| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late 17:28 - Oct 25 with 7706 views | NOTRAC |
The Trust has come in for considerable criticism over the last few years, some justified,some most certainly not.
I have posted a number of threads on here over a number of years predicting events such as the takeover, the bypassing of the Trust on the sale of shares,warnings about Jenkins , when it was very much against the Trust and most supporters opinions and before even people like Shaky got involved.
Again since the takeover I have warned about the sale of the Liberty lease .It is not a short term transfer ,it appears to be for forty years. In football terms this is almost a lifetime transfer.Although in name it is being transferred to the football club, in reality of course it is being transferred to the American syndicate that has not put a penny into the club itself, has its controlling shares in an anonymous American company, and who cannot wait to obtain control of the lease to sell it on with the football club for personal gain.
Anyone who really believes that the Americans are buying the lease from their own funds and for the purpose of extending capacity are living in cloud cuckoo land.
It will be purchased either by loans or funds built up in the football club from transfer surplus's or by increasing the indebtedness of the club by a mortgage on the lease itself.
The long term effects of this lease transfer could be devastating for the future wellbeing of the club itself and for the people of Swansea.
Whilst it is admirable that the Trust has as its objective the wellbeing of football in Swansea, I am both appalled and absolutely disappointed that there has been so little communication and action by the Trust on this issue.
As far as I am aware two of the representatives for the football club in negotiating the sale of the lease from the joint ownership of the football rugby and council partnership are Jenkins and Dineen.
Whilst in reality because of their minority shareholding there was little that could be done about the sale of shares, I always felt that if the Trust were wary about this lease transfer they could have had more success in stopping it happening by rousing public opinion against it and influencing the Council.
I believe that one of the main reasons that Jenkins has continued in his job, has been to ensure the safe passage of the lease transfer.
Also I am beginning to wonder from what has recently been posted on here whether any delay in paying the Trust the agreed share amount, is to ensure that the lease purchase goes through without opposition from the Trust.
The Liberty has been an integral part of the success of Swansea Football Club over the last fourteen years.
To risk transferring the lease ownership to these people from what has been a non profit making partnership without due diligence by the Trust and a full explanation of why the Trust thinks it is a good idea , is frankly appalling, especially after the shortcomings regarding the Share sales by their fellow shareholders .
The transfer of ownership of this lease with the subsequent rental charges to the football club, and the probability of debt is prime, in my opinion , to the Trusts main objective. |  |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 17:39 - Oct 25 with 5925 views | E20Jack |
Should be made a sticky. Fully backed you when you first said it and still do today.
Now we have made the awful decision of taking the relative pittance offered, we may as well use it in a way that actually can be useful. |  |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 17:53 - Oct 25 with 5901 views | londonlisa2001 |
The OP posted on many occasions that the Trust should accept the deal from the Americans. Said posts were fervent in their desire to do so and we're critical of those that thought the deal was awful.
Somewhat at odds with the warnings now about 'anonymous American syndicates'. | | | |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 17:59 - Oct 25 with 5888 views | NOTRAC |
We are talking about two seperate issues.I honestly believe that the sale of thie lease could have far more far reaching conclusions for the future of professional football in Swansea than any Trust shareholdings or money in the bank.
Also the fact that I thought differently on the Trust share sale, at least shows I hope that I have a balanced opinion and am not anti Trust.
However this transfer of the lease to these people frightens the life out of me. [Post edited 25 Oct 2017 18:03]
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 18:03 - Oct 25 with 5879 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 17:59 - Oct 25 by NOTRAC |
We are talking about two seperate issues.I honestly believe that the sale of thie lease could have far more far reaching conclusions for the future of professional football in Swansea than any Trust shareholdings or money in the bank.
Also the fact that I thought differently on the Trust share sale, at least shows I hope that I have a balanced opinion and am not anti Trust.
However this transfer of the lease to these people frightens the life out of me. [Post edited 25 Oct 2017 18:03]
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Why? | | | |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 18:12 - Oct 25 with 5860 views | NOTRAC |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 18:03 - Oct 25 by londonlisa2001 |
Why? |
Because what is the use of shares or money in the bank if you can't afford the rent and have no control over the ownership of the lease.
There is already talk of a lease rental of over £1m.
Not a lot if we remain in the Premiership, but a huge amount of money if we end up in the first or second division.
Also there has been no indication from the Trust on what safeguards ther are for future subletting charges .
At the moment we pay the council no ground rent charges.Neither do we pay Liberty Stadium costs.The partnership that currently runs the Trust is non profit making and covers these costs by taking a share of the income from events, football, and rugby.It has also built up a fund to cover future renovations.
At the moment it is a safe path , It may not be perfect, but why take the risk of transferring the ownership to a group of investors that have already shown deceipt,and in my opinion are running the club for personal motives. [Post edited 25 Oct 2017 18:17]
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 18:34 - Oct 25 with 5792 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 18:12 - Oct 25 by NOTRAC |
Because what is the use of shares or money in the bank if you can't afford the rent and have no control over the ownership of the lease.
There is already talk of a lease rental of over £1m.
Not a lot if we remain in the Premiership, but a huge amount of money if we end up in the first or second division.
Also there has been no indication from the Trust on what safeguards ther are for future subletting charges .
At the moment we pay the council no ground rent charges.Neither do we pay Liberty Stadium costs.The partnership that currently runs the Trust is non profit making and covers these costs by taking a share of the income from events, football, and rugby.It has also built up a fund to cover future renovations.
At the moment it is a safe path , It may not be perfect, but why take the risk of transferring the ownership to a group of investors that have already shown deceipt,and in my opinion are running the club for personal motives. [Post edited 25 Oct 2017 18:17]
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You misunderstand my point. I don't think the club should take over the lease (although it's a lot safer for the club's future than buying the stadium would be). I think they should negotiate a new deal around naming rights, expansion etc etc. I've said that for years.
But equally, there was never a reason for the Trust to get in bed with them by accepting the deal. The only option for the Trust was to take the money to provide an ultimate safeguard for the future, as these people could never be trusted. It was completely obvious.
There are covenants and should be reversion rights by the way over the lease, so they can't do their worst (not that they can anyway - there's no call for alternate uses for a patch of land in Landore - it's hardly Chelsea and the Kings Road when it comes to selling it off for development). [Post edited 25 Oct 2017 18:37]
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 18:34 - Oct 25 with 5791 views | Shaky |
"The long term effects of this lease transfer could be devastating for the future wellbeing of the club itself and for the people of Swansea. "
The stadium is what the French refer to as an actif immobilise; it's going nowhere.
What is it specifically you fear will happen? |  |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 18:36 - Oct 25 with 5782 views | longlostjack |
Agree completely with the OP. The Trust had better be on the ball with this one and keep a close eye on Mr Romie Chaudhari. |  |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 18:49 - Oct 25 with 5743 views | NOTRAC |
Shaky,London Lisa.
My point is that we do not know what safeguards are in this lease.The Trust appear to have been bystanders in this.At the very least they should have got involved and let their fellow shareholders what is happening.Perhaps they are fully involved but who knows.
The council are desperate for money.The rugby are struggling and would welcome compensation.
It would appear that this is almost a fait accompli and yet there has been very little discussion about it by the Trust regarding safeguards or anything else.
The press have reported it as a sale to the football club, but we all know what this really means.
It means a transfer of a wonderful Stadium built for the people of Swansea to a syndicate of business speculators.
Look why not put a clause in the transfer that if the Stadium is not extended within say four years , the lease would revert back to the original partnership and any premiums or payments made become non recoverable.
There are many things that could be done to ensure that the sale is for the benefit of future league football in Swansea, but please agree with me that it has been negotiated in complete secrecy and that is not fair and right. [Post edited 25 Oct 2017 18:57]
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 18:55 - Oct 25 with 5724 views | Shaky |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 18:49 - Oct 25 by NOTRAC |
Shaky,London Lisa.
My point is that we do not know what safeguards are in this lease.The Trust appear to have been bystanders in this.At the very least they should have got involved and let their fellow shareholders what is happening.Perhaps they are fully involved but who knows.
The council are desperate for money.The rugby are struggling and would welcome compensation.
It would appear that this is almost a fait accompli and yet there has been very little discussion about it by the Trust regarding safeguards or anything else.
The press have reported it as a sale to the football club, but we all know what this really means.
It means a transfer of a wonderful Stadium built for the people of Swansea to a syndicate of business speculators.
Look why not put a clause in the transfer that if the Stadium is not extended within say four years , the lease would revert back to the original partnership and any premiums or payments made become non recoverable.
There are many things that could be done to ensure that the sale is for the benefit of future league football in Swansea, but please agree with me that it has been negotiated in complete secrecy and that is not fair and right. [Post edited 25 Oct 2017 18:57]
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i'm none the wiser about what it is you fear could happen here.
Yes, the Americans will sell, but so what? The buyers will be bound by whatever covenants have been imposed under the lease.
And the Trust is not a party to any of this. It is none of their business. Nor do they have any expertise whatsoever in negotiating commercial property deals that I am aware of.
Surely the right place to go if you are concerned about this is the council and your local council member. This is firmly in their department. | |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:02 - Oct 25 with 5698 views | NOTRAC |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 18:55 - Oct 25 by Shaky |
i'm none the wiser about what it is you fear could happen here.
Yes, the Americans will sell, but so what? The buyers will be bound by whatever covenants have been imposed under the lease.
And the Trust is not a party to any of this. It is none of their business. Nor do they have any expertise whatsoever in negotiating commercial property deals that I am aware of.
Surely the right place to go if you are concerned about this is the council and your local council member. This is firmly in their department. |
My point is that we do not know what the terms of the lease are.I have also made the point that the football club representatives include Dineen and Jenkins .
Surely as the next biggest shareholders the Trust should be fully involved in this before Dineen in particular.
To suggest that the Trust should not be involved in this shows a lack of understanding of what the original ideals of setting up a partnership between the council, rugby and the football club was about | |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:03 - Oct 25 with 5693 views | Neath_Jack |
What are the Trust going to do?
Let their f*cking tyres down?
Have a vote?
Form a sub-committee? |  |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:06 - Oct 25 with 5683 views | Shaky |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:02 - Oct 25 by NOTRAC |
My point is that we do not know what the terms of the lease are.I have also made the point that the football club representatives include Dineen and Jenkins .
Surely as the next biggest shareholders the Trust should be fully involved in this before Dineen in particular.
To suggest that the Trust should not be involved in this shows a lack of understanding of what the original ideals of setting up a partnership between the council, rugby and the football club was about |
Sorry, Notrac, seems to me you're waffling here, in the absence of anything specifc you are concerned about.
Smacks somewhat of a kind of ill-defined xenophobia in my view. | |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:08 - Oct 25 with 5668 views | NOTRAC |
All I am asking is for the Trust to come out and fully explain why this is a good idea.Explain what the covenants are..And if they disagree with this transfer, this is surely their opportunity to a no holds barred effort to stop it happening. | |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:10 - Oct 25 with 5651 views | Shaky |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:08 - Oct 25 by NOTRAC |
All I am asking is for the Trust to come out and fully explain why this is a good idea.Explain what the covenants are..And if they disagree with this transfer, this is surely their opportunity to a no holds barred effort to stop it happening. |
But Notrac why should they do that? What is it specifically you fear could happen? | |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:11 - Oct 25 with 5648 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 18:49 - Oct 25 by NOTRAC |
Shaky,London Lisa.
My point is that we do not know what safeguards are in this lease.The Trust appear to have been bystanders in this.At the very least they should have got involved and let their fellow shareholders what is happening.Perhaps they are fully involved but who knows.
The council are desperate for money.The rugby are struggling and would welcome compensation.
It would appear that this is almost a fait accompli and yet there has been very little discussion about it by the Trust regarding safeguards or anything else.
The press have reported it as a sale to the football club, but we all know what this really means.
It means a transfer of a wonderful Stadium built for the people of Swansea to a syndicate of business speculators.
Look why not put a clause in the transfer that if the Stadium is not extended within say four years , the lease would revert back to the original partnership and any premiums or payments made become non recoverable.
There are many things that could be done to ensure that the sale is for the benefit of future league football in Swansea, but please agree with me that it has been negotiated in complete secrecy and that is not fair and right. [Post edited 25 Oct 2017 18:57]
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Well I can tell you that the stadium has a covenant (50 years, of which 10 has passed hence the 40 years being spoken about I imagine), for the use of the city's football and rugby teams.
It can't be used for anything else. So that's one safeguard.
The ownership of the stadium will stay with the council (which is why it's safer), and under most leases (actually all probably), the lease will revert back to the landlord in the event of a bankruptcy event of the leaseholder. So the stadium is not in danger ifbthe club, for example, goes into administration.
Now there are all sorts of other rights that the council could impose. E.g. Rights in the event of a change in control. But those, as Shaky says, should be put in by the council and they are the right people to lobby.
The Trust can't really do anything.
The reason for the Trust not being involved in the negotiations (other than obviously as a valued partner who take an active role in all decisions that the club make...) is because negotiations are carried out by club officers (directors, for example), not shareholders. [Post edited 25 Oct 2017 19:12]
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:15 - Oct 25 with 5621 views | NOTRAC |
I thought the Trust had a director in the football club.
I was unaware that Dineen is still a director
Lets wait forty years for it to revert back to the people of Swansea then! | |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:20 - Oct 25 with 5597 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:15 - Oct 25 by NOTRAC |
I thought the Trust had a director in the football club.
I was unaware that Dineen is still a director
Lets wait forty years for it to revert back to the people of Swansea then! |
They do. Although I can't say we hear much from him.
Dineen is Vice Chairman as far as I'm aware, and as such, would, with the Chairman, be in a position to negotiate such a deal.
As for the last bit - that's the status at the moment. The council ( or people of Swansea if you prefer), have leased out the stadium for another 40 years. The change is the identity of leaseholder, not the fact that there is a lease. [Post edited 25 Oct 2017 19:21]
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:24 - Oct 25 with 5572 views | longlostjack |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:11 - Oct 25 by londonlisa2001 |
Well I can tell you that the stadium has a covenant (50 years, of which 10 has passed hence the 40 years being spoken about I imagine), for the use of the city's football and rugby teams.
It can't be used for anything else. So that's one safeguard.
The ownership of the stadium will stay with the council (which is why it's safer), and under most leases (actually all probably), the lease will revert back to the landlord in the event of a bankruptcy event of the leaseholder. So the stadium is not in danger ifbthe club, for example, goes into administration.
Now there are all sorts of other rights that the council could impose. E.g. Rights in the event of a change in control. But those, as Shaky says, should be put in by the council and they are the right people to lobby.
The Trust can't really do anything.
The reason for the Trust not being involved in the negotiations (other than obviously as a valued partner who take an active role in all decisions that the club make...) is because negotiations are carried out by club officers (directors, for example), not shareholders. [Post edited 25 Oct 2017 19:12]
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Reassuring. I hope that the Trust will be better at lobbying the council than our current owners though. Money talks. (Please note lack of xenophobic terminology Shaky.) | |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:25 - Oct 25 with 5564 views | NOTRAC |
I am not arguing with you anymore.I have indicated my views consistently on this matter, and it would appear that you, other members of this forum and particularly the Trust are not worried about it.I honestly hope that you are proved right and that I am wrong. | |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:28 - Oct 25 with 5548 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:24 - Oct 25 by longlostjack |
Reassuring. I hope that the Trust will be better at lobbying the council than our current owners though. Money talks. (Please note lack of xenophobic terminology Shaky.) |
Hmm. I'm not sure a major shareholder / director could realistically lobby the council to put in protections against the company that they are a major shareholder / director of?
They are not fulfilling their fiduciary responsibilities of acting in the best interest of all shareholders if they do that.
It's the problem about being 'inside'. [Post edited 25 Oct 2017 19:29]
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:29 - Oct 25 with 5538 views | Vetchfielder |
I agree and I can't see any reason why anybody would not want the Trust to review and report what is happening.
Even if the stadium is not being bought by the club, surely the danger with the lease is that it could be sold to some mysterious Delaware company who could then lease it back to the club at higher annual charges? Obviously this can be prevented by appropriate covenants and that is what we need to ensure is covered. There's probably loads of other bad things that only dishonest people could think up.
In Feb 2017, in response to a NOTRAC post on this topic, I wrote and I repeat:
"Message to Swansea City Council/Councillors: don't trust any of the sell out directors of SCFC and please protect our future interests
Message to Ospreys reps on the stadium company: don't trust any of the sell out directors of SCFC
Message to the Trust board: you already know not to trust them so please deal directly with the Council to ensure that safeguards are in place to stop selling the stadium on to some other company in future. Preferably obtain some sort of clause which gives the Trust a veto on any future sale. " |  |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:32 - Oct 25 with 5518 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:25 - Oct 25 by NOTRAC |
I am not arguing with you anymore.I have indicated my views consistently on this matter, and it would appear that you, other members of this forum and particularly the Trust are not worried about it.I honestly hope that you are proved right and that I am wrong. |
It's nothing to do with being worried about it. I'm worried about all aspects of the way this club is going.
But you haven't been consistent. You argued (strongly) to get into bed with these people and now you want protection in case they try something on.
I wanted (as did Shaky), to get the hell out of the bedroom. | | | |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:35 - Oct 25 with 5501 views | monmouth |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:25 - Oct 25 by NOTRAC |
I am not arguing with you anymore.I have indicated my views consistently on this matter, and it would appear that you, other members of this forum and particularly the Trust are not worried about it.I honestly hope that you are proved right and that I am wrong. |
Well I've read this mate and I am also utterly mystified as to what you hope to be wrong about. Is it that a new leaseholder might charge a killing ground rent on relegation? But why would they, it's their money anyway isn't it.
In a sentence what is the 'it' that you are so frightened of?
If the council won't protect the future of the club in this then no other bugger can that's for sure. A board vote would meet all needs of corporate governance and legality, whether the Trust was happy or not. |  |
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| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:36 - Oct 25 with 5494 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The Trust should be fully involved in the Liberty transfer before it is too late on 19:29 - Oct 25 by Vetchfielder |
I agree and I can't see any reason why anybody would not want the Trust to review and report what is happening.
Even if the stadium is not being bought by the club, surely the danger with the lease is that it could be sold to some mysterious Delaware company who could then lease it back to the club at higher annual charges? Obviously this can be prevented by appropriate covenants and that is what we need to ensure is covered. There's probably loads of other bad things that only dishonest people could think up.
In Feb 2017, in response to a NOTRAC post on this topic, I wrote and I repeat:
"Message to Swansea City Council/Councillors: don't trust any of the sell out directors of SCFC and please protect our future interests
Message to Ospreys reps on the stadium company: don't trust any of the sell out directors of SCFC
Message to the Trust board: you already know not to trust them so please deal directly with the Council to ensure that safeguards are in place to stop selling the stadium on to some other company in future. Preferably obtain some sort of clause which gives the Trust a veto on any future sale. " |
So you want specific safeguards to stop the lease being sold, and yet there are no safeguards to stop the club being sold (along with the lease)? And the Trust's shares sold at the same time.
The danger is not the lease being sold to a mysterious Delaware company, the danger is that the club IS a mysterious Delaware company. | | | |
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