Kelly in January and that is the new few months dealt with.
Then there will need to be £100,000 to £300,000 to find for March and April.
There's no income forecastable past 20th April (last game) until late July 2024, three months there - so another £150,000 and £450,000 for those three months.
Hope that helps.
The next question should be who is expected to funds the losses - shareholders, customers or fans or do we take some proper and radical measures to stop losing £1.2m without one offs.
Things like :
* should we go part time? Wealdstone are 4 points below us with 3 games in hand with less infrastructure so it can be done.
* should we close a physical club shop and only have a website? Rochdale Hornets do this.
* do we need a printed colour programme every week or just a printed teamsheet?
* do we bite the bullet and put all fans in the Wilbutts and have much lower costs?
* do we close the Academy?
There will be a lot of reliance from members and fans on the Trust as the club's biggest shareholder to guide the debate and the very difficult choices to be made. |
You trying to hiss TVOS off 😎.
In all honesty the shares are a “donation”… we are not Apple or a FTSE listed company..
Shares are worth what someone wants to trade with & more than a nice certificate on the wall.. short term low cash injection when the BOD are desperate to sell / get investment…
Won’t pay the wage bill discussing it on the forum.. 50k… how many businesses have been contacted in the borough who have more money than we have?? .. if “we”or the Trust were a charity they could claim Tax relief buying some.. |  |
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| Buying more shares? on 20:16 - Jan 3 with 8665 views | sxdale |
| Buying more shares? on 19:49 - Jan 3 by Sandyman |
It's a dilemma what to do. The Chairman and one other director have recently put big loans in to keep the club going. From what was said at the AGM, they believe that RAFC can sell the shares available to a large investor and recoup their loans. On the other hand, remarks about how the club can't keep going without such investment make me think any spare cash available to put into shares is the equivalent of flushing it down the toilet given the possible doomsday scenario.
As many on here have said, if we had a clear plan / vision of how RAFC is going to be managed off the field in such a turbulent financial environment, that would help in many ways, especially where further share purchases by individuals are concerned. We don't have that. [Post edited 3 Jan 19:51]
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Have the chairman and the board actually put loans in? I thought the loan proposal was refused by the league and the chairman had made a donation.
This makes me wonder if the chairman put in an additional say £100k into the club (don't know where I'm getting that figure from but sure I've heard it mentioned) for the continued running of the club, then why would you not take an additional 50,000 Ish shares?
This would surely be a better way of getting his money back if an investor did turn up, also could he negotiate the sale himself without having to get it through the rest of the shareholders?
Or have been listening to too many episodes of the price of football? | | | |
| Buying more shares? on 20:17 - Jan 3 with 8662 views | blackdogblue |
More realistic?
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| Buying more shares? on 20:17 - Jan 3 with 8653 views | 442Dale |
| Buying more shares? on 20:03 - Jan 3 by RAFCBLUE |
Why is Oscar Kelly valuable in this transfer window?
* Made his debut aged 15 in the FA Cup
* Did really well in the Northern Ireland under 16's - P4 Scored 2
* Played in the Victory Shield and for the Northern Ireland under 17's - P3
Most of the Northern Ireland youth squads are at bigger clubs than Rochdale.
A six figure bid from a bigger club plus future add ons would prize him away IMO and he'll have a better chance of making it in the game with a club that is above National League level.
I'm waiting for you to stand for Trust on a manifesto of getting the points you continue to make heard and when you do I and other will vote positively for you.
We'll also be looking for a successor for Murray as the Trust's rep on the clubs Board - you could do a lot of good! |
I have discussed with members of the Trust board and many of their members and other supporters about my previous time on the board and future work with them. If anyone wishes to hear that, not that they would be that interested, I’m always about in the Ratcliffe before games. Not expecting the line to be long!
As for the role of the Trust rep on the board in general, many are looking forward to the outcome of the work currently being done around that and around a new MOU.
If possible, as I’ve addressed those areas, what are your opinions on the questions raised in my post that weren’t about a player who can’t even make the first team squad. (Not saying that this points about him aren’t valid, but it was a bit left field for most to think about him being sold!) | |
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| Buying more shares? on 20:23 - Jan 3 with 8629 views | 442Dale |
| Buying more shares? on 20:05 - Jan 3 by TVOS1907 |
Why hasn't he figured in ANY first team squad this season, in particular one where we had only three subs?
Oscar Kelly, not 442. [Post edited 3 Jan 20:07]
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Think how much the club could get by selling me to Man U to talk utterly irrelevant nonsense about all their sock choices with Sir Alex and the Glazers…
All problems solved in an instant. Football would no longer be broken.
The Sock Narrative Era would begin. | |
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| Buying more shares? on 20:31 - Jan 3 with 8604 views | D_Alien |
| Buying more shares? on 20:23 - Jan 3 by 442Dale |
Think how much the club could get by selling me to Man U to talk utterly irrelevant nonsense about all their sock choices with Sir Alex and the Glazers…
All problems solved in an instant. Football would no longer be broken.
The Sock Narrative Era would begin. |
You could double up as their rep on the New York Sock Exchange | |
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| Buying more shares? on 20:39 - Jan 3 with 8563 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Buying more shares? on 20:05 - Jan 3 by TVOS1907 |
Why hasn't he figured in ANY first team squad this season, in particular one where we had only three subs?
Oscar Kelly, not 442. [Post edited 3 Jan 20:07]
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You'd have to ask Jim McNulty, TVOS as he picks the team.
What the club have told us is that Oscar has been away with Northern Ireland in late 2023.
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2023/october/oscarkellyinternationalcallup_oc
Oscar played in that tournament. Northern Ireland qualified for the final stages in March 2024.
Perhaps he's injured? Perhaps not in form? Perhaps being wrapped in cotton wool for the transfer window?
Kelly will be looking at his teammates like Braiden Graham (reportedly off to Everton) or Cole Brannigan (in the Aston Villa academy) and comparing what Rochdale offers him. | |
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| Buying more shares? on 20:47 - Jan 3 with 8531 views | TVOS1907 |
| Buying more shares? on 20:39 - Jan 3 by RAFCBLUE |
You'd have to ask Jim McNulty, TVOS as he picks the team.
What the club have told us is that Oscar has been away with Northern Ireland in late 2023.
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2023/october/oscarkellyinternationalcallup_oc
Oscar played in that tournament. Northern Ireland qualified for the final stages in March 2024.
Perhaps he's injured? Perhaps not in form? Perhaps being wrapped in cotton wool for the transfer window?
Kelly will be looking at his teammates like Braiden Graham (reportedly off to Everton) or Cole Brannigan (in the Aston Villa academy) and comparing what Rochdale offers him. |
I've never spoken to Jimmy McNulty, so he might find it a bit strange if I made his acquaintance in such a way.
I'm sure you've spoken to him, though, so maybe you could ask him next time we're playing down south.
By the way, in case you missed it when I mentioned it previously, when you reply to a post, there's no need to mention the person you're replying to. It's a waste of typing. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Buying more shares? on 20:54 - Jan 3 with 8481 views | 49thseason |
| Buying more shares? on 20:39 - Jan 3 by RAFCBLUE |
You'd have to ask Jim McNulty, TVOS as he picks the team.
What the club have told us is that Oscar has been away with Northern Ireland in late 2023.
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2023/october/oscarkellyinternationalcallup_oc
Oscar played in that tournament. Northern Ireland qualified for the final stages in March 2024.
Perhaps he's injured? Perhaps not in form? Perhaps being wrapped in cotton wool for the transfer window?
Kelly will be looking at his teammates like Braiden Graham (reportedly off to Everton) or Cole Brannigan (in the Aston Villa academy) and comparing what Rochdale offers him. |
isn't there some sort of "fixed fee" system for lads under 21 in academies or some such if they don't have 1st team appearances? If so we may well end up with peanuts for all the work that has gone into him so far. | | | |
| Buying more shares? on 21:13 - Jan 3 with 8413 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Buying more shares? on 20:54 - Jan 3 by 49thseason |
isn't there some sort of "fixed fee" system for lads under 21 in academies or some such if they don't have 1st team appearances? If so we may well end up with peanuts for all the work that has gone into him so far. |
There is supposed to be.
However the reality is it is a difficult world when these are young lads with the clubs and parents having education responsibilities a good offer of money and a good school will turn heads.
The Premier League clubs have proven education methods and money which is a difficult thing to turn down.
Most good young players now come via a Premier League academy. Those places work now selling players down the pyramid and covering their monthly costs by getting Championship and lower clubs to pay some or all of the wages.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0gm2hfy
This was a piece on Charlie Adam who was at the time of the interview the loan manger at Burnley. Charlie Adam is now the manager of Burnley.
Football at the top level is now just moneyball. [Post edited 3 Jan 21:36]
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| Buying more shares? on 21:26 - Jan 3 with 8376 views | TVOS1907 |
| Buying more shares? on 21:13 - Jan 3 by RAFCBLUE |
There is supposed to be.
However the reality is it is a difficult world when these are young lads with the clubs and parents having education responsibilities a good offer of money and a good school will turn heads.
The Premier League clubs have proven education methods and money which is a difficult thing to turn down.
Most good young players now come via a Premier League academy. Those places work now selling players down the pyramid and covering their monthly costs by getting Championship and lower clubs to pay some or all of the wages.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0gm2hfy
This was a piece on Charlie Adam who was at the time of the interview the loan manger at Burnley. Charlie Adam is now the manager of Burnley.
Football at the top level is now just moneyball. [Post edited 3 Jan 21:36]
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That should be 'was loan manager at Burnley', as Charlie Adam is now Fleetwood's first team manager.
Hope that helps. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Buying more shares? on 21:26 - Jan 3 with 8368 views | 442Dale |
Charlie Adam is now Fleetwood manager.
Bingo card nearly full. | |
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| Buying more shares? on 21:34 - Jan 3 with 8343 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Buying more shares? on 21:26 - Jan 3 by TVOS1907 |
That should be 'was loan manager at Burnley', as Charlie Adam is now Fleetwood's first team manager.
Hope that helps. |
Thanks TVOS. | |
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| Buying more shares? on 21:45 - Jan 3 with 8299 views | TVOS1907 |
| Buying more shares? on 21:34 - Jan 3 by RAFCBLUE |
Thanks TVOS. |
No problem.
Football fans tend to know these things. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Buying more shares? on 22:19 - Jan 3 with 8236 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Buying more shares? on 21:45 - Jan 3 by TVOS1907 |
No problem.
Football fans tend to know these things. |
Lets hope lots of these knowledgeable football fans like you congregate here to help Jim McNulty on Saturday:
https://rb.gy/mbfsha | |
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