| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 13:37 - Aug 3 with 1161 views | TVOS1907 |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 12:23 - Aug 3 by joecooke |
I realise that it is the capacity but surely if demand was higher you would increase capacity. |
Not if (a) you want to be sensible about things and (b) there is limited space around the ground to expand. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 14:12 - Aug 3 with 1098 views | joecooke |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 13:37 - Aug 3 by TVOS1907 |
Not if (a) you want to be sensible about things and (b) there is limited space around the ground to expand. |
I believe they were going to build a new ground but dropped the idea recently. Probably wise considering relegation was potentially on the cards. |  |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 14:13 - Aug 3 with 1095 views | TVOS1907 |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 14:12 - Aug 3 by joecooke |
I believe they were going to build a new ground but dropped the idea recently. Probably wise considering relegation was potentially on the cards. |
Yes.
There are too many clubs who have got to the top flight and then built something beyond their needs. Bolton and Wigan, for example. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 14:30 - Aug 3 with 1068 views | TVOS1907 |
An excellent, thought-provoking article, ATP, although I'd question how competitive the Premier League really is.
Liverpool have just won the title by an 18 point lead over Manchester City, who themselves were 15 points clear of Manchester United.
This means Liverpool's points total was 150% of the team only two places behind them!
Liverpool and City between them scored 187 goals; United scored 66 and fourth-place Chelsea scored 69.
There is too big a gap between the top two and the rest, never mind the top 4/5/6 and the rest.
Games involving Liverpool and City against the lower placed clubs are too inevitable. Of course you get freak results, like Norwich beating City, but by and large, you know the final score is going to be at least a three-goal win.
The real competitive edge comes in the clubs trying to get into Europe or avoid relegation. At the top end, it doesn't exist with the same intensity.
Compare that with other divisions, where the gap isn't as stark. Even we took six points off one of the promoted clubs, although that can be countered by us taking precisely zero points off the rest of the top eight!
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there is every reason to support a lower league club, as games are less predictable, there isn't the same gap between those at the top and the rest and any glory is much rarer, so it should be enjoyed and appreciated more.
The problem is that all clubs now have a cohort of fans who have been brought up in a different era - not just in football, but in life itself - where if there isn't instant success, it all kicks off and there are many more vehicles for that kicking-off!
When I was a lad, you only really had the letters page in the Ob and The Pink Final for letting off steam, which weren't instant like the messageboard/Twitter/Facebook output we have today.
I was hoping the pandemic and its effect on society might have seen football rein itself in a bit, but some clubs just seem to be carrying on as before, such as Stockport giving a THREE-YEAR contract to Wayne Rooney's brother!
Like you, I have previously enjoyed watching some non-league football when Dale weren't playing and if the day came when Dale didn't exist, I would probably go down that route again, more as a groundhopper than anything else.
And that's another thing, travelling all over the country with friends or by myself has increased my self-confidence, improved my knowledge of the transport system and also enhanced my geography of where places are in the country. Without Dale and football, I probably wouldn't have done it otherwise.
EDIT: I'll just add to that the FA Cup. Without tallying up the figures, how many times are the finalists drawn from the same 4 or 5 teams? It was much better in the 70s/80s when all manner of clubs reached the final. [Post edited 3 Aug 2020 14:35]
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| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 14:32 - Aug 3 with 1061 views | funkkk |
Whilst football is undoubtedly technically better than it ever has been for me, at least, it's nowhere near as much fun. Though my view is probably tainted from 3/4 seasons of mostly awful football from Dale.
There's an obsession, across every level of the pyramid, with trying to play 'good' football with players who aren't good enough.
Atmosphere at most games is rubbish.
It's massively overpriced compared to other leisure activities.
I take the point on non-league footy being a better day out and would struggle to argue against it.
The money at the top is obscene.
I could go on and on... |  | | |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 14:52 - Aug 3 with 1037 views | LAClues |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 14:30 - Aug 3 by TVOS1907 |
An excellent, thought-provoking article, ATP, although I'd question how competitive the Premier League really is.
Liverpool have just won the title by an 18 point lead over Manchester City, who themselves were 15 points clear of Manchester United.
This means Liverpool's points total was 150% of the team only two places behind them!
Liverpool and City between them scored 187 goals; United scored 66 and fourth-place Chelsea scored 69.
There is too big a gap between the top two and the rest, never mind the top 4/5/6 and the rest.
Games involving Liverpool and City against the lower placed clubs are too inevitable. Of course you get freak results, like Norwich beating City, but by and large, you know the final score is going to be at least a three-goal win.
The real competitive edge comes in the clubs trying to get into Europe or avoid relegation. At the top end, it doesn't exist with the same intensity.
Compare that with other divisions, where the gap isn't as stark. Even we took six points off one of the promoted clubs, although that can be countered by us taking precisely zero points off the rest of the top eight!
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there is every reason to support a lower league club, as games are less predictable, there isn't the same gap between those at the top and the rest and any glory is much rarer, so it should be enjoyed and appreciated more.
The problem is that all clubs now have a cohort of fans who have been brought up in a different era - not just in football, but in life itself - where if there isn't instant success, it all kicks off and there are many more vehicles for that kicking-off!
When I was a lad, you only really had the letters page in the Ob and The Pink Final for letting off steam, which weren't instant like the messageboard/Twitter/Facebook output we have today.
I was hoping the pandemic and its effect on society might have seen football rein itself in a bit, but some clubs just seem to be carrying on as before, such as Stockport giving a THREE-YEAR contract to Wayne Rooney's brother!
Like you, I have previously enjoyed watching some non-league football when Dale weren't playing and if the day came when Dale didn't exist, I would probably go down that route again, more as a groundhopper than anything else.
And that's another thing, travelling all over the country with friends or by myself has increased my self-confidence, improved my knowledge of the transport system and also enhanced my geography of where places are in the country. Without Dale and football, I probably wouldn't have done it otherwise.
EDIT: I'll just add to that the FA Cup. Without tallying up the figures, how many times are the finalists drawn from the same 4 or 5 teams? It was much better in the 70s/80s when all manner of clubs reached the final. [Post edited 3 Aug 2020 14:35]
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It’s good in the Prem cos manu have been shit |  | | |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 15:07 - Aug 3 with 1008 views | TVOS1907 |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 14:52 - Aug 3 by LAClues |
It’s good in the Prem cos manu have been shit |
Good contribution | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 15:12 - Aug 3 with 995 views | AtThePeake |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 14:30 - Aug 3 by TVOS1907 |
An excellent, thought-provoking article, ATP, although I'd question how competitive the Premier League really is.
Liverpool have just won the title by an 18 point lead over Manchester City, who themselves were 15 points clear of Manchester United.
This means Liverpool's points total was 150% of the team only two places behind them!
Liverpool and City between them scored 187 goals; United scored 66 and fourth-place Chelsea scored 69.
There is too big a gap between the top two and the rest, never mind the top 4/5/6 and the rest.
Games involving Liverpool and City against the lower placed clubs are too inevitable. Of course you get freak results, like Norwich beating City, but by and large, you know the final score is going to be at least a three-goal win.
The real competitive edge comes in the clubs trying to get into Europe or avoid relegation. At the top end, it doesn't exist with the same intensity.
Compare that with other divisions, where the gap isn't as stark. Even we took six points off one of the promoted clubs, although that can be countered by us taking precisely zero points off the rest of the top eight!
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there is every reason to support a lower league club, as games are less predictable, there isn't the same gap between those at the top and the rest and any glory is much rarer, so it should be enjoyed and appreciated more.
The problem is that all clubs now have a cohort of fans who have been brought up in a different era - not just in football, but in life itself - where if there isn't instant success, it all kicks off and there are many more vehicles for that kicking-off!
When I was a lad, you only really had the letters page in the Ob and The Pink Final for letting off steam, which weren't instant like the messageboard/Twitter/Facebook output we have today.
I was hoping the pandemic and its effect on society might have seen football rein itself in a bit, but some clubs just seem to be carrying on as before, such as Stockport giving a THREE-YEAR contract to Wayne Rooney's brother!
Like you, I have previously enjoyed watching some non-league football when Dale weren't playing and if the day came when Dale didn't exist, I would probably go down that route again, more as a groundhopper than anything else.
And that's another thing, travelling all over the country with friends or by myself has increased my self-confidence, improved my knowledge of the transport system and also enhanced my geography of where places are in the country. Without Dale and football, I probably wouldn't have done it otherwise.
EDIT: I'll just add to that the FA Cup. Without tallying up the figures, how many times are the finalists drawn from the same 4 or 5 teams? It was much better in the 70s/80s when all manner of clubs reached the final. [Post edited 3 Aug 2020 14:35]
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Can't disagree with any of that TVOS. Obviously I have poised this argument from one side without really going into the reasons why it is worth supporting a lower league club (I obviously believe there are some or I'd have stopped going a while ago!) but the last point about travelling all over the country is one I've never really considered before but certainly agree with.
I perhaps should've gone into more depth with that particular point on the competitiveness of the Premier League. When I said in terms of quality and competitiveness, I meant the mix between the two when calling it 'The Best League In The World' as the Premier League themselves so often do.
The Premier League cannot compete with the lower leagues for competitiveness, but the lower leagues cannot compete with the Premier League in terms of quality and those that can compete in terms of quality (which are basically only Serie A, La Liga and the Bundesliga but the following point is still valid for the likes of Ligue 1 and the Eredivisie) are nowhere near as competitive. Liverpool won the title by 18 points - but that was their first title for 30 years and we've now had five different title winners in England since the last time the title was won by anyone other than Juventus in Italy or Bayern Munich in Germany. It may not be ideal, but at least it seems to be 2 or 3 different teams from a group of 6 or 7 that appear to be competing every few seasons at the moment in comparison to the monopoly in Italy or the duopoly in Spain. |  |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 15:15 - Aug 3 with 990 views | judd |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 15:07 - Aug 3 by TVOS1907 |
Good contribution |
Not up to your epic standard but I think my summary is meticulous. |  |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 15:29 - Aug 3 with 953 views | TVOS1907 |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 15:12 - Aug 3 by AtThePeake |
Can't disagree with any of that TVOS. Obviously I have poised this argument from one side without really going into the reasons why it is worth supporting a lower league club (I obviously believe there are some or I'd have stopped going a while ago!) but the last point about travelling all over the country is one I've never really considered before but certainly agree with.
I perhaps should've gone into more depth with that particular point on the competitiveness of the Premier League. When I said in terms of quality and competitiveness, I meant the mix between the two when calling it 'The Best League In The World' as the Premier League themselves so often do.
The Premier League cannot compete with the lower leagues for competitiveness, but the lower leagues cannot compete with the Premier League in terms of quality and those that can compete in terms of quality (which are basically only Serie A, La Liga and the Bundesliga but the following point is still valid for the likes of Ligue 1 and the Eredivisie) are nowhere near as competitive. Liverpool won the title by 18 points - but that was their first title for 30 years and we've now had five different title winners in England since the last time the title was won by anyone other than Juventus in Italy or Bayern Munich in Germany. It may not be ideal, but at least it seems to be 2 or 3 different teams from a group of 6 or 7 that appear to be competing every few seasons at the moment in comparison to the monopoly in Italy or the duopoly in Spain. |
But Italy/Germany/Spain don't have the same depth below their top flight, which is where you were originally coming from.
You're right about the quality, but there's a misconception (mainly among people who never actually go to matches) that the top flight is far better than the lower leagues in every department, which simply isn't true.
I've seen many a poor game in the Premier League and how often does Lineker joke about why a game is on last on MotD?
For me, the Championship is the best league in terms of competitiveness in this or any country.
I'm afraid the Premier League has turned into a higher quality, more expensive version of the SPL, which Fitzo will know plenty about. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 15:37 - Aug 3 with 940 views | judd |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 15:29 - Aug 3 by TVOS1907 |
But Italy/Germany/Spain don't have the same depth below their top flight, which is where you were originally coming from.
You're right about the quality, but there's a misconception (mainly among people who never actually go to matches) that the top flight is far better than the lower leagues in every department, which simply isn't true.
I've seen many a poor game in the Premier League and how often does Lineker joke about why a game is on last on MotD?
For me, the Championship is the best league in terms of competitiveness in this or any country.
I'm afraid the Premier League has turned into a higher quality, more expensive version of the SPL, which Fitzo will know plenty about. |
For me the performances of Wolves and Sheffield United have lit up the mid-ranking Premiership battle, even the position that Burnley ended up in has been worth monitoring. These clubs are not about surviving in a division, they genuinely wanted to finish as high as they possibly could.
I thought Liverpool were far more entertaining last season than this, they became more pragmatic and benefitted from Man City failing to address their defensive issues when Kompany retired. | |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 15:44 - Aug 3 with 924 views | TVOS1907 |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 15:37 - Aug 3 by judd |
For me the performances of Wolves and Sheffield United have lit up the mid-ranking Premiership battle, even the position that Burnley ended up in has been worth monitoring. These clubs are not about surviving in a division, they genuinely wanted to finish as high as they possibly could.
I thought Liverpool were far more entertaining last season than this, they became more pragmatic and benefitted from Man City failing to address their defensive issues when Kompany retired. |
Absolutely.
Problem is that most of the others are about just surviving. Moyes has even been given a new contract at West Ham for keeping them up!
What's in it for the fans at a club like that? I never understand why they diss the cups so much. The fans would surely rather have the excitement of a cup run and day out at Wembley than staying up because they beat Watford! | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 15:50 - Aug 3 with 910 views | Ancoats_Blue |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 14:30 - Aug 3 by TVOS1907 |
An excellent, thought-provoking article, ATP, although I'd question how competitive the Premier League really is.
Liverpool have just won the title by an 18 point lead over Manchester City, who themselves were 15 points clear of Manchester United.
This means Liverpool's points total was 150% of the team only two places behind them!
Liverpool and City between them scored 187 goals; United scored 66 and fourth-place Chelsea scored 69.
There is too big a gap between the top two and the rest, never mind the top 4/5/6 and the rest.
Games involving Liverpool and City against the lower placed clubs are too inevitable. Of course you get freak results, like Norwich beating City, but by and large, you know the final score is going to be at least a three-goal win.
The real competitive edge comes in the clubs trying to get into Europe or avoid relegation. At the top end, it doesn't exist with the same intensity.
Compare that with other divisions, where the gap isn't as stark. Even we took six points off one of the promoted clubs, although that can be countered by us taking precisely zero points off the rest of the top eight!
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there is every reason to support a lower league club, as games are less predictable, there isn't the same gap between those at the top and the rest and any glory is much rarer, so it should be enjoyed and appreciated more.
The problem is that all clubs now have a cohort of fans who have been brought up in a different era - not just in football, but in life itself - where if there isn't instant success, it all kicks off and there are many more vehicles for that kicking-off!
When I was a lad, you only really had the letters page in the Ob and The Pink Final for letting off steam, which weren't instant like the messageboard/Twitter/Facebook output we have today.
I was hoping the pandemic and its effect on society might have seen football rein itself in a bit, but some clubs just seem to be carrying on as before, such as Stockport giving a THREE-YEAR contract to Wayne Rooney's brother!
Like you, I have previously enjoyed watching some non-league football when Dale weren't playing and if the day came when Dale didn't exist, I would probably go down that route again, more as a groundhopper than anything else.
And that's another thing, travelling all over the country with friends or by myself has increased my self-confidence, improved my knowledge of the transport system and also enhanced my geography of where places are in the country. Without Dale and football, I probably wouldn't have done it otherwise.
EDIT: I'll just add to that the FA Cup. Without tallying up the figures, how many times are the finalists drawn from the same 4 or 5 teams? It was much better in the 70s/80s when all manner of clubs reached the final. [Post edited 3 Aug 2020 14:35]
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Excellent post. I can relate to the travelling around the country part. I’ve seen so much of England thanks to football, often making a weekend away of an interesting fixture |  | | |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 16:35 - Aug 3 with 859 views | AtThePeake |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 15:29 - Aug 3 by TVOS1907 |
But Italy/Germany/Spain don't have the same depth below their top flight, which is where you were originally coming from.
You're right about the quality, but there's a misconception (mainly among people who never actually go to matches) that the top flight is far better than the lower leagues in every department, which simply isn't true.
I've seen many a poor game in the Premier League and how often does Lineker joke about why a game is on last on MotD?
For me, the Championship is the best league in terms of competitiveness in this or any country.
I'm afraid the Premier League has turned into a higher quality, more expensive version of the SPL, which Fitzo will know plenty about. |
I can't disagree that in terms of competition value, the Championship beats the Premier League every time - as do League One, League Two and probably every other division in the country.
I suppose it depends on what factors people take into consideration when calling something 'the best' and that will be different for everyone. For me, the highest quality leagues are clearly the top leagues in England, Italy, Germany and Spain and of those four, England's has proven to be the most competitive. That's why I used the factor of competitiveness to qualify the 'best league in the world' opinion, for others the quality factor might not come into that argument at all.
I'd have to disagree regarding the Premier League turning into a higher quality SPL though. Yes, Liverpool and Man City have been far above and beyond every team in the league in the last two seasons - but it's only been two seasons! Liverpool finished 4th the season before that and if you go back one season further, neither Liverpool nor City won the league. Go back another season and it was won by a team that were tipped to finish bottom. The SPL could only dream of being as competitive unfortunately. | |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 16:47 - Aug 3 with 836 views | TVOS1907 |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 16:35 - Aug 3 by AtThePeake |
I can't disagree that in terms of competition value, the Championship beats the Premier League every time - as do League One, League Two and probably every other division in the country.
I suppose it depends on what factors people take into consideration when calling something 'the best' and that will be different for everyone. For me, the highest quality leagues are clearly the top leagues in England, Italy, Germany and Spain and of those four, England's has proven to be the most competitive. That's why I used the factor of competitiveness to qualify the 'best league in the world' opinion, for others the quality factor might not come into that argument at all.
I'd have to disagree regarding the Premier League turning into a higher quality SPL though. Yes, Liverpool and Man City have been far above and beyond every team in the league in the last two seasons - but it's only been two seasons! Liverpool finished 4th the season before that and if you go back one season further, neither Liverpool nor City won the league. Go back another season and it was won by a team that were tipped to finish bottom. The SPL could only dream of being as competitive unfortunately. |
But moving forward, I can only see it going one way.
I'm hopeless at predictions, though, so who knows? | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 16:58 - Aug 3 with 820 views | AtThePeake |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 16:47 - Aug 3 by TVOS1907 |
But moving forward, I can only see it going one way.
I'm hopeless at predictions, though, so who knows? |
Fair enough, personally I think there are too many clubs with too much money to spend to allow the PL to ever become that much of a procession. | |
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| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 10:35 - Aug 4 with 633 views | Ancoats_Blue |
| Is there any reason to support a lower league club? on 18:53 - Aug 2 by fitzochris |
The money pumped into Fleetwood hasn’t been rewarded with success?
They’ve climbed up the pyramid and currently sit in League One, for crying out loud. Salford are on a similar trajectory.
Accrington may have been bankrolled but always at a proportionally sensible level. I don’t get you using them as a comparison, to be honest.
Bournemouth and Brighton are both clubs with a tremendous history in the football league and have the support and infrastructure to justify the investment they’ve received.
What are Fleetwood and Salford ever going to realistically offer? Seriously?
I’ve no problem with them existing, but why try to buy success at ridiculous levels? It will get them as far as the Championship and that is as far as they will go with their infrastructure. I doubt the Class of 92 will stick around when things get tough and interest wanes. Their hearts lie with another club.
Andy Pilley likewise at Fleetwood. He’s a businessman at the end of the day and even his wealth only goes so far. Blackpool is the club with the history and support on that coastline and he knows it deep down. |
It’ll be interesting to see what a few seasons of crap do to these bankrolled clubs. We know that Dale have a core of 1500-2000 that will turn up to watch us plod along in the same league for decades whilst our neighbours succeed. Will Salford and FleetWood? I doubt it. They’ve no doubt added to their core fan base and won’t necessarily return to 2 men and a dog turning up. But as you say it can’t be sustainable long term. I’d imagine if ManUnited continue to improve and Salford stay in League 2 for too long the novelty will wear off for a lot. | | | |
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