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Sorry dolcelatte, it's easy to disagree with most of that, especially the part of your post that comments on the state of AF in the short-term.
Your post overall seems to contain a lot of opinion, some questionable extrapolation from personal experience, and a fair bit of supposition and assumption too. Shooting in the dark,like us all,shirley? Have any of us really got much of an expert ITK scrappy-do?
Let's try and look at some cold hard facts. A mere 6 days ago Senor El paesan hombre Ale Faurlin was made Man of the Match for his performance against Wigan Athletic. Look very carefully and meticulously to coin a certain sparkless phrase - using freeze frame and rewind if you must - at the following YouTube video recording every touch of the ball AF made in 2 minutes 1 second and ask yourself the following questions:
(1) Was he exposed for pace?
(2) Did he ever get caught in possession?
{Some opinion & illustrative analysis needed here : I think HR finally lost all patience with Karl Henry (& I doubt if we'd see him first choice for a while if we were not so hit by injuries) for the criminal immobility he showed in getting caught in possession allowing the Clarets a fast break for the crucial match-turning opening goal at Turf Moor on 65 minutes on 26th October. Another thing to note is that Barton who has otherwise been in great form in many other facets of his game has been shown up for lack of pace whilst defending too deep several times of late e.g. clumsy challenge towards his own goal enabling Millwall's last minute equaliser,Burnley's 2nd goal penalty was down to his slow clumsy challenge, and thirdly he nearly gifted Derby a straightforward goal in the 1st half after losing the ball on the D of the area.}
(3) Did he flinch from or bottle any challenge that came his way?
{No fear shown whatsoever,as all can see he wholeheartedly wins three tackles.}
(4) Did any of his passes go astray or were intercepted ?
Well surely it's inarguable that any objective independent, non-partisan, objective non-sentimental observer with functioning 20/20 vision has only one way of responding to those 4 questions? That would be :
(1)No (2)No (3)No (4)No
*"you can safely say he will never get back to the state he is now" [sic] (I presume you mean as of the 76th minute v Derby County immediately prior to the injury.) No supporting evidence or fact there,mere supposition; extrapolating from your own personal experience. Hunter safely says he can. Why should I believe your opinion more than his?
"Simple fact is he is not the same player he was before the first one." Never mind the veracity or rightness of your opinion,that opinion is nevertheless still opinion not fact. I think actually that like Gallen post his awful scoring leg-break at Pompey on August 23rd 1996, AF had lost pace undoubtedly of course but he was showing encoraging signs of learning how to adapt his game effectively. In the nightmare 2 seasons in the Prem his standout perfs for me were in the 2-1 loss at Spuds and the 3-2 home loss to City the season before....
MID OVERLONG POST DOUBTS BREAK ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Ah nuts!... ..suffice to say even though I enjoyed your excellent spelling and authoratitive yet misguided style and unimpeachable syntax & grammar, dolcelatte my fellow Hoop, I think you're substantially wrong in most of your opinions and conclusions in that comment. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Let's get back on track and break down a few more of the misassumptions of your post -
***"too many people are remembering the player he was before the first ACL." No,I am looking at the facts of the performance of the player who was MOM at the DW Stadium just six days ago. "History is bunk" as hard-headed pioneering capitalist motor car tycoon Henry Ford in around 1920 unsentimentally said.
***According to accumulated LFW punter rankings he is MOM v Derby too - is this merely a "sympathy vote" ?
I personally would have Matty Phillips or Joseph Barton ahead of him but then again I think it's pretty reasonable to say he was,at worst, the third most effective R in the match that the whole team played well in and that's none too shabby.
Out of 36 LFW punters votes cast, Faurlin gets 7.8, Barton 7.5, and Philips 7.7..so not much in it. Unsentimental, even-handed Clive makes Barton MOM with 8 but the only other R's player he gives 8 to is Alejandro Faurlin.
Football brain is very important in his ability to adapt,I agree. As Ray Wilkins himself said he never had any pace to lose,but what an effective Director of Operations of our midfield he was in his magnificent 1990-1995 near 200 appearance playing spell at Loftus Road even if he was slow as fook ; who needs running when you can pass like that? Like Faurlin he could play easy accurate passes to feet ,as BTW can a lot of Harry's current first choice front six,Niko being the cherry on the top of that, with his fabulous careful caressing passing accuracy.
A solid defence is a basic first and then possession is all with Harry's current highly promising squad. None of that old-fashioned Tony Pulis,Dave Bassett,Graham Taylor,John Beck with their 1950's FA coach Charles Hughes inspired "get it in the mixer,play it long,it's all about the dead-ball set pieces,aerial hoofball" Position Of Maximum Opportunity (POMO) rubbish.
"give him a two year contract but on a lesser wage say £7-10,000 a week with improvesments once he has proved his fitness
i still remember the way macca was shown the door after all those years of service then finally got back in with waddock only to be shown door again
theres very little love in football when it comes to money
even £10,000 a week would add up to over half a million a season
I we are promoted we could easily take the gamble on him but if we dont go up i can see us needed to make serious cuts
glad its his other leg ,if same one i would really fear that he was finished but he's cme back strong and can now come back stronger! "
You didn't say anything about "BUT if up to me then no new contract as not worth the gamble". In fact your first sentence alludes to the fact that you would be happy giving him a two year deal on 7 to 10 grand a week, no? Obviously that's not what you meant, but don't just make stuff up. Just say "sorry, what I meant to say was....."
right i'll try nd make it a bit simpler/clearer cutting out the macca bits
give him a two year contract but on a lesser wage say £7-10,000 a week with improvesments once he has proved his fitness
I(F) we are promoted we could easily take the gamble on him but if we dont go up i can see us needed to make serious cuts
(as others have stated he has a contract till end of season anyhow ,should be fully fit again by next november so IF given a new two year contract would be fit by 3-4 month of it)
if we are promoted and getting 70 odd million why not take the chance on him for half a mill
if we dont get promoted then cuts must be made and sadly he will be one of them
>>>>> The rest of my deleted reply was off-topic and didn't mention Faurlin once. Even if it's nice to know what logorrhoea means.<<<<<
[Post edited 6 Nov 2013 5:12]
'I'm 18 with a bullet.Got my finger on the trigger,I'm gonna pull it.."
Love,Peace and Fook Chelski!
More like 20StoneOfHoop now.
Let's face it I'm not getting any thinner.
Pass the cake and pies please.
>>>>> The rest of my deleted reply was off-topic and didn't mention Faurlin once. Even if it's nice to know what logorrhoea means.<<<<<
[Post edited 6 Nov 2013 5:12]
Hunter - I bow to your knowledge of NFL - I know nothing of such sports involving odd shaped balls. To be fair in hindsight I suppose it does depend on the sport. Athletics is one were hardly anyone ever comes back properly. I am struggling to think of footballers who have come back at the same or better levels.
But my point remains - it has taken Faurlin around 21 months from the time of the first ACL to have a couple of decent games on the trot sue to the recovery then adaption phase. Given the mental pressures of both knees having had ACL if he were to take another 21 months from now then would be looking at the season after next before we see anything decent from him. All what if's of course but sentiment is for football fans by and large. And I still say love him but no contract as it is too much of a risk.
Hunter - I bow to your knowledge of NFL - I know nothing of such sports involving odd shaped balls. To be fair in hindsight I suppose it does depend on the sport. Athletics is one were hardly anyone ever comes back properly. I am struggling to think of footballers who have come back at the same or better levels.
But my point remains - it has taken Faurlin around 21 months from the time of the first ACL to have a couple of decent games on the trot sue to the recovery then adaption phase. Given the mental pressures of both knees having had ACL if he were to take another 21 months from now then would be looking at the season after next before we see anything decent from him. All what if's of course but sentiment is for football fans by and large. And I still say love him but no contract as it is too much of a risk.
18 stone - we'll just agree to disagree
I get what you're saying. I honestly do. It certainly isn't "easy" to come back strong and like you were.
With the 21 month thing, my only challenge to that and the general consensus regarding his performances post ACL are there has been a bit of revisionism going on here.
Remember Chelsea at home early in the second season (0-0), followed by Spurs away (that harsh 2-1 loss). Ale played CM in both games and was superb. Everyone thought he and Granero were going to be the mutt's nuts (shows what we all know!) after those two games. But the point is he reached the level he was at before ACL injury inside 9 months. It was 2 successive games of excellence performance against top class opposition in a 4 man midfield.
At that point everyone was happy with his recovery. He played a further 2 solid performances before the nightmare game against West Ham and their midfield of giants. Then Hughes ditched him until 'Arry came in. He then had a great game at home to Fulham before 'Arry ditched him.
Point is, he did show in games that he can reach the levels of pre-ACL injury. The issue was he didn't do it permanently. I would suggest, this is more down to other external factors to the injury: team playing badly, changing midfield partners, bad dressing room attitude, not trusted by managers or given a real chance, etc, etc and possibly that his conditioning and strength rehab wasn't quite completed before he returned.
Point being, he showed the question wasn't "Can he reach the level he was at"...he did, so he can. The question is "why didn't he maintain that every week for the whole season?" Lots of possible reasons.
Again, I think a one year deal is worth finding that out the second time to see if those factors are no longer there.
I'm all in favour of retaining Faurlin's registration with a view to seeing whether he can return to a fitness level that matches the level we are playing. However, there needs to be a reality check about contract lengths and wage levels - both on here and at Board room level. The average wages in the Championship is around £7k per week. That's for a player who is likely to be available for at least 30 games per season.
Faurlin is unlikely to be match fit for the start of next season and, it's questionable if he can recover sufficiently to make any sort of contribution until the end of 2014. I don't take any pleasure from that assessment but, if we are going to look after him, a sensible business decision also needs to be made, not just a sentimental one.
I'd be looking at a 6 month deal with another 6 month option and wages around £1k per week not the 7-10K some were mentioning.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky
It's not "fact" in any shape that you "lose pace". It's a misconception that all players do. Some do, some don't. And often you can't distinguish those that do, from just being a year older, especially for players picking it up at the end of the career.
Adrian Peterson, the best running back (yes, running!) in the NFL, ruptured his ACL. He's come back, quicker and stronger with improved stats and his role involves enormous around of lateral cuts and high impact collisions.
Besides, surely he point that pace wasn't a key part of his game means it's not that much of an issue if he is a player that loses a little when he returns??
Would you give Onouha a place in the Prem squad if he tears his other hamstring in pre-season? Would you give AJ a place if he picks up a niggle? In both situations they'd miss no more of next season that Ale will....and he will be fully healed by the time he season starts, just lacking in match sharpness, which I've included in the Oct 'ready' time.
ACL rehab is as much mental as anything else. Whilst some players do struggle to overocme it and don't go in "as hard" or feel as confident, there are plenty of examples of people who come back as good as they were or better. Different people approach it differently.
But from a purely medical perspective, surgery and rehab have developed so much in the last 10 years that, providing there's no complications in surgery, with thorough 'full time', attentive rehab (all of which he'll get) there is no reason why "physically" he won't be as fit and strong as he's ever been. It's a football misconception steeped in evidence that is out of date, that "they're never the same player".
Peterson actually blew out both ligaments, he is superhuman though! look at the touchdown he scored on Sunday:
I'm with Hunter. He could be okay by next October missing just 12 odd games.Whats the other option? give him away to another rival for free or peanuts at the end of his contract when he is nearly recovered?. A shrewd club would see we have done the majority of the reahab and reconstruction on Ali and would pick up a bloody good midfielder for f@ck all for the sake of waiting a month or two.
Its probably academic anyway because Ali is just not fancied by H fit or not.( F@ck knows why but thats the case)
If anything is going to get Ale back it is the club looking after his immediate future and the fans and players encouragement throughout his rehabilitation. I think the kid should do his coaching badges, just to give himself options. If playing is going to be hard I would like to see him working with players as a coach. He is so popular with the players and staff and is a bright lad with a great footballing brain.
Redknapp said: “I’d have to speak to the owners, but you wouldn’t bomb a player out because he’s injured. That’s not something that you’d do.
“You don’t cast him to one side without a contract because he’s not fit. The people who own this club wouldn’t do that — not a chance.”
Jon,I reckon that's four of the sweetest sentences to come out of Harry's gob since he's been here. Action speaks a lot louder than words,of course, but I still say nuts to all those posters above who say FOOTBALL IS merely and always a flinty-hearted,stone-cold unemotional,unsentimental BUSINESS. TF et al on the board, will do whatever's necessary to see Ale right or I'll start supporting The Scum.
'I'm 18 with a bullet.Got my finger on the trigger,I'm gonna pull it.."
Love,Peace and Fook Chelski!
More like 20StoneOfHoop now.
Let's face it I'm not getting any thinner.
Pass the cake and pies please.
He was just looking like the Ale of old, and then this. Alongside Barton, comfortably the best midfield pairing in the Championship.
Speaking to TF(namedrop) after the Derby game, we both concurred in our chat that we were gutted, and Tony said that the club will look after him.
I do find it odd how some don't realise how good he was for us. Kenny, Hill, Walker, Gorkss, Derry, Mackie, Routledge, Helguson, Smith etc were all excellent but Ale and Adel were head and shoulders better than anything else in the Championship in '10-'11. Ale carried it on in the Premiership until his injury at MK Dons. I recall saying as he was stretchered off, 'If he's fuc ked, then so are we.' (Originally attributed to T.Hardy 1886, after the Dorset derby, Dorchester v Tolpuddle.)
I get what you're saying. I honestly do. It certainly isn't "easy" to come back strong and like you were.
With the 21 month thing, my only challenge to that and the general consensus regarding his performances post ACL are there has been a bit of revisionism going on here.
Remember Chelsea at home early in the second season (0-0), followed by Spurs away (that harsh 2-1 loss). Ale played CM in both games and was superb. Everyone thought he and Granero were going to be the mutt's nuts (shows what we all know!) after those two games. But the point is he reached the level he was at before ACL injury inside 9 months. It was 2 successive games of excellence performance against top class opposition in a 4 man midfield.
At that point everyone was happy with his recovery. He played a further 2 solid performances before the nightmare game against West Ham and their midfield of giants. Then Hughes ditched him until 'Arry came in. He then had a great game at home to Fulham before 'Arry ditched him.
Point is, he did show in games that he can reach the levels of pre-ACL injury. The issue was he didn't do it permanently. I would suggest, this is more down to other external factors to the injury: team playing badly, changing midfield partners, bad dressing room attitude, not trusted by managers or given a real chance, etc, etc and possibly that his conditioning and strength rehab wasn't quite completed before he returned.
Point being, he showed the question wasn't "Can he reach the level he was at"...he did, so he can. The question is "why didn't he maintain that every week for the whole season?" Lots of possible reasons.
Again, I think a one year deal is worth finding that out the second time to see if those factors are no longer there.
At last someone who remembers, like me, how good Ale was early last season. He should have been allowed one under-performance (West Ham) when everyone that night was cack anyway and Hughes' tactics were horribly exposed and he was much more culpable than Faurlin that night.
Hughes broke him, Hughes f*cked Granero who was also really good until he wasted him at Stoke. Any wonder he might have lost confidence. First game this season he was magnificent home to Sheff Wed, carried Henry (who is utter, utter shite) and still people keep saying 'not as good as he was'. We should have built the whole bloody midfield around him, not messed him up.
He has done nothing ever than give us 100% on the field, complete loyalty and of course he should be given a contract. Shame on our club if we don't.
I get what you're saying. I honestly do. It certainly isn't "easy" to come back strong and like you were.
With the 21 month thing, my only challenge to that and the general consensus regarding his performances post ACL are there has been a bit of revisionism going on here.
Remember Chelsea at home early in the second season (0-0), followed by Spurs away (that harsh 2-1 loss). Ale played CM in both games and was superb. Everyone thought he and Granero were going to be the mutt's nuts (shows what we all know!) after those two games. But the point is he reached the level he was at before ACL injury inside 9 months. It was 2 successive games of excellence performance against top class opposition in a 4 man midfield.
At that point everyone was happy with his recovery. He played a further 2 solid performances before the nightmare game against West Ham and their midfield of giants. Then Hughes ditched him until 'Arry came in. He then had a great game at home to Fulham before 'Arry ditched him.
Point is, he did show in games that he can reach the levels of pre-ACL injury. The issue was he didn't do it permanently. I would suggest, this is more down to other external factors to the injury: team playing badly, changing midfield partners, bad dressing room attitude, not trusted by managers or given a real chance, etc, etc and possibly that his conditioning and strength rehab wasn't quite completed before he returned.
Point being, he showed the question wasn't "Can he reach the level he was at"...he did, so he can. The question is "why didn't he maintain that every week for the whole season?" Lots of possible reasons.
Again, I think a one year deal is worth finding that out the second time to see if those factors are no longer there.
this. the Wet Spam was a joke and all down to Hughes. granero saw their midfield and shit himself. Ali was left with 2 midget wingers and a scared pirate for support.....
so Hughes dropped him!
never given a fair crack at it last season and possibly rushed back a bit too quickly. He and Barton looked like the ideal partnership and complemented each other well.
Sorry dolcelatte, it's easy to disagree with most of that, especially the part of your post that comments on the state of AF in the short-term.
Your post overall seems to contain a lot of opinion, some questionable extrapolation from personal experience, and a fair bit of supposition and assumption too. Shooting in the dark,like us all,shirley? Have any of us really got much of an expert ITK scrappy-do?
Let's try and look at some cold hard facts. A mere 6 days ago Senor El paesan hombre Ale Faurlin was made Man of the Match for his performance against Wigan Athletic. Look very carefully and meticulously to coin a certain sparkless phrase - using freeze frame and rewind if you must - at the following YouTube video recording every touch of the ball AF made in 2 minutes 1 second and ask yourself the following questions:
(1) Was he exposed for pace?
(2) Did he ever get caught in possession?
{Some opinion & illustrative analysis needed here : I think HR finally lost all patience with Karl Henry (& I doubt if we'd see him first choice for a while if we were not so hit by injuries) for the criminal immobility he showed in getting caught in possession allowing the Clarets a fast break for the crucial match-turning opening goal at Turf Moor on 65 minutes on 26th October. Another thing to note is that Barton who has otherwise been in great form in many other facets of his game has been shown up for lack of pace whilst defending too deep several times of late e.g. clumsy challenge towards his own goal enabling Millwall's last minute equaliser,Burnley's 2nd goal penalty was down to his slow clumsy challenge, and thirdly he nearly gifted Derby a straightforward goal in the 1st half after losing the ball on the D of the area.}
(3) Did he flinch from or bottle any challenge that came his way?
{No fear shown whatsoever,as all can see he wholeheartedly wins three tackles.}
(4) Did any of his passes go astray or were intercepted ?
Well surely it's inarguable that any objective independent, non-partisan, objective non-sentimental observer with functioning 20/20 vision has only one way of responding to those 4 questions? That would be :
(1)No (2)No (3)No (4)No
*"you can safely say he will never get back to the state he is now" [sic] (I presume you mean as of the 76th minute v Derby County immediately prior to the injury.) No supporting evidence or fact there,mere supposition; extrapolating from your own personal experience. Hunter safely says he can. Why should I believe your opinion more than his?
"Simple fact is he is not the same player he was before the first one." Never mind the veracity or rightness of your opinion,that opinion is nevertheless still opinion not fact. I think actually that like Gallen post his awful scoring leg-break at Pompey on August 23rd 1996, AF had lost pace undoubtedly of course but he was showing encoraging signs of learning how to adapt his game effectively. In the nightmare 2 seasons in the Prem his standout perfs for me were in the 2-1 loss at Spuds and the 3-2 home loss to City the season before....
MID OVERLONG POST DOUBTS BREAK ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Ah nuts!... ..suffice to say even though I enjoyed your excellent spelling and authoratitive yet misguided style and unimpeachable syntax & grammar, dolcelatte my fellow Hoop, I think you're substantially wrong in most of your opinions and conclusions in that comment. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Let's get back on track and break down a few more of the misassumptions of your post -
***"too many people are remembering the player he was before the first ACL." No,I am looking at the facts of the performance of the player who was MOM at the DW Stadium just six days ago. "History is bunk" as hard-headed pioneering capitalist motor car tycoon Henry Ford in around 1920 unsentimentally said.
***According to accumulated LFW punter rankings he is MOM v Derby too - is this merely a "sympathy vote" ?
I personally would have Matty Phillips or Joseph Barton ahead of him but then again I think it's pretty reasonable to say he was,at worst, the third most effective R in the match that the whole team played well in and that's none too shabby.
Out of 36 LFW punters votes cast, Faurlin gets 7.8, Barton 7.5, and Philips 7.7..so not much in it. Unsentimental, even-handed Clive makes Barton MOM with 8 but the only other R's player he gives 8 to is Alejandro Faurlin.
Football brain is very important in his ability to adapt,I agree. As Ray Wilkins himself said he never had any pace to lose,but what an effective Director of Operations of our midfield he was in his magnificent 1990-1995 near 200 appearance playing spell at Loftus Road even if he was slow as fook ; who needs running when you can pass like that? Like Faurlin he could play easy accurate passes to feet ,as BTW can a lot of Harry's current first choice front six,Niko being the cherry on the top of that, with his fabulous careful caressing passing accuracy.
A solid defence is a basic first and then possession is all with Harry's current highly promising squad. None of that old-fashioned Tony Pulis,Dave Bassett,Graham Taylor,John Beck with their 1950's FA coach Charles Hughes inspired "get it in the mixer,play it long,it's all about the dead-ball set pieces,aerial hoofball" Position Of Maximum Opportunity (POMO) rubbish.
[Post edited 6 Nov 2013 4:20]
The interception he makes at 1:09 in the video is exceptional!
RFA
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
Queens Park Rangers midfielder Alejandro Faurlin is recovering in Barcelona after an operation on his left knee.
The 27-year-old ruptured his anterior cruciate ligament playing against Derby County on 2 November, and QPR's head of medical services Dr Peter Florida says: "He really appreciates all the messages he has received from the fans and his team-mates. It has really helped to lift him. He was obviously very upset immediately afterwards but his spirits are much better now.
"His knee is obviously still a bit sore but he is doing well. He will be staying out there [Spain] for a few weeks."
Looks like Forest suffer under the exact same circumstances.
Nottingham Forest captain Chris Cohen is ruled out for the rest of the season through injury.
The 26-year-old sustained cruciate knee ligament damage during Saturday's draw with Burnley and has been told he will miss the rest of the 2013-14 campaign.
It has also emerged the injury is not a recurrence of the knee problem he sustained against Derby in 2011, which kept him out for 11 months.
Looks like Forest suffer under the exact same circumstances.
Nottingham Forest captain Chris Cohen is ruled out for the rest of the season through injury.
The 26-year-old sustained cruciate knee ligament damage during Saturday's draw with Burnley and has been told he will miss the rest of the 2013-14 campaign.
It has also emerged the injury is not a recurrence of the knee problem he sustained against Derby in 2011, which kept him out for 11 months.
That's going to disappoint those who think serious injuries only happen to us.
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