| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:13 - Jul 25 with 2086 views | GloryHunter |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 19:55 - Jul 25 by BAWHoops |
I think until Joey Barton and his family have a rocket aimed at them like Yossi and his family have he shouldn't respond.
I don't understand the obsession everyone has with one side being right and one side being wrong?
It's f.ucking terrible and the images of the dead make me sick.
I'm Jewish, I'm off to Israel tomorrow to visit family. However I'm not blind to the fact you can't bomb a UN school and you can't build settlements. I'm also not blind to the fact you can't fire a rocket at civilian population and build tunnels to sneak into a country and murder its civilians in the dead of night.
We should all be praying for peace and hoping that one day Israel and Palestine can exist side by side, just as Israel and their former enemies Egypt and Jordan do.
Both states have a right to exist |
"We should all be praying for peace"? In order to pray, I'd have to believe in a god, right? I'm with Joey on this one - there is no evidence of a bearded man in the sky, but there is lots of evidence that people who believe in such an imaginary figure are prepared to murder other people who don't, or who believe in a different god.
Israel is the only nation in the world which is founded on religious principles. They call themselves a democracy, but they have expelled and murdered the people who had the misfortune to be living on that land in 1948.
After what the Jewish people went through in 1939 - 1945 it is incredible that they should now be practicing the same policies on the Palestinians, and the rest of the civilised world allows them to carry on doing it. |  | |  |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:19 - Jul 25 with 2078 views | timcocking |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:50 - Jul 25 by Watford_Ranger |
The respective death tolls aren't relevant- one side is using their own as human shields while the other has arguably the most advanced defences in the world due to being next to a place intent on blowing it off the map with poor quality rockets daily.
I'm not pretending Israel never does wrong but the level of ignorance from genuinely intelligent people is surprising. |
Indeed.
Nobody wants to see schools being blown up, but people saying the Palestinians aren't deliberately trying to kill civilians? Ummm, yeah, right...
The fact they are not as good at it as the Israelis is another issue altogether, as is anything to do with land.
We'd be better off without them all. |  | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:20 - Jul 25 with 2075 views | timcocking |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:34 - Jul 25 by kropotkin41 |
Oh, and for what it's worth I wouldn't want another Israeli to play for QPR until there is justice for Palestine which in my opinion would mean the Right of Return and the dismantling of the Israeli apartheid apparatus entirely.......... one country for Jews and Arabs in Palestine/Israel.
No Justice, No Peace. |
Very racist that. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:24 - Jul 25 with 2070 views | timcocking |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:26 - Jul 25 by THEBUSH |
The respective death tolls may not be relevant to you, they are to anyone who cares about what is going on in the occupied territory.
Israel are bombing and shelling UN organised schools and have killed innocent children, how can you justify that ? |
He wasn't justifying that, he was pointing out the bleeding obvious truth, that the Palestinians are doing it as well. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:32 - Jul 25 with 2052 views | Pommyhoop |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:13 - Jul 25 by GloryHunter |
"We should all be praying for peace"? In order to pray, I'd have to believe in a god, right? I'm with Joey on this one - there is no evidence of a bearded man in the sky, but there is lots of evidence that people who believe in such an imaginary figure are prepared to murder other people who don't, or who believe in a different god.
Israel is the only nation in the world which is founded on religious principles. They call themselves a democracy, but they have expelled and murdered the people who had the misfortune to be living on that land in 1948.
After what the Jewish people went through in 1939 - 1945 it is incredible that they should now be practicing the same policies on the Palestinians, and the rest of the civilised world allows them to carry on doing it. |
After what the Jewish people went through in 1939 - 1945 it is incredible that they should now be practicing the same policies on the Palestinians, and the rest of the civilised world allows them to carry on doing it.
Maybe we should do what the world did in 1936 - 1945 .Turn our backs while others
''liquidate them , wipe them from the face of the earth ,push them back into the sea''. |  |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:34 - Jul 25 with 2049 views | THEBUSH |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:24 - Jul 25 by timcocking |
He wasn't justifying that, he was pointing out the bleeding obvious truth, that the Palestinians are doing it as well. |
So you know what the, bleeding obvious truth is, how do you know that ? |  | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:37 - Jul 25 with 2040 views | N12Hoop |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:32 - Jul 25 by Pommyhoop |
After what the Jewish people went through in 1939 - 1945 it is incredible that they should now be practicing the same policies on the Palestinians, and the rest of the civilised world allows them to carry on doing it.
Maybe we should do what the world did in 1936 - 1945 .Turn our backs while others
''liquidate them , wipe them from the face of the earth ,push them back into the sea''. |
There's a fundamental difference between casualties of war and systematically wiping out races of people through the use of gas chambers, using them for grotesque experiments and doing untold other unspeakable crimes. To accuse the Israelis of doing what the Nazi's did is ignorance beyond belief. |  |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:40 - Jul 25 with 2033 views | kysersosaqpr |
Brian: are you the judean people's front
Reg: feck off
Brian: what
Reg: judean people's front. We're the peoples front for judea! Judean people's front
Francis: w..nkers
Brian: can I ..... Join your group
Reg: no p..s off
Brian: I hate the Romans as much as anyone
And so it goes on |  |
| The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:44 - Jul 25 with 2025 views | kropotkin41 |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:20 - Jul 25 by timcocking |
Very racist that. |
Not racist in the slightest, mate. In the first place, both Jews and Palestinians are Semitic peoples, genetically inseparable. In the second place, criticising Israel and Zionists is not anti-Jewish. In the third place, I happen to believe in boycotting Israel in the same way that South Africa was boycotted during the era of Apartheid there, calling for a boycott of Israel would include boycotting their sports people, just as it did with South Africa.
So, Tim Cocking, I'd quite like you to reconsider suggesting that I made a racist comment and, if you've got the bo**ocks for it, an apology would be nice.
As for my original post being called incredibly stupid by another post, that wouldn't be an argument, that would just be an insult. If you want a discussion, then discuss, otherwise keep it for the playground. |  |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:51 - Jul 25 with 1994 views | Pommyhoop |
Does anyone know when The Arabs hatred for Jews began.
I mean did it start with the land issues after WW2 or have they hated their guts like the rest of mankind since day dot | |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:54 - Jul 25 with 1988 views | ElHoop |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:37 - Jul 25 by N12Hoop |
There's a fundamental difference between casualties of war and systematically wiping out races of people through the use of gas chambers, using them for grotesque experiments and doing untold other unspeakable crimes. To accuse the Israelis of doing what the Nazi's did is ignorance beyond belief. |
Who cares? The Israelis aren't the ones who died in WW2. The Germans aren't the guilty party any more. The world moved on a long time ago or at least most of it did.
You stand or fall by what you do now, end of story. On current form Israel is falling. |  | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 01:03 - Jul 26 with 1878 views | MrSheen |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:44 - Jul 25 by kropotkin41 |
Not racist in the slightest, mate. In the first place, both Jews and Palestinians are Semitic peoples, genetically inseparable. In the second place, criticising Israel and Zionists is not anti-Jewish. In the third place, I happen to believe in boycotting Israel in the same way that South Africa was boycotted during the era of Apartheid there, calling for a boycott of Israel would include boycotting their sports people, just as it did with South Africa.
So, Tim Cocking, I'd quite like you to reconsider suggesting that I made a racist comment and, if you've got the bo**ocks for it, an apology would be nice.
As for my original post being called incredibly stupid by another post, that wouldn't be an argument, that would just be an insult. If you want a discussion, then discuss, otherwise keep it for the playground. |
I'm happy for a discussion, and I've given up insulting people on the internet, there's enough of that already. I can't agree with this:
Syria has been plunged into a war by proxy largely set off by the US policy of trying to dominate energy supplies in the Middle East and beyond.
I don't agree that the peoples of ancient and divided nations need to be manipulated by the US into taking up their old enmities. Surely the Syrian War is another manifestation of this earlier demonstration that the rule of the Assads relies on violence, and they are afraid of ceding any power given their narrow popular base.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_Massacre
You can't pin this on the Americans, surely? Moreover, the passivity of the Americans in the face of the Sunni invasion of Iraq suggests that with budget deficits, intervention fatigue and the discovery of domestic shale and oil gas, the US is less interested than for ages in dominating Middle East oil supplies.
On the right of return, I wholly understand the feeling of injustice of the Palestinians. However, why is the rest of the world not calling for the right of return of Greeks to Izmir/Smyrna, Italians to Rijeka/Fiume, Albanians to Epirus, Germans to Koeningsburg/Kaliningrad, Armenians to Van, etc? I'm not implying anti-semitism on the part of people who do this, but am curious as to why some displacements are accepted as faits accomplis, and others are still live issues. |  | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 05:15 - Jul 26 with 1838 views | timcocking |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:44 - Jul 25 by kropotkin41 |
Not racist in the slightest, mate. In the first place, both Jews and Palestinians are Semitic peoples, genetically inseparable. In the second place, criticising Israel and Zionists is not anti-Jewish. In the third place, I happen to believe in boycotting Israel in the same way that South Africa was boycotted during the era of Apartheid there, calling for a boycott of Israel would include boycotting their sports people, just as it did with South Africa.
So, Tim Cocking, I'd quite like you to reconsider suggesting that I made a racist comment and, if you've got the bo**ocks for it, an apology would be nice.
As for my original post being called incredibly stupid by another post, that wouldn't be an argument, that would just be an insult. If you want a discussion, then discuss, otherwise keep it for the playground. |
Apologies my friend, never my intention to upset anybody on here and I'm sure your not a racist at heart.
If I said I didn't think it was a racist comment, though, I'd be lying. I'll put it down to you getting a little carried away by what is a really sh!tty situation. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 07:08 - Jul 26 with 1814 views | BAWHoops |
Everyone is entitles to their view, but comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is a deplorable move.
Get educated before making such statements. It's Jew baiting clear and simple and I find it incredibly offensive. You are using an incredibly sensitive and emotional moment in a religions history to beat it with.
6 million Jews were killed.
They were taken out of Ghetto's sent to work camps and gassed to death. There are atrocities in Gaza, but nothing in the world at the moment is on the scale of Nazi Germany.
I am not defending what is going on in Gaza but it is NOT like Nazi Germany.Please retract that statement |  |
| http://blogandwhitehoops.wordpress.com/ |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 08:02 - Jul 26 with 1763 views | batmanhoop |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 07:08 - Jul 26 by BAWHoops |
Everyone is entitles to their view, but comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is a deplorable move.
Get educated before making such statements. It's Jew baiting clear and simple and I find it incredibly offensive. You are using an incredibly sensitive and emotional moment in a religions history to beat it with.
6 million Jews were killed.
They were taken out of Ghetto's sent to work camps and gassed to death. There are atrocities in Gaza, but nothing in the world at the moment is on the scale of Nazi Germany.
I am not defending what is going on in Gaza but it is NOT like Nazi Germany.Please retract that statement |
agree with this, thought Barton should keep his opinion to football matters, the venom spouted from both sides of the arguement on this and other Rangers forums seems to confirm my fears [Post edited 26 Jul 2014 8:04]
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 08:20 - Jul 26 with 1744 views | ingeminate |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:44 - Jul 25 by kropotkin41 |
Not racist in the slightest, mate. In the first place, both Jews and Palestinians are Semitic peoples, genetically inseparable. In the second place, criticising Israel and Zionists is not anti-Jewish. In the third place, I happen to believe in boycotting Israel in the same way that South Africa was boycotted during the era of Apartheid there, calling for a boycott of Israel would include boycotting their sports people, just as it did with South Africa.
So, Tim Cocking, I'd quite like you to reconsider suggesting that I made a racist comment and, if you've got the bo**ocks for it, an apology would be nice.
As for my original post being called incredibly stupid by another post, that wouldn't be an argument, that would just be an insult. If you want a discussion, then discuss, otherwise keep it for the playground. |
Saying someone should not play for qpr because they are Israeli is outrageous.
What about if they are Russian? Or maybe American? Or Chinese? Or one of the many other counties either at war or with a terrible human rights record. What is Argentina have another grab at the Falklands? Pack your bags Ali! Who gets to decide?
How about you don't punish individuals making their way in the world based on where they come Slash came from and focus on the political and religious leaders. |  |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 09:29 - Jul 26 with 1701 views | kropotkin41 |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 08:20 - Jul 26 by ingeminate |
Saying someone should not play for qpr because they are Israeli is outrageous.
What about if they are Russian? Or maybe American? Or Chinese? Or one of the many other counties either at war or with a terrible human rights record. What is Argentina have another grab at the Falklands? Pack your bags Ali! Who gets to decide?
How about you don't punish individuals making their way in the world based on where they come Slash came from and focus on the political and religious leaders. |
Well at least that's an argument and thanks for that. As it happens you're not in bad company, there are plenty of people who make reasoned arguments against boycotting Israel on those very grounds. However, just as I supported the boycott of South Africa because it was called for by the anti-Apartheid movement there, I support the boycott of Israel because it is called for by the Palestinians. So, I don't think that Israel should be allowed to play in international competitions and I don't think that Israeli players should be allowed to play abroad. If Israel doesn't like boycotts, that is to say if the boycott is effective enough, then there would be change. South Africans now enjoy full access to world sport and so could Israelis in a future without apartheid and genocide in Palestine/Israel.
Tim Cocking - merely repeating that you think my post was racist does not constitute an argument. I could re-state as many times as I like that the Earth is flat, it won't make it flat. I have explained why I wasn't racist and you haven't addressed that argument. I'll make it as straightforward as possible for you: I am in no way anti-Jewish, my problem is entirely with the State of Israel and with Zionism, there're plenty of Jewish people who feel the same way.
Those of you who believe the Israeli propaganda about Hamas using people as "human shields" - which, by the way, there is film of the IDF doing with Palestinian prisoners, you might care to read this: http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/07/jeremy-bowens-gaza-notebook-i- | |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 09:40 - Jul 26 with 1693 views | MrSheen |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 07:08 - Jul 26 by BAWHoops |
Everyone is entitles to their view, but comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is a deplorable move.
Get educated before making such statements. It's Jew baiting clear and simple and I find it incredibly offensive. You are using an incredibly sensitive and emotional moment in a religions history to beat it with.
6 million Jews were killed.
They were taken out of Ghetto's sent to work camps and gassed to death. There are atrocities in Gaza, but nothing in the world at the moment is on the scale of Nazi Germany.
I am not defending what is going on in Gaza but it is NOT like Nazi Germany.Please retract that statement |
I would imagine that 99% (98%? 97%?) of the people describing what is happening in Gaza as genocide are motivated by genuine horror at what is happening there. But I agree it is a false analogy. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 09:49 - Jul 26 with 1678 views | MrSheen |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 22:44 - Jul 25 by kropotkin41 |
Not racist in the slightest, mate. In the first place, both Jews and Palestinians are Semitic peoples, genetically inseparable. In the second place, criticising Israel and Zionists is not anti-Jewish. In the third place, I happen to believe in boycotting Israel in the same way that South Africa was boycotted during the era of Apartheid there, calling for a boycott of Israel would include boycotting their sports people, just as it did with South Africa.
So, Tim Cocking, I'd quite like you to reconsider suggesting that I made a racist comment and, if you've got the bo**ocks for it, an apology would be nice.
As for my original post being called incredibly stupid by another post, that wouldn't be an argument, that would just be an insult. If you want a discussion, then discuss, otherwise keep it for the playground. |
While South African sports teams were boycotted, their players never were. English cricket, at international and county level, was stuffed with men like Allen Lamb, Robin Smith, Chris Smith, Mike Procter, Barry Richards, Clive Rice, Garth Le Roux, Vincent van der Byl, etc,etc. So you are not asking for Israel to be boycotted in the same way. [Post edited 26 Jul 2014 9:50]
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:00 - Jul 26 with 1665 views | kropotkin41 |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 09:40 - Jul 26 by MrSheen |
I would imagine that 99% (98%? 97%?) of the people describing what is happening in Gaza as genocide are motivated by genuine horror at what is happening there. But I agree it is a false analogy. |
The Final Solution (to the "Jewish Question") was not put into action until 1942. Certainly there are parallels between the anti-Jewish policies of Nazi Germany and the anti-Palestinian policies of Israel and certainly some of the rhetoric of the most vehement Zionists.
It's worth knowing that one of the scenarios that the IDF use as a case-study for attacking Gaza is the Warsaw Ghetto Rising; they at least would not deny the analogous situation of the IDF to the Wehrmacht in Poland during WWII.
As for the question of genocide, it is an emotive term. Here are a couple of definitions:
gen·o·cide [jen-uh-sahyd] Show IPA
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
genocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd)
– n
the policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group
Now it seems to me that it should be pretty uncontroversial if we examine the history of the Nakba ( http://lostislamichistory.com/the-nakba-the-palestinian-catastrophe-of-1948/ ) and of Israeli policy since we find a deliberate attempt to wipe Palestine from the face of the Earth, often by killing Palestinians in large numbers. This is no different to what has in recent times been called ethnic cleansing, or what we properly call genocide. Even the Nazis were happy to see Jewish people leave in the early days, applying the Final Solution only when getting millions of Polish Jews to actually leave became impossible.
Yes, what Israel has done and is doing to Palestine is genocide, but much like whether it's right to compare these actions to those of Nazi Germany is right or not, these are academic questions; it is the plight of Palestine that is important, the deaths of its children that should move us........... even if only to boycott and speak up against selling arms to or investing in Israel. | |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:24 - Jul 26 with 1650 views | kropotkin41 |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 09:49 - Jul 26 by MrSheen |
While South African sports teams were boycotted, their players never were. English cricket, at international and county level, was stuffed with men like Allen Lamb, Robin Smith, Chris Smith, Mike Procter, Barry Richards, Clive Rice, Garth Le Roux, Vincent van der Byl, etc,etc. So you are not asking for Israel to be boycotted in the same way. [Post edited 26 Jul 2014 9:50]
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I was under the impression that the South Africans who left were actually British passport holders, or emigrated to other countries, Australia for example, in order to get around the ban. I think it was officially both South African teams and individuals who were banned. If individuals emigrate then fair enough, they've left the State that the boycott is against.
Oh here's an article that might interest some of you:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teen | |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:27 - Jul 26 with 1644 views | kysersosaqpr |
Reading the various comments on here, it struck me how most (not all) people seem to strike allegiances along differing polarity. One example of this is over in Belfast. My place of birth is a quite little place called Ardoyne. When last there I noticed Palestinian flags flying next to the tricolour. My cousin explained that the catholic areas generally fly the Palestinian flag next to the tricolour, and the Protestant areas fly the Israeli flag next to the Union Jack.
Weird eh | |
| The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. |
| |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:48 - Jul 26 with 1634 views | Watford_Ranger |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:00 - Jul 26 by kropotkin41 |
The Final Solution (to the "Jewish Question") was not put into action until 1942. Certainly there are parallels between the anti-Jewish policies of Nazi Germany and the anti-Palestinian policies of Israel and certainly some of the rhetoric of the most vehement Zionists.
It's worth knowing that one of the scenarios that the IDF use as a case-study for attacking Gaza is the Warsaw Ghetto Rising; they at least would not deny the analogous situation of the IDF to the Wehrmacht in Poland during WWII.
As for the question of genocide, it is an emotive term. Here are a couple of definitions:
gen·o·cide [jen-uh-sahyd] Show IPA
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
genocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd)
– n
the policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group
Now it seems to me that it should be pretty uncontroversial if we examine the history of the Nakba ( http://lostislamichistory.com/the-nakba-the-palestinian-catastrophe-of-1948/ ) and of Israeli policy since we find a deliberate attempt to wipe Palestine from the face of the Earth, often by killing Palestinians in large numbers. This is no different to what has in recent times been called ethnic cleansing, or what we properly call genocide. Even the Nazis were happy to see Jewish people leave in the early days, applying the Final Solution only when getting millions of Polish Jews to actually leave became impossible.
Yes, what Israel has done and is doing to Palestine is genocide, but much like whether it's right to compare these actions to those of Nazi Germany is right or not, these are academic questions; it is the plight of Palestine that is important, the deaths of its children that should move us........... even if only to boycott and speak up against selling arms to or investing in Israel. |
Mate, you can write the longest and most boring article in the world if you want. It won't change the fact that comparing Israel with Nazi Germany is ridiculous and wrong. There's no desire from Israelis/Jews to wipe out Muslims/Palestinians/Arabs (delete as you see fit). On the contrary, Hamas and others are intent on wiping Israel, and realistically Jews altogether, off the map.
Israel has to defend itself and put its own first. It is in an impossible situation. Hypothetically they could remove all restrictions on Gaza but then how long until that freedom is violently exploited? Probably about as long as it takes to write this post. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 11:33 - Jul 26 with 1597 views | MrSheen |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:24 - Jul 26 by kropotkin41 |
I was under the impression that the South Africans who left were actually British passport holders, or emigrated to other countries, Australia for example, in order to get around the ban. I think it was officially both South African teams and individuals who were banned. If individuals emigrate then fair enough, they've left the State that the boycott is against.
Oh here's an article that might interest some of you:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teen |
Some played for England, but others didn't. Richards and Procter had played for South Africa before their test ban, Rice, Le Roux etc hadn't. They played here as overseas players, eg Richards partnered Gordon Greenidge at Hampshire for donkeys' years. | | | |
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