Forum | Unfair dismissal? by Juzzie

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Unfair dismissal? 17:25 - Jun 7 with 9404 views

Long story short, my missus has been having a long running battle with her company (large well known global company) mainly over the fact she can only do a certain shift pattern due to having to leave at a certain time (around 5pm) to pick our kids up from the child minder. They have refused to accommodate.

She's never looked to be doing less hours, just the shift pattern that starts early and ends early rather than late start>late finish.

It's been going on for ages and I've just found out she's being dismissed for stealing company property.... apple juice.

We'll speak more when she gets home but surely this is absolutely bonkers???

Unfair dismissal? on 15:17 - Jun 8 with 2363 views

paulhoop2

You have to be a member of a union for a a specific time before engaging them
Legal wise. I am a union rep and this seems to me a case you can take further even without a union. Employers must offer flexible working as an option or at least consider and if there is a child involved that you care for then they have a legal
Responsibility to allow you reasonable time to collect said child. Don’t have to be paid but time must be allowed - any further help please reach out

Poll:

Now it’s slightly clearer cut who do you want as manager ?

Unfair dismissal? on 15:47 - Jun 8 with 2327 views

Boston

I have a hands off policy with employees, they fck up, we cut off a hand.

Poll:

Thank God The Seaons Over.

Unfair dismissal? on 15:57 - Jun 8 with 2320 views

joe90

Unfair dismissal? on 15:17 - Jun 8 by paulhoop2

Employers do not have to offer flexible working.

Employees have the right to make a request for flexible working and the request must be considered by the employee, but that does not mean they have to accept the request.

Time off for dependants is different to a flexible working request. Employed staff are legally allowed to take this time but there is no legally defined period of entitlement or legal obligation for the employer to pay for the time off.

Juzzie's wife needs to get the companies policies.

Unfair dismissal? on 16:37 - Jun 8 with 2275 views

BazzaInTheLoft

Unfair dismissal? on 15:00 - Jun 8 by thame_hoops
Goodness me. EDIT- Why are you always so aggressive? [Post edited 8 Jun 2023 15:06]

I was a Union rep for a long time, I’ve seen people attempt suicide, lose houses, and end marriages over hostility from companies. I’ve seen enough broken hearts at tribunals to know that the system favours employers, even when the courts find in favour of the employee. I may be wrong but I think the average payout on the rare occasions they win is 6 months salary. Fck all basically.

So when I see a company director call his workers morons it’s gets my goat. Don’t call me aggressive if you are happy to let contempt for those that make you money and feed your kids spill so freely from your mouth.

It has long been proven, by the UN, the EU, the WHO, and even members of this Conservative government that UK workers have the most restricted rights in the industrialised world. Sorry if that was too aggressive for you and hurts your delicate sensibilities.

[Post edited 8 Jun 2023 16:58]

Unfair dismissal? on 16:37 - Jun 8 with 2275 views

81A

The other key issues here are precedent and proportionality. Has anyone else requested flexible working, were the circumstances similar and how did the employer respond ? By proportionality I mean instant dismissal for apple juice ? Really ? What does her code of conduct/contract say or is it just so obviously clear that said juice was a legitimate business expense ?

Unfair dismissal? on 17:53 - Jun 8 with 2184 views

thame_hoops

Unfair dismissal? on 16:37 - Jun 8 by BazzaInTheLoft

[Post edited 8 Jun 2023 16:58]

Oh stop and have a day off. You know the exact context of my post. Silly man

Unfair dismissal? on 20:59 - Jun 8 with 2061 views

Boston

Unfair dismissal? on 16:37 - Jun 8 by BazzaInTheLoft

[Post edited 8 Jun 2023 16:58]

I can only hope that your two employees read this board and unionise as quickly as possible.

Poll:

Thank God The Seaons Over.

Unfair dismissal? on 21:25 - Jun 8 with 2033 views

EastLondonR

I previously was Ops Manager of an Insurance company so have had some tribunal experience. Totally agree with Joe90. Employers do not have to offer or agree flexible working if there are good business needs.
Generally it would cost us £10k to go to a tribunal and as previously said by Baz 6 months salary is more or less the going rate if you employee wins.

Key things Tribunals look at are did the business follow their policy and procedures and going straight to instant dismissal won't stand up in my opinion. The company should have a disciplinary procedure and if they did not follow it they will lose regardless what the employee is alleged to have done.
Best of luck.

[Post edited 8 Jun 2023 21:27]

Unfair dismissal? on 21:26 - Jun 8 with 2024 views

Juzzie

A further twist today…… apparently the manager told my missus’ (ex) colleagues about what happened yesterday and that’s its ok to drink the apple juice but that my missus had hid it.

No drink was ever hidden and that’s not what was said yesterday, it was made clear the drinks are for clients and not staff, no mention at all of anything being hidden. Just hope one of these colleagues (one of which is having similar shift/child minder issues) is willing to act as a witness to this.

My missus spoke to the union today (she’s been a member for quite a few years) and is listing all these things and will start taking further steps tomorrow.

P.s. please all be nice to each other.

Unfair dismissal? on 21:49 - Jun 8 with 1996 views

Boston

Surreal thread. Have this mental pic of Mrs Juzzie with a juice box, straw and all, standing in front of some bewigged relic at the Old Bailey and he's sentenced her for transportation to Tasmania.

Poll:

Thank God The Seaons Over.

Unfair dismissal? on 22:05 - Jun 8 with 1976 views

SimplyNico

I think you should actually start by looking at your household insurance policy. Many of these have legal expenses insurance and if they do, it will cover the cost of a Tribunal claim.

Next up, some basic facts. An unfair dismissal claim is actually relatively easy to get off the ground. In order to present any Employment Tribunal claim (the ET is the appropriate forum for an unfair dismissal claim), as has already been said, your wife would have to go through ACAS Early Conciliation. There is a form on the ACAS website. It is free to do. It is unlikely to result in anything because most employers will want to see how serious a putative claimant is - by that, I mean they want the claim to be issued (there is no fee for issuing proceedings).

Issuing a claim is also relatively easy. The ET1 claim form is available on line. All a claimant has to do is state that s/he was an employee, that they were dismissed by their employer and that they had two or more years’ continuous employment.

It is then up to the employer to show that they had a fair reason for dismissal (there are five, one is conduct) and that the employer followed a reasonable process in relation to the reason stated. In connection with conduct, the ACAS Code of Practice on disciplinary and grievance procedures requires that there has to be an investigation which provides evidence of misconduct. There then has to be a disciplinary hearing which must determine the case on the balance of probability and a right of appeal. If the employer does not comply with the ACAS Code, the dismissal would be procedurally unfair. Compensation (which is capped at the lower of 52 weeks’ basic pay or approximately £105k can be increased by up to 25%.

Now the bad news. The Tribunal system is administratively broken. It is taking, on average, 49 weeks to get to a directions hearing (that is, setting out the case timetable). To then get a three day listing for a substantive unfair dismissal hearing is in most cases another year on.

Further, Tribunal judgements are now in the public domain online. So it is possible to see both why an employee had been dismissed and that they have sued their former employer. It paints a picture of the employee.

You have not said what procedure was followed. Or what was alleged in relation to the juice - was it a case of apple juice or a glass of it.

Most cases that are issued settle. There are any number of reasons for it - cost is one of them. The ET is a nil cost jurisdiction, so each side pays their own costs (which is why you want to look at legal expenses insurance). If you do try and run the case, it is not uncommon for the costs to equal or exceed the compensation.

Hope that helps, good luck.

Unfair dismissal? on 22:35 - Jun 8 with 1912 views

Juzzie

Thanks Nico.

FYI, it was one carton (1lite size).

There was a procedure (bit lengthy to go on here) but I’m not experienced enough to know if it was followed correctly or not. That will become more clearer I guess as it progresses.

[Post edited 8 Jun 2023 22:41]

Unfair dismissal? on 22:46 - Jun 8 with 1875 views

SimplyNico

Unfair dismissal? on 22:35 - Jun 8 by Juzzie
Thanks Nico. FYI, it was one carton (1lite size). There was a procedure (bit lengthy to go on here) but I’m not experienced enough to know if it was followed correctly or not. That will become more clearer I guess as it progresses. [Post edited 8 Jun 2023 22:41]

Well, I can see a Tribunal saying that is substantively and possibly procedurally unfair (depending on process followed).

It is possible the employer may have gone with that as a pretext to get rid of a difficult employee. You might also want to consider indirect sex discrimination if the reason for the flexible working request was childcare related. Rejection out of hand in relation to childcare is not a good idea - the case law on that goes back to the mid 1980s - Home Office v Holmes. The advantage with indirect sex discrimination is that there is no cap on compensation (it is the whole loss) and a claimant can claim injury to feelings compensation too. Argue both.

Unfair dismissal? on 00:40 - Jun 9 with 1805 views

Bedford_R

Can't say much specific on this subject due to 3 NDA's I have signed.

Suffice it to say that one company I worked for got rid of a bunch of us without following employment law so a class action was bought and I bought an individual case against the same employer for a different aspect of their wrong doing and I won both cases. I was in a union at that time so this helped.

Later in my career another employer got rid of me for spurious reasons. Little did they know that I had the experience of my previous employer so I contacted the lawyers that represented me in that case and got them on this new case. The result of that was that the employer offered compensation that was tripled from their first offer as they knew I was ready to go to tribunal. My lawyer would have wiped the floor with them from what she had seen and read.

So if you want the name of good employment lawyer firm then do DM as they have won for me three times in my career so far.

So my current employer better not fark with me......

RMH_R Reborn

Unfair dismissal? on 08:04 - Jun 9 with 1708 views

paulhoop2

As I said must be an option not guaranteed. Either way there are options that must be considered. I deal mainly with public sector so as you can imagine there is a policy for every eventuality. I find a good rep is someone that engages with the employer but not too pally with them

Poll:

Now it’s slightly clearer cut who do you want as manager ?

Unfair dismissal? on 23:18 - Jun 11 with 1483 views

NewBee

Unfair dismissal? on 10:20 - Jun 8 by Benny_the_Ball
This is why Bazza's stat, though well meaning, is slightly skewed. Companies facing strong cases will ultimately be advised by legal counsel to settle out-of-court in order to save on costs and time, as well as protect their reputation (via NDAs). This leaves the weaker cases to go to tribunal, hence the low success rate for claimants.

Also, if you read some of the cases, a lot of the complainants are vexatious and in bad faith, if not off-the-wall bonkers , and should never have got as far as a tribunal.

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