| The 12 point deduction 20:58 - Jan 28 with 4936 views | TwelveAngryMen |
Is there anyone on here who wouldn't take that hit to be certain of being rid of our No 1 fan ?
Spoke to Fred about this a few weeks ago and his view at the time as that it was too high a price - hopefully my feedback as to what it would mean may have given him food for thought
Plus our recent results suggest we can avoid relegation even if the deduction is applied so the risk is lessened in my eyes as compared with when we spoke
Personally I'd take relegation every day if it guaranteed an Oyston free BFC albeit I'd rather we didn't but the priority as I see it must to remove the family Nothing should delay that for me
Thoughts?
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| The 12 point deduction on 21:08 - Jan 28 with 2920 views | ROTTWEILERS |
The Oyston family gone remains the top priority. The points deduction is beyond our control so what will be, will be. I have ZERO faith in the EFL to do right by us so if they have the option to apply a deduction, I fully expect them to do it.
That said, I think talk of doing enough to avoid a relegation is harsh on a team pushing for a play-off berth. Ideal scenario is obviously play-offs with Oyston gone. The home semi on its own would be MEGA !! [Post edited 28 Jan 2019 21:08]
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| The 12 point deduction on 21:16 - Jan 28 with 2910 views | BringBackTheRedRoom |
I'd take the 12 points deduction. However.....
a) I'd really can't see how the EFL could impose it, from my interpretation of their rules. (I could see this ending in a court case)
b) Team is good enough to stay up.
c) If it does happen, then let it be in this season (ie prior to 5.00pm on the fourth Thursday in March). Starting next season on minus 12 points would be my least favourite option. [Post edited 28 Jan 2019 21:28]
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| ‘Where there is harmony, may we bring discord. Where there is truth, may we bring error. Where there is faith, may we bring doubt. And where there is hope, may we bring despair’ |
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| The 12 point deduction on 21:28 - Jan 28 with 2897 views | Lala |
I’m banking on Reds option B being the current likely outcome.
I’m assuming Fred was concerned what a 12 point deduction would do to the club long term at the time of your discussion. Which may have been a slightly more precarious snap shot in time.
I’d like to think, from the rumour mill and ITK’s we are heading for an Oyston free future now anyway after the receivers have done their job and with VB and the local investor waiting in the wings. |  |
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| The 12 point deduction on 21:29 - Jan 28 with 2895 views | spell_chekker |
| The 12 point deduction on 21:16 - Jan 28 by BringBackTheRedRoom |
I'd take the 12 points deduction. However.....
a) I'd really can't see how the EFL could impose it, from my interpretation of their rules. (I could see this ending in a court case)
b) Team is good enough to stay up.
c) If it does happen, then let it be in this season (ie prior to 5.00pm on the fourth Thursday in March). Starting next season on minus 12 points would be my least favourite option. [Post edited 28 Jan 2019 21:28]
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Good point Red. Starting next season on minus 12 is a no no.
Other than that, I'd take L2 if necessary. It could even be (nearly) turned into a positive as an easier place to regroup, get back momentum, and have some success early on in the life of a new regime. There would be more of a risk of stagnating in L1, even under progressive ownership. |  |
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| The 12 point deduction on 21:30 - Jan 28 with 2892 views | TwelveAngryMen |
| The 12 point deduction on 21:16 - Jan 28 by BringBackTheRedRoom |
I'd take the 12 points deduction. However.....
a) I'd really can't see how the EFL could impose it, from my interpretation of their rules. (I could see this ending in a court case)
b) Team is good enough to stay up.
c) If it does happen, then let it be in this season (ie prior to 5.00pm on the fourth Thursday in March). Starting next season on minus 12 points would be my least favourite option. [Post edited 28 Jan 2019 21:28]
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Why can't you see how it could be imposed ? | |
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| The 12 point deduction on 21:37 - Jan 28 with 2885 views | BringBackTheRedRoom |
| The 12 point deduction on 21:30 - Jan 28 by TwelveAngryMen |
Why can't you see how it could be imposed ? |
TAM.
I'd start to build an appeal case around this part of the EFL rules
The following Regulation provides for how sporting sanctions will be applied to Clubs when the Club, or any Group Undertaking, becomes subject to or suffers an Insolvency Event, and also makes provision for an appeals mechanism, but only on the grounds of ‘Force Majeure’.
By way of clarification the following are identified as circumstances which it is intended would be embraced under the category of ‘Force Majeure’. It is intended that this appeals process should be limited to circumstances which are deemed unforeseeable and unavoidable. In all these examples, each case would have to be considered on its own merits. | |
| ‘Where there is harmony, may we bring discord. Where there is truth, may we bring error. Where there is faith, may we bring doubt. And where there is hope, may we bring despair’ |
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| The 12 point deduction on 21:41 - Jan 28 with 2880 views | Imperial |
| The 12 point deduction on 21:30 - Jan 28 by TwelveAngryMen |
Why can't you see how it could be imposed ? |
Thanks to the terrific job done by first Gary Bowyer and now Terry McPhillips it is a risk worth taking. |  | | |
| The 12 point deduction on 21:44 - Jan 28 with 2876 views | spell_chekker |
| The 12 point deduction on 21:41 - Jan 28 by Imperial |
Thanks to the terrific job done by first Gary Bowyer and now Terry McPhillips it is a risk worth taking. |
He's a brainy sod that Red.  | |
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| The 12 point deduction on 21:50 - Jan 28 with 2872 views | BringBackTheRedRoom |
| The 12 point deduction on 21:44 - Jan 28 by spell_chekker |
He's a brainy sod that Red. |
Ha! Trust me spell I'm not.
a) Too much time on my hands
b) Lots and lots of bookmarks
c) Friends in the legal trade (However all Americans, so not much use in this case). | |
| ‘Where there is harmony, may we bring discord. Where there is truth, may we bring error. Where there is faith, may we bring doubt. And where there is hope, may we bring despair’ |
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| The 12 point deduction on 01:10 - Jan 29 with 2850 views | 3goalsfred |
TAM, looks like we’re likely to be Oyston free in the not too distant which is what we all want. As for being happy to 'take the hit' of a points deduction, it’s a hypothetical question as the decision is not ours to make. History tells us that It can only be the preface to an argument! As another poster said, we'll have to wait and see what happens.
When we spoke at the BST outside office a few weeks ago I think my initial thoughts were about the effect a points deduction would have on the manager and the team who have all worked very hard to get us towards the play off area of Div1. A huge blow for them.
Perhaps your detachment from the team over an extended period makes the prospect of a points deduction more palatable than it would be for those who still attend?
Cheers
Fred | | | |
| The 12 point deduction on 06:20 - Jan 29 with 2834 views | todayistheday |
Still not 100% we will be Oyston free for a few years yet,would take a 12 pt hit even if it relegated us. Not sure I would if we were in L2 and it took us into the conference. Have you any news Tam or are you just being optimistic,dont read many posts these days as I have lost all interest in football. | | | |
| The 12 point deduction on 06:36 - Jan 29 with 2832 views | TwelveAngryMen |
| The 12 point deduction on 01:10 - Jan 29 by 3goalsfred |
TAM, looks like we’re likely to be Oyston free in the not too distant which is what we all want. As for being happy to 'take the hit' of a points deduction, it’s a hypothetical question as the decision is not ours to make. History tells us that It can only be the preface to an argument! As another poster said, we'll have to wait and see what happens.
When we spoke at the BST outside office a few weeks ago I think my initial thoughts were about the effect a points deduction would have on the manager and the team who have all worked very hard to get us towards the play off area of Div1. A huge blow for them.
Perhaps your detachment from the team over an extended period makes the prospect of a points deduction more palatable than it would be for those who still attend?
Cheers
Fred |
Fred firstly it is of course a hypothetical question as the decision on both the receivership and then the application of the points deduction isn’t as you say ours
I can appreciate that the team / staff maybe disappointed but let’s put it in context - they are reasonably well-paid professionals They will get over it
Most wont be here that long in any event - most certainly most of us will still be here after the their departure
The fans are BFC and we have many who haven’t felt able to attend home games for 4 or more years - some very young fans can’t even remember ever going into Bloomfield Rd whilst some elderly fans might never get the chance to return unless this is sorted soon ( indeed for some it’s already too late )
So for me the impact on the players doesn't come into it
Nothing should come before sorting this mess out at the earliest opportunity
Hopefully the return of the boycotting fans will compensate the players and help them and us overcome the deduction if applied [Post edited 29 Jan 2019 6:58]
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| The 12 point deduction on 07:22 - Jan 29 with 2824 views | Lala |
The interest of the club is optimum to some before the destruction of the Oystons.
It’s like parenting a child and hating your vile ex. You protect your child even if that means not always being able to annihilate your evil ex. Some are not capable of viewing it that way because they put their own feelings and issues before the benefit and needs of the child. Of course in an ideal world you get it both ways and as long as the child isn’t damaged then great ðŸ‘
I get where Fred is coming from, completely.
But it’s all hypothetical, hopefully. | |
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| The 12 point deduction on 08:38 - Jan 29 with 2811 views | TwelveAngryMen |
| The 12 point deduction on 07:22 - Jan 29 by Lala |
The interest of the club is optimum to some before the destruction of the Oystons.
It’s like parenting a child and hating your vile ex. You protect your child even if that means not always being able to annihilate your evil ex. Some are not capable of viewing it that way because they put their own feelings and issues before the benefit and needs of the child. Of course in an ideal world you get it both ways and as long as the child isn’t damaged then great ðŸ‘
I get where Fred is coming from, completely.
But it’s all hypothetical, hopefully. |
I sort of follow the analogy LaLa but equally I suppose it turns on what takes priority for the ' child '
1/ Maintain current league position but at the expense of a continuation of the status quo with BFC limping on with paltry crowds, fans divided and chronic under-investment on and off the pitch
2/ Regime change, the return of the boycotters and the prospect of a rebuild under new owners with decent training facilities, a properly maintained stadium, tangible support from the stands and the end of the divisions we've seen in recent years
I wonder what the players would prefer ? | |
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| The 12 point deduction on 09:41 - Jan 29 with 2798 views | 3goalsfred |
| The 12 point deduction on 08:38 - Jan 29 by TwelveAngryMen |
I sort of follow the analogy LaLa but equally I suppose it turns on what takes priority for the ' child '
1/ Maintain current league position but at the expense of a continuation of the status quo with BFC limping on with paltry crowds, fans divided and chronic under-investment on and off the pitch
2/ Regime change, the return of the boycotters and the prospect of a rebuild under new owners with decent training facilities, a properly maintained stadium, tangible support from the stands and the end of the divisions we've seen in recent years
I wonder what the players would prefer ? |
TAM
It’s ironic that one of the benefits you aspire to achieve is the end of the division in the fanbase. A division caused by NAPM which you and others have championed and which appears to have had a questionable impact on regime change. You must have realised at the outset of your NAPM campaign that the division in the fanbase was an inevitable consequence.
If we were able to wind the clock back would you take the same NAPM path? With the benefit of hindsight of course! Now that’s a nice hypothetical question for you 🤔
As ever, up the Pool
Fred | | | |
| The 12 point deduction on 09:59 - Jan 29 with 2794 views | spell_chekker |
| The 12 point deduction on 09:41 - Jan 29 by 3goalsfred |
TAM
It’s ironic that one of the benefits you aspire to achieve is the end of the division in the fanbase. A division caused by NAPM which you and others have championed and which appears to have had a questionable impact on regime change. You must have realised at the outset of your NAPM campaign that the division in the fanbase was an inevitable consequence.
If we were able to wind the clock back would you take the same NAPM path? With the benefit of hindsight of course! Now that’s a nice hypothetical question for you 🤔
As ever, up the Pool
Fred |
I live too far from Blackpool to attend regularly so it's easy to say but I would be NAPM.
Some people stopped because of fans being sued but I was too hacked off about the whole situation towards the end of our time in the Championship, the lack of ambition became too apparent to me. The team being sent out to play had hardly any chance of winning and got the joint record lowest points' total for their last season in the Championship.
It was later confirmed by the court what many had suspected that the club had been illegitimately stripped.
I lost passion because of the intentions of the people running the club at the time. The team being sent out weren't offering a sporting contest, it wasn't a 'match', they had no chance, it wasn't something I could personally invest in, there was no point in supporting them.
Having said that, I think some NAPMers need to give their heads a wobble. They're filled with anger just because others don't have the same opinions and still attend games. | |
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| The 12 point deduction (n/t) on 11:05 - Jan 29 with 2782 views | janegallagher |
| The 12 point deduction on 09:59 - Jan 29 by spell_chekker |
I live too far from Blackpool to attend regularly so it's easy to say but I would be NAPM.
Some people stopped because of fans being sued but I was too hacked off about the whole situation towards the end of our time in the Championship, the lack of ambition became too apparent to me. The team being sent out to play had hardly any chance of winning and got the joint record lowest points' total for their last season in the Championship.
It was later confirmed by the court what many had suspected that the club had been illegitimately stripped.
I lost passion because of the intentions of the people running the club at the time. The team being sent out weren't offering a sporting contest, it wasn't a 'match', they had no chance, it wasn't something I could personally invest in, there was no point in supporting them.
Having said that, I think some NAPMers need to give their heads a wobble. They're filled with anger just because others don't have the same opinions and still attend games. |
There’s a lot I could say about divisiveness that is not addressed. Some bloody awful stuff I have read. Makes my blood boil [Post edited 29 Jan 2019 11:48]
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| The 12 point deduction on 11:43 - Jan 29 with 2763 views | spudgun |
| The 12 point deduction on 09:41 - Jan 29 by 3goalsfred |
TAM
It’s ironic that one of the benefits you aspire to achieve is the end of the division in the fanbase. A division caused by NAPM which you and others have championed and which appears to have had a questionable impact on regime change. You must have realised at the outset of your NAPM campaign that the division in the fanbase was an inevitable consequence.
If we were able to wind the clock back would you take the same NAPM path? With the benefit of hindsight of course! Now that’s a nice hypothetical question for you 🤔
As ever, up the Pool
Fred |
First let me be transparent on my standpoint in this discussion.
I first watched BFC in 1969 and have attended many, many games over the years, up until this season. I last visited BR to watch a game in 2011. But my heart was already with another team from the age of 7 so I am less passionate than most on here, but I am perhaps more objective than some die-hard fans.
I adhere to NAPM (although that is obviously no big sacrifice really) and suggest it was probably a necessary and positive thing overall in effecting change, and I agree with TAMs`s first post. And I also agree with him that a 12 point penalty would be for the best, if it meant the demise of OO.
Regarding the merits and effectiveness of NAPM, it was probably inevitable, and certainly has brought secondary pressure to bear, and may have worked better with any other owner, but without VB it would have been unlikely to have been enough on its own. We must also factor in that OO is at the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to hubris, delusion and obstinacy. Many other owners may have crumbled under such fierce insurgence.
And of course NAPM has been hugely divisive (which again is normal), but being generally liberal, I respect the rights of people to follow their own paths without being subjected to self-righteous verbal aggression from elitists on either side of the argument.
I hope that when this is resolved (and my pals can have the fabric of their Saturdays restored to normality and watch their team again), nobody feels that their moral crusade warrants any misguided action against any other supporter. | | | |
| The 12 point deduction on 11:51 - Jan 29 with 2752 views | Lala |
| The 12 point deduction on 11:43 - Jan 29 by spudgun |
First let me be transparent on my standpoint in this discussion.
I first watched BFC in 1969 and have attended many, many games over the years, up until this season. I last visited BR to watch a game in 2011. But my heart was already with another team from the age of 7 so I am less passionate than most on here, but I am perhaps more objective than some die-hard fans.
I adhere to NAPM (although that is obviously no big sacrifice really) and suggest it was probably a necessary and positive thing overall in effecting change, and I agree with TAMs`s first post. And I also agree with him that a 12 point penalty would be for the best, if it meant the demise of OO.
Regarding the merits and effectiveness of NAPM, it was probably inevitable, and certainly has brought secondary pressure to bear, and may have worked better with any other owner, but without VB it would have been unlikely to have been enough on its own. We must also factor in that OO is at the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to hubris, delusion and obstinacy. Many other owners may have crumbled under such fierce insurgence.
And of course NAPM has been hugely divisive (which again is normal), but being generally liberal, I respect the rights of people to follow their own paths without being subjected to self-righteous verbal aggression from elitists on either side of the argument.
I hope that when this is resolved (and my pals can have the fabric of their Saturdays restored to normality and watch their team again), nobody feels that their moral crusade warrants any misguided action against any other supporter. |
Very wise words indeed Spud | |
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| The 12 point deduction on 12:13 - Jan 29 with 2746 views | TwelveAngryMen |
| The 12 point deduction on 11:51 - Jan 29 by Lala |
Very wise words indeed Spud |
Good post that Spud
Fred whilst I adhere to and promote NAPM equally I championed the right of individual choice and indeed spoke against BST formally adopting NAPM as official policy which contributed towards the position then adopted namely that it was an ethical decision
The division has been a two way street - the abuse I have taken ( whilst water of a ducks back ) has been pretty vile | |
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| The 12 point deduction on 12:14 - Jan 29 with 2746 views | BringBackTheRedRoom |
Spud's post nails it. I would add that NAPM effects, though not able to oust OO on their own, has the value of
a) Denying not only season ticket/POTG money, but secondary revenue streams from merchandise, sponsorship, corporate, etc..... Accounts for the 2016/17 season showed the club now running at a £2m loss. That has a knock on effect on his other companies. Even someone as stubborn as OO, knows that loss can't be maintained.
b) Don't under estimate the propaganda value of NAPM. If we were getting about 6k home fans each game, you know OO would be shouting from the roof top (while sunbathing) about how the fans back him and not that nasty Latvian man. It's also helped (through BST's work) keep the story in the news, which for a division 1/2 club, is no mean feat, when 99% of Football news is about The Premier League. [Post edited 29 Jan 2019 12:39]
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| ‘Where there is harmony, may we bring discord. Where there is truth, may we bring error. Where there is faith, may we bring doubt. And where there is hope, may we bring despair’ |
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| The 12 point deduction on 12:37 - Jan 29 with 2726 views | janegallagher |
| The 12 point deduction on 12:14 - Jan 29 by BringBackTheRedRoom |
Spud's post nails it. I would add that NAPM effects, though not able to oust OO on their own, has the value of
a) Denying not only season ticket/POTG money, but secondary revenue streams from merchandise, sponsorship, corporate, etc..... Accounts for the 2016/17 season showed the club now running at a £2m loss. That has a knock on effect on his other companies. Even someone as stubborn as OO, knows that loss can't be maintained.
b) Don't under estimate the propaganda value of NAPM. If we were getting about 6k home fans each game, you know OO would be shouting from the roof top (while sunbathing) about how the fans back him and not that nasty Latvian man. It's also helped (through BST's work) keep the story in the news, which for a division 1/2 club, is no mean feat, when 99% of Football news is about The Premier League. [Post edited 29 Jan 2019 12:39]
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The division has been a two way street - the abuse I have taken ( whilst water of a ducks back ) has been pretty vile
And this is why I want to give up. Two way street my arris.
There’s been vile stuff out there. Shall i start with the lad who was abused on London bus sat with his gran? [Post edited 29 Jan 2019 12:49]
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| The 12 point deduction on 12:48 - Jan 29 with 2716 views | spell_chekker |
| The 12 point deduction on 12:14 - Jan 29 by BringBackTheRedRoom |
Spud's post nails it. I would add that NAPM effects, though not able to oust OO on their own, has the value of
a) Denying not only season ticket/POTG money, but secondary revenue streams from merchandise, sponsorship, corporate, etc..... Accounts for the 2016/17 season showed the club now running at a £2m loss. That has a knock on effect on his other companies. Even someone as stubborn as OO, knows that loss can't be maintained.
b) Don't under estimate the propaganda value of NAPM. If we were getting about 6k home fans each game, you know OO would be shouting from the roof top (while sunbathing) about how the fans back him and not that nasty Latvian man. It's also helped (through BST's work) keep the story in the news, which for a division 1/2 club, is no mean feat, when 99% of Football news is about The Premier League. [Post edited 29 Jan 2019 12:39]
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Agree with TAM's NAPM comments and Spud's post.
Also, In no way should going to games be used as a compass to judge if someone is morally a decent human being or not. It's just plain silly to do so and shouldn't get in the way of friendship, respect, and general communication with others.
I think people have been blinded by their anger, a red mist type thing, and will come round when the Oystons have finally been deposed. | |
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| The 12 point deduction on 13:35 - Jan 29 with 2696 views | 3goalsfred |
| The 12 point deduction on 12:13 - Jan 29 by TwelveAngryMen |
Good post that Spud
Fred whilst I adhere to and promote NAPM equally I championed the right of individual choice and indeed spoke against BST formally adopting NAPM as official policy which contributed towards the position then adopted namely that it was an ethical decision
The division has been a two way street - the abuse I have taken ( whilst water of a ducks back ) has been pretty vile |
Spud, I agree with the other posters, yours is a well thought out and considered post, well said.
TAM, credit where it’s due I wasn’t aware that you had opposed BST adopting NAPM as a policy. Fair play to you.
I must however echo Jane's surprise at your assertion that the division has been a two way street. I’m at a loss to think why you thought that was an appropriate comment to make when the lions share of abuse comes from the boycotters. The abuse directed at Jane for simply expressing an alternative view was unforgivable. The same applies to my posts on t'other side which prompted the very worst from a good many posters. Now I’m not looking for people to step in and defend me or anyone else but the silence from all the 'good posters' was deafening even even when the abuse was completely OTT.
So as Jane says, 2 way street my arris!
Fred | | | |
| The 12 point deduction on 13:43 - Jan 29 with 2675 views | basilrobbiereborn |
| The 12 point deduction on 13:35 - Jan 29 by 3goalsfred |
Spud, I agree with the other posters, yours is a well thought out and considered post, well said.
TAM, credit where it’s due I wasn’t aware that you had opposed BST adopting NAPM as a policy. Fair play to you.
I must however echo Jane's surprise at your assertion that the division has been a two way street. I’m at a loss to think why you thought that was an appropriate comment to make when the lions share of abuse comes from the boycotters. The abuse directed at Jane for simply expressing an alternative view was unforgivable. The same applies to my posts on t'other side which prompted the very worst from a good many posters. Now I’m not looking for people to step in and defend me or anyone else but the silence from all the 'good posters' was deafening even even when the abuse was completely OTT.
So as Jane says, 2 way street my arris!
Fred |
I feel I have to back TAM up here. One of the more insidious characteristics of AVFTT these days is that there are a number (maybe less than a dozen) of posters who hide behind anonymity to try to undermine the Trust, and prominent people around it, at every turn.
Some of that stuff is made worse by the calculation that lies behind it. That's not to say that the kind of abuse that Jane is talking about is acceptable - it isn't. But people are behaving badly on both sides and have done so for ages.
The best thing I have seen on there this week was when Tramway decided to stir it for those who go and got pelters for his spitefulness from quite a number of people. There should be more of that kind of response to that kind of post, whichever camp it comes from.
We may be back in the stadium together soon. And the process of repairing our club starts with repairing the relationship with one another. | |
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