| Responsibility & Scapegoats 12:11 - Aug 18 with 3006 views | Kerouac |
Since Martin has been here I have witnessed sustained scapegoat campaigns (or mini campaigns) on Swans fans forums against the following players;
- Bennett
- Bidwell
- Christie
- Cabango
- Williams (Loanee from Liverpool)
- Grimes
- Fulton
- Patterson
- Obafemi
- Piroe
...we have also been told (at various times) that Hamer, Benda, Latibeaudiere, Manning, Smith, Ntcham, Garrick, Joseph, Whittaker, Cullen & Ogbeta are all not good enough.
Let's take a look in the mirror, let's be honest with ourselves and let's be really clear...
the person responsible for the squad and the team, the person responsible for the way the team performs, the way we attack, the way we defend, the formation, the substitutions and our game management is...you guessed it, THE MANAGER...one RUSSELL MARTIN [Post edited 18 Aug 2022 12:12]
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 12:17 - Aug 18 with 2984 views | magicdaps10 |
Hello
I was waiting for you or AC to turn up.
There's a suprise...... Fans having a go at players and the manager.
So what you ate saying
When at a game, don't shout at the players for mistakes only shout at the manager.
So when Obafemi scores, we should sing Russell Martin's name.
🤦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸
This could be the dullest OP in history on this forum, you really haven't thought this one through have you..........posting in anger without much thought with this one K. |  |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 12:18 - Aug 18 with 2972 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Don’t forget the grass, the bus, the existence of a break, the absence of a break, the age of players, budgets, Covid and the fans.
I’ve probably missed some out. |  |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 12:21 - Aug 18 with 2961 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 12:17 - Aug 18 by magicdaps10 |
Hello
I was waiting for you or AC to turn up.
There's a suprise...... Fans having a go at players and the manager.
So what you ate saying
When at a game, don't shout at the players for mistakes only shout at the manager.
So when Obafemi scores, we should sing Russell Martin's name.
🤦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸
This could be the dullest OP in history on this forum, you really haven't thought this one through have you..........posting in anger without much thought with this one K. |
You wait on forums for posters to turn up?  | |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 12:28 - Aug 18 with 2951 views | Kerouac |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 12:17 - Aug 18 by magicdaps10 |
Hello
I was waiting for you or AC to turn up.
There's a suprise...... Fans having a go at players and the manager.
So what you ate saying
When at a game, don't shout at the players for mistakes only shout at the manager.
So when Obafemi scores, we should sing Russell Martin's name.
🤦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸
This could be the dullest OP in history on this forum, you really haven't thought this one through have you..........posting in anger without much thought with this one K. |
I have expressed myself clearly.
If you don't understand what I wrote, that's on you. | |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 12:47 - Aug 18 with 2906 views | BryanSwan |
I think you are scapegoating Martin now, as he was not responsible for being put in charge. |  |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 13:01 - Aug 18 with 2875 views | Kerouac |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 12:47 - Aug 18 by BryanSwan |
I think you are scapegoating Martin now, as he was not responsible for being put in charge. |
The clue is in the job title. | |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 13:36 - Aug 18 with 2844 views | BryanSwan |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 13:01 - Aug 18 by Kerouac |
The clue is in the job title. |
Chairman? | |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 13:42 - Aug 18 with 2827 views | pete |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 13:36 - Aug 18 by BryanSwan |
Chairman? |
owners | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 14:08 - Aug 18 with 2780 views | onehunglow |
K
I really do not agree with scapegoat being an aposite word to describe players who are below par.I can recall literally thousands in my lifetime of players who have been criticised in many sports.It is not scapegoating whatsoever,merely comment.
Sometimes,the player is persistent in his ineffectiveness and fans get annoyed.We might as well empty the stadia if they get upset about getting stick.Most laugh the rocks off at fans anyway,not even bothering to look at kids whilst scrawling their autograph.Many these days have pretty much open contempt for those who get a fraction of what they are paid yet they contribute to their grotesque salaries which are utterly undeserved,so no I have no sympathy,empathy or time for most of them.
Having said that,Martin's treatment of Whittaker ,Joseph ,Ogbeta,Fulton,Bennett smacks of scapegoating .
On this site,many are keen to portray themselves as a super fan who enjoy ,actually enjoy,a game that is literally thrown away in two mins in injury time.
If we 're talking fans and their clueslessness then we need to look no further when we have people purporting to be fans that state that.
No fan enjoys a game lost
All fans enjoy wins
It's that simple
No analysis ,no stats,no charts. | |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 15:12 - Aug 18 with 2760 views | Treforys_Jack |
Any reason you missed out Fisher or Woodman who have been the most vilified on here by some. |  | | |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 15:29 - Aug 18 with 2717 views | onehunglow |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 15:12 - Aug 18 by Treforys_Jack |
Any reason you missed out Fisher or Woodman who have been the most vilified on here by some. |
Probably too self evident | |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 16:08 - Aug 18 with 2688 views | Kerouac |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 15:12 - Aug 18 by Treforys_Jack |
Any reason you missed out Fisher or Woodman who have been the most vilified on here by some. |
Forgot about Woodman but Fisher is not being scapegoated.
He has dropped clanger after clanger and the fans are merely pointing out the obvious...the logic of the Martinistas goes something like;
- if Piroe hasn't scored for a few games he needs dropping to teach him a lesson
- If Fisher makes mistake after mistake for 6 months, he needs to be first name on the team sheet and needs defending from criticism (to protect Martin from criticism in turn, principally).
Therefore Fisher is not being scapegoated whereas someone like Piroe or Grimes, is. | |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 16:11 - Aug 18 with 2671 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
People have always been clueless about players though. Remember the criticism Jason Scotland used to get for being “lazy”? People actually wanted him dropped for Gwillym Bauza because he ran around more. They conveniently ignored the fact that in terms of goals per game Scotland is probably the best striker we have ever had. What was it? 55 goals in 2 seasons? Phenomenal. But Bauza works harder. |  |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 16:35 - Aug 18 with 2631 views | Kerouac |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 16:11 - Aug 18 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
People have always been clueless about players though. Remember the criticism Jason Scotland used to get for being “lazy”? People actually wanted him dropped for Gwillym Bauza because he ran around more. They conveniently ignored the fact that in terms of goals per game Scotland is probably the best striker we have ever had. What was it? 55 goals in 2 seasons? Phenomenal. But Bauza works harder. |
True.
People will say; "Yeah but it's a game of opinions, everyone is entitled to their opinion"
Which they are...but whose opinion holds most value depends on their track record.
Just as who is a good player and who is a bad player depends on their record.
Just as who is a good Manager/Coach and who is a bad Manager/Coach depends on their record.
Your record doesn't lie, it ceases to be in the realm of opinion and starts to take the form of fact.
E.g.
- Jason Scotland's scoring stats
- Matt Grimes captaining a Championship team into the play-offs twice
- Piroe's scoring record
- Cooper's track record of winning a World Cup, leading us to the play-offs twice and taking Forest up.
...at that point opinion's don't mean sh*t, and people who defend their cherished opinions in the face of hard evidence are in fact just defending their own egos.
Everybody gets stuff wrong, I have made some whoppers. I told a Man Utd supporting friend of mine that Beckham looked "bang average" when he was young and was just getting his fist 5-10 games in the first team.
Some of us are able to recognise when we are wrong and revise our opinions, think about why we got that one wrong...examine our own flaws...and that is the key to success (in your day to day life - not talking about being a football fan here).
Others are happy to remain deluded and take anything that challenges their opinions as personal attacks.
Our society has far, far, too many people who think like that now, too many narcissistic 'adults' who never grew up and are an emotional mess...which is why I'm so pessimistic for the future.
British people used to be described as 'Stoic', we were successful when we were 'stoic'. | |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 17:13 - Aug 18 with 2567 views | Treforys_Jack |
Piroe is trying hard, just not quite coming off for him, he was a slow starter last season as well wasn't he ? | | | |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 18:04 - Aug 18 with 2524 views | jack247 |
Since Martin has been here?
Under Cooper, the same could be said for
Ayew
Naughton
Guehi
Lowe
Woodman
Routledge
Dhanda
Under Potter
Celina
James
Baston
Van der Hoorn
Nordfeldt
As well as some mentioned in the original post. If we go further back, the likes of Ki, Shelvey and Abraham regularly used to take hammerings.
That’s not a Russell Martin or a Swansea City thing. It’s the nature of message boards, particularly when fans with differing opinions put their views across.
Ten Hag has been in post a couple of weeks. They’ve played two league games. Wouldn’t surprise me if every single first team player has been roasted on their sites in that time.
Plenty of things to validly criticise Russell Martin for. Teams barely having to attack us, when they can just wait for the loose pass that leaves us wide open or the inability to counter quick enough that the opposition can’t get 8 men behind the ball would be my choices. Fans slagging off players on the internet was here before him and it will be here after him. | | | |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 18:15 - Aug 18 with 2499 views | Kerouac |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 18:04 - Aug 18 by jack247 |
Since Martin has been here?
Under Cooper, the same could be said for
Ayew
Naughton
Guehi
Lowe
Woodman
Routledge
Dhanda
Under Potter
Celina
James
Baston
Van der Hoorn
Nordfeldt
As well as some mentioned in the original post. If we go further back, the likes of Ki, Shelvey and Abraham regularly used to take hammerings.
That’s not a Russell Martin or a Swansea City thing. It’s the nature of message boards, particularly when fans with differing opinions put their views across.
Ten Hag has been in post a couple of weeks. They’ve played two league games. Wouldn’t surprise me if every single first team player has been roasted on their sites in that time.
Plenty of things to validly criticise Russell Martin for. Teams barely having to attack us, when they can just wait for the loose pass that leaves us wide open or the inability to counter quick enough that the opposition can’t get 8 men behind the ball would be my choices. Fans slagging off players on the internet was here before him and it will be here after him. |
Fans criticise players.
Managers aren't suppose to criticise their players publicly though, not if they want them to perform better they don't anyway...Martin does.
Also, it is one thing criticising a player who is not your favourite and you feel needs replacing...quite another thing holding that player to account for things that the manager is responsible for, such as game management...or not playing the ball forward enough when the manager has set the team up in a manner which prevents this. | |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 18:45 - Aug 18 with 2472 views | ItchySphincter |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 12:18 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus |
Don’t forget the grass, the bus, the existence of a break, the absence of a break, the age of players, budgets, Covid and the fans.
I’ve probably missed some out. |
Brexit.
Happy to help. |  |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 18:48 - Aug 18 with 2469 views | jack247 |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 18:15 - Aug 18 by Kerouac |
Fans criticise players.
Managers aren't suppose to criticise their players publicly though, not if they want them to perform better they don't anyway...Martin does.
Also, it is one thing criticising a player who is not your favourite and you feel needs replacing...quite another thing holding that player to account for things that the manager is responsible for, such as game management...or not playing the ball forward enough when the manager has set the team up in a manner which prevents this. |
I can’t say I’m a fan of that. I think Paterson absolutely deserved calling out, but in general, I think that sort of thing should be kept in house. It’s a valid criticism of Martin.
That’s not what your original post was about though, it was about various degrees of scapegoating, which all the players I mentioned, plus several others (Asoro, Bony second time, Sanches, Mesa and plenty more if I looked back at squads) have had, just the same as the players on your list.
Edit - forgot to say, the players I mentioned in this post arguably deserved it. [Post edited 18 Aug 2022 18:49]
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 18:55 - Aug 18 with 2453 views | magicdaps10 |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 18:45 - Aug 18 by ItchySphincter |
Brexit.
Happy to help. |
Sorry all.
Original post, thought I was in the energy price post.
👠[Post edited 18 Aug 2022 18:58]
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 22:04 - Aug 18 with 2385 views | AndyCole |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 18:15 - Aug 18 by Kerouac |
Fans criticise players.
Managers aren't suppose to criticise their players publicly though, not if they want them to perform better they don't anyway...Martin does.
Also, it is one thing criticising a player who is not your favourite and you feel needs replacing...quite another thing holding that player to account for things that the manager is responsible for, such as game management...or not playing the ball forward enough when the manager has set the team up in a manner which prevents this. |
We are already seeing a seismic change in the past two games, where scapegoating and lack of accountability and responsibility will be so yesteryear.
Responsibility: Allen-Grimes axis has already clearly taken responsibility of the more progressive game plan, in strategy and execution. With Allen-Grimes, Martin can simply focus on what he does best. | |
| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 11:22 - Aug 19 with 2273 views | jack247 |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 22:04 - Aug 18 by AndyCole |
We are already seeing a seismic change in the past two games, where scapegoating and lack of accountability and responsibility will be so yesteryear.
Responsibility: Allen-Grimes axis has already clearly taken responsibility of the more progressive game plan, in strategy and execution. With Allen-Grimes, Martin can simply focus on what he does best. |
Good post.
Allen was constantly in good positions, constantly demanding the ball and constantly playing with his head up trying to drive us forward. Grimes had more space, time and options and had a great game.
Much of the focus has been on the injury time collapse and rightly so, but it’s worth mentioning we looked more fluid for an hour or so, moved the ball forward and saw a lot less of players going backwards or sideways because they had no options.
We were very fortunate to be able to sign Joe Allen based on geography and his history here. He’s a gift that Martin absolutely has to make the most of. | | | |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 14:05 - Aug 19 with 2221 views | STID2017 |
Out of the OP's list the only one I have consistently criticised is Grimes.
Not just in the last year though.
For at least three seasons.
Otherwise I don't do scapegoats |  |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 14:24 - Aug 19 with 2196 views | onehunglow |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 14:05 - Aug 19 by STID2017 |
Out of the OP's list the only one I have consistently criticised is Grimes.
Not just in the last year though.
For at least three seasons.
Otherwise I don't do scapegoats |
Scapegoat another dumb misused word . | |
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| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 00:21 - Aug 20 with 2135 views | STID2017 |
| Responsibility & Scapegoats on 14:24 - Aug 19 by onehunglow |
Scapegoat another dumb misused word . |
Not sure why ?
We often see in and outside football.
People or groups of people being wrongly blamed when things go wrong ?
I remember a big guy who sits by me (whom Keith knows 😠) constantly blaming Connor Roberts for everything under the sun.
I think scapegoat is an apt term | |
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