| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists 11:34 - Oct 5 with 18873 views | CopperJack |
Can someone explain something to me, please?
So, you want to leave our biggest market (the UK), on top of all the financial aid we get from England (infinitely more than from the EU, the south east of England basically bankrolls the UK), to join the EU and expatriate those powers to another foreign power in Brussels?
This post isn't meant to be inflammatory, I genuinely don't get it. Besides an irrational hatred of England, the stance of 'life isn't worth living outside of the EU', doesn't match with 'life isn't worth living inside the UK'. They're entirely contrary, in fact.
If you want independence, and be in charge of all our own rules, then fine, I get that, but then don't then gift all those powers to Brussels. If you're concerned with leaving the single market, why would you advocate leaving our BIGGEST market - not to mention the number of people who commute across the border. The EU isn't the land of milk and honey that the nationalists and media portray it, just look at youth unemployment across the EU - there are much bigger and wealthier countries with higher unemployment rates than us, because we're part of the UK.
It just strikes me as 'we're willing to take anything to stick it up the nasty English', but would love clarification on how these two stances aren't contrary. Thanks |  |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 11:21 - Oct 6 with 2085 views | Kilkennyjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 10:16 - Oct 6 by CopperJack |
Okay, so, few points.
Regarding the hatred of the English, pretty obvious from all Welsh Nationalists, i.e, Kilkenny and Trampie. You also see it a lot on social media, for example, those that won't support Team GB because it's too english or whatever - Look at the furore over entering a Team GB football team at the Olympics, despite no evidence suggesting that we'd be forced to give up independent football status. I see so many people blame England for every ill this country faces, when many of our problems are created by the Welsh Assembly, but because it's Welsh, it's meekly accepted.
Also the fact that they refer to anyone who doesn't want Welsh Independence as a 'Brit Nat', conflating the idea of what nationalism is. Nationalism isn't patriotism, or even dual identity. Nationalism is what the nationalistic parties (like Plaid, SNP, UKIP) strive for. This just denigrates the argument and comes across as 'anyone but England'.
As has already been pointed out, it's unlikely that Spain would allow us to join the EU, even if the other 27 did agree, so no, we wouldn't be able to trade as we currently do with England. It's kind of like what the ROI are doing now; angry that Britain voted to leave, but don't see the paradox that they also disliked being ruled by a foreign power.
The EU is not the all-saving factor our liberal press would have you believe, or otherwise, unemployment wouldn't be lower there than in south Wales, which is far more economically deprived. This almost certainly comes from our ties to England. If we 'went it alone', we'd end up like an eastern European country, living on handouts with soaring unemployment. But, at least the hard left nationalists would have the satisfaction that we're no longer tied to England.
Also, regarding the point that 'we don't get aid from England, we pay taxes', the same is true of the EU. The UK is a net contributor, and during the whole time we've been in the EU, Wales has remained one of the poorest regions in the UK, yet we still are told that the EU has created endless wealth here. Bigger cities, like Cardiff, Bristol, London have done very well out of it. The poor areas have stayed poor.
I still don't get why people want to leave the UK, where we get more money from, and have historic ties, to become independent and give all those powers to a supranational government based hundreds of miles away...unless it's because it's an anti-English thing. Happy to be ruled in Brussels, but not Westminster. Seems the long and short of it |
Bollox.
I dont support Team GB as there is no such thing.
The English, Scottish, and Welsh are the 3 oldest football associations in the world.
They said London was a one off, and now its not.
The numbers terms only 1 or 2 welsh female players will be selected.
Thats not worth risking our independent football status for.
We dont play as Team GB.
And Bale gave them a very clear answer last time around.
What happened to the Home Internationals...?
Not so Team GB then was it. |  |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:09 - Oct 6 with 2055 views | Highjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 11:15 - Oct 6 by Kilkennyjack |
No they did not.
You would have to be over 90 today to have fought even as a very young soldier in the second world war.
Most of todays pensioners were war time children.
It was their parents generation who fought. |
Who mentioned the Second World War? Many soldiers involved in the falklands, gulf war, the troubles, Bosnia etc will be pensioners now. |  |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:45 - Oct 6 with 2040 views | Catullus |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 11:15 - Oct 6 by Kilkennyjack |
No they did not.
You would have to be over 90 today to have fought even as a very young soldier in the second world war.
Most of todays pensioners were war time children.
It was their parents generation who fought. |
Did they not fight inh any wars? I suppose the Falklands was just a brawl? The troubles in Ireland.....then some of those who aren't quite pensioners fought in the gulf wars. You can't argue about miners at least, there's no doubting there were miners who are pensioners today. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:59 - Oct 6 with 2035 views | Catullus |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 11:21 - Oct 6 by Kilkennyjack |
Bollox.
I dont support Team GB as there is no such thing.
The English, Scottish, and Welsh are the 3 oldest football associations in the world.
They said London was a one off, and now its not.
The numbers terms only 1 or 2 welsh female players will be selected.
Thats not worth risking our independent football status for.
We dont play as Team GB.
And Bale gave them a very clear answer last time around.
What happened to the Home Internationals...?
Not so Team GB then was it. |
You don't hate the English you say but this post drips with it. Interesting that in a previous post you say "worst case scenario is Wales gets a special deal" so even if Wales is vetoed we'd get a special deal? And that's a "worst case" is it? How about the worst case being we are vetoed and have to trade on WTO rules? How about if England doesn't negotiate very amicably after all, there were rising levels of anger (turning to hatred) towards the Scottish during their Indyref, some of the language coming out of Scotland was vile, anti English bigotry of the worst kind.
I can agree about the home internationals but that was the English FA, not the government and saying we weren't good enough competition was made to look a tad silly when we topped them in the rankings, indeed, I'd argue that them dumping us worked more in our favour than theirs, they continue to exemplify mediocrity (until Southgate under whom they have shown signs of improving) whereas we have improved leaps and bounds. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 17:50 - Oct 6 with 2007 views | valleyboy |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:29 - Oct 5 by Highjack |
I don’t see the logic in fighting for independence only to hand the power over to Brussels. Wales would be fine on its own. |
And what drugs are you on??
The last time the figures were published in 2015, Wales had a deficit of nearly £15 billion
25% of the Welsh GDP
Don’t tell me that you are dull enough to think the EU would make up that deficit | | | |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 17:54 - Oct 6 with 2007 views | valleyboy |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:35 - Oct 5 by trampie |
We don't get financial aid from England, we are part of the UK, England is not a sovereign state.
Some supporters of independence don't want to be in the EU, don't think for one minute that all pro Independence supporters for Wales are all pro EU as well.
Irrational hatred of the English you say.....hmm....I don't know anyone that supports independence having an irrational hatred of the English, where did you get that idea from ?
The current leader of Plaid Cymru mother is English and the previous leader has an English surname and didn't speak Welsh, disingenuous opponents, fake news and project fear at play it seems.
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So where does the money come as Scotland and Northern Ireland have huge deficits
I’m sure the English will be glad to get rid of the moaners in the other 3 countries as they would have more money to spend on projects in England | | | |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 18:04 - Oct 6 with 2004 views | johnlangy |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 17:35 - Oct 5 by Catullus |
With all the problems the UK is enduring leaving the EU, those same things will apply to Welsh independence but probably they will be worse. The UK has only been in the EU 45 years, Wales has been tied to England many times more than that. Economically, culturally, spiritually and geographically we are British.
If we went independent we would then have to apply to join the EU and we'd have to meet the "Copenhagen criteria" which is 35 different sections that have to be met and fulfilled in order, but we can only start doing that if the other member states agree unanimously to us joining. Just one objection and we are stuck.
Joining the EU could literally take years and what do we do in that time? We have no more income from England and no help from the EU, it's much, much more of a gamble than brexit.
By the nature of their posts Kilkenny (definitely) and trampie do seem to loathe the English, at least the right wing English anyway. Though Kilk does get a tad irate with anyone who speaks out in support of the union!
If brexit happened with no deal, then what? Go independent, wait possibly a long time to join the EU to find trading with the UK happened on WTO rules and we are paying tariffs for things bought an hours drive away, possibly have to take a passport to get across the border into England. Though maybe the nats would be happier when all our sporting teams had to join the Welsh league (or would we be allowed to cherry pick) and Glamorgan became extinct. Even with a decent deal that sporting scenario would probably happen if we left the union.
That raw deal we get, it's exactly the same with the Welsh government, they spend masses on the South East corner of Wales while the rest rots. Why do nats think politics will change with independence? |
The answer to the last question is that politics won't change but we'll be able to change the political party running the country if we don't like the way they do it.
And if Plaid got in (not something I expect to happen soon) I don't believe for one moment they'd just carry on doing what Labour have done by investing almost everything in the South East.
Do you think they would ? | | | |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 18:05 - Oct 6 with 2004 views | dobjack2 |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:35 - Oct 5 by trampie |
We don't get financial aid from England, we are part of the UK, England is not a sovereign state.
Some supporters of independence don't want to be in the EU, don't think for one minute that all pro Independence supporters for Wales are all pro EU as well.
Irrational hatred of the English you say.....hmm....I don't know anyone that supports independence having an irrational hatred of the English, where did you get that idea from ?
The current leader of Plaid Cymru mother is English and the previous leader has an English surname and didn't speak Welsh, disingenuous opponents, fake news and project fear at play it seems.
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Project fantasy island from Plaid. | | | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 18:06 - Oct 6 with 2002 views | Catullus |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 17:54 - Oct 6 by valleyboy |
So where does the money come as Scotland and Northern Ireland have huge deficits
I’m sure the English will be glad to get rid of the moaners in the other 3 countries as they would have more money to spend on projects in England |
The indy supporters dispute the official figures because many Welsh businesses are apparently registered in England for tax purposes so our taxes go down as English taxes. I don't know, I can't be sure, they may be right.
Officially, the South East and London subsidises the rest of the UK but we can be pretty sure that statistics, official or otherwise can be made to say many things. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 18:14 - Oct 6 with 1996 views | johnlangy |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 17:50 - Oct 6 by valleyboy |
And what drugs are you on??
The last time the figures were published in 2015, Wales had a deficit of nearly £15 billion
25% of the Welsh GDP
Don’t tell me that you are dull enough to think the EU would make up that deficit |
Valleyboy. It's been explained so many times in many other threads that the real deficit is 4, maybe 5 billion. | | | |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 18:20 - Oct 6 with 1987 views | Catullus |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 18:04 - Oct 6 by johnlangy |
The answer to the last question is that politics won't change but we'll be able to change the political party running the country if we don't like the way they do it.
And if Plaid got in (not something I expect to happen soon) I don't believe for one moment they'd just carry on doing what Labour have done by investing almost everything in the South East.
Do you think they would ? |
We can change the party in charge now though, in the WAG or Westminster. Which is what puzzles me about Europhiles because we can't vote the commission or president out, it's a strange thing.
I don't see Plaid getting close to being in power, I see them as little more than a protest vote; the Welsh UKIP if you will. Regardless, politicians have a great track record for breaking promises or spouting any old line to win people over but then winning power and not doing any such thing. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 18:22 - Oct 6 with 1987 views | johnlangy |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 18:06 - Oct 6 by Catullus |
The indy supporters dispute the official figures because many Welsh businesses are apparently registered in England for tax purposes so our taxes go down as English taxes. I don't know, I can't be sure, they may be right.
Officially, the South East and London subsidises the rest of the UK but we can be pretty sure that statistics, official or otherwise can be made to say many things. |
Not apparently Catullus. They just are.
We know the vast majority of HQ's of the big companies in the UK are England based and most of them in London and the South East. They register their VAT and Corp Tax at their HQ's. Tesco HQ, for example, is in Cheshunt Hertfordshire. Tesco sells around £3 billion of stuff in Wales yet all the VAT we pay is registered in England. As is the Corp Tax.
That's huge amount of tax. And that's just one company. | | | |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:16 - Oct 6 with 1976 views | valleyboy |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 18:14 - Oct 6 by johnlangy |
Valleyboy. It's been explained so many times in many other threads that the real deficit is 4, maybe 5 billion. |
If I was you I would check before making a right fool of yourself
Just go to Google and type in “what is the Welsh deficit”?? | | | |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:19 - Oct 6 with 1976 views | Highjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 17:50 - Oct 6 by valleyboy |
And what drugs are you on??
The last time the figures were published in 2015, Wales had a deficit of nearly £15 billion
25% of the Welsh GDP
Don’t tell me that you are dull enough to think the EU would make up that deficit |
Just beer mainly these days.
And I think I've made it clear regularly that the EU are welcome to f off. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:31 - Oct 6 with 1967 views | Kilkennyjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:09 - Oct 6 by Highjack |
Who mentioned the Second World War? Many soldiers involved in the falklands, gulf war, the troubles, Bosnia etc will be pensioners now. |
Right .... sorry ...
So ....in a discussion about Europe and then ‘wars’ and pensioners get mentioned, you dont mean the 2 European world wars. No ....you mean the Falklands, gulf wars, Bosnia and ‘the troubles’ ....
Do me a favour.
Fake news. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:33 - Oct 6 with 1963 views | Kilkennyjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:16 - Oct 6 by valleyboy |
If I was you I would check before making a right fool of yourself
Just go to Google and type in “what is the Welsh deficit”?? |
Listen to John.
John knows. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:40 - Oct 6 with 1957 views | peenemunde |
Wales would fine.
We could all plant money trees. Apparently there are loads on fantasy island. |  | | |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 20:27 - Oct 6 with 1928 views | Catullus |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 18:22 - Oct 6 by johnlangy |
Not apparently Catullus. They just are.
We know the vast majority of HQ's of the big companies in the UK are England based and most of them in London and the South East. They register their VAT and Corp Tax at their HQ's. Tesco HQ, for example, is in Cheshunt Hertfordshire. Tesco sells around £3 billion of stuff in Wales yet all the VAT we pay is registered in England. As is the Corp Tax.
That's huge amount of tax. And that's just one company. |
See what you did now, you gave me a reason to dispute that!! If Tesco are paying those taxes then it's not Welsh taxes, speaking lterally It's money earned in Wales that Tesco has to pay taxes on.
It only seems to be those pushing for independence of who take this view of our taxes/GDP and funding from Westminster. Even the WAG seems to accept we have a deficit of around 15 billion. If we went independent and Tesco continued to trade here, they might be registered elsewhere still (like Luxembourg) so they can pay lower taxes, or would an independent Wales change the law and potentially upset big businesses?
https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/news/view/228329-new-report-detailing-wales-public-sec | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 20:29 - Oct 6 with 1926 views | Jack_Meoff |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:40 - Oct 6 by peenemunde |
Wales would fine.
We could all plant money trees. Apparently there are loads on fantasy island. |
So what is money then exactly, and what is it based upon? |  |
| If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--forever. |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 20:34 - Oct 6 with 1918 views | Catullus |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:31 - Oct 6 by Kilkennyjack |
Right .... sorry ...
So ....in a discussion about Europe and then ‘wars’ and pensioners get mentioned, you dont mean the 2 European world wars. No ....you mean the Falklands, gulf wars, Bosnia and ‘the troubles’ ....
Do me a favour.
Fake news. |
No, it's a discussion about the EU and pensioners votes were brought up. You were very disparaging to pensioners who have earned their right to vote.
Remember, we are not leaving Europe just the EU. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 20:34 - Oct 6 with 1915 views | Kilkennyjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:40 - Oct 6 by peenemunde |
Wales would fine.
We could all plant money trees. Apparently there are loads on fantasy island. |
Do you think welsh people are too dull to self govern ?
No country that left the British empire has ever asked to come back.
Beyond fear lies freedom. 🇪🇺ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 20:49 - Oct 6 with 1890 views | Highjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 20:34 - Oct 6 by Catullus |
No, it's a discussion about the EU and pensioners votes were brought up. You were very disparaging to pensioners who have earned their right to vote.
Remember, we are not leaving Europe just the EU. |
Even when I support the opportunity of welsh independence he argued the toss with me. I can’t win. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 21:04 - Oct 6 with 1875 views | Catullus |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 20:34 - Oct 6 by Kilkennyjack |
Do you think welsh people are too dull to self govern ?
No country that left the British empire has ever asked to come back.
Beyond fear lies freedom. 🇪🇺ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ |
"Beyond fear lies freedom" you say, which is exactly how those Welsh people (you know, the majority of us) who chose leave, feel about the EU. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 21:09 - Oct 6 with 1865 views | peenemunde |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 20:34 - Oct 6 by Kilkennyjack |
Do you think welsh people are too dull to self govern ?
No country that left the British empire has ever asked to come back.
Beyond fear lies freedom. 🇪🇺ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ |
Do you think the British are too dull to self govern ?
How many countries have asked to leave the British commonwealth ?
Beyond fear lies freedom 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 [Post edited 6 Oct 2018 21:45]
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 21:13 - Oct 6 with 1862 views | peenemunde |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 20:29 - Oct 6 by Jack_Meoff |
So what is money then exactly, and what is it based upon? |
Money grows on trees. A Plaid Cymru member told me.....he’s seen it himself on fantasy island.🤣 | | | |
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