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Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 13:38 - Nov 25 by Groo
In World War 1, Russia's alliance with Serbia and their pact to defend them dragged the whole of Europe into a war after Serbian sponsored terrorists assasinated the heir to the Austrian/Hungarian Empire. Germany's alliance with Austria and Frances with Russia ensured everyone was involved.
Russia after being a main trigger in the war self imploded resulting in the revolution and the Bolshoviks made peace with Germay leaving the rest of us to it.
In World War 2, they signed a peace treaty with Hitler and carved up Poland with them, only joining the war when Hitler in desperation for the Russian oil fields attacked Russia.
Russia fought on the same side as Britain in WW1 and WW2
Turkey fought against Britain in WW1 and was neutral in WW2 until there was only a few months to go and then they didn't fire a bullet.
Continually being banned by Planet Swans for Porthcawl and then being reinstated.
Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 13:39 - Nov 25 by Groo
When did we fight alongside ISIS?
I never said we did. But the Celts stopped the English from dragging us into a war in Syria where we would have fought alongside ISIS as only Assad was seen as the baddie at the time. Cameron lost a vote in the house, Celts virtually to a man and woman voted against Cameron, the majority of English mp's voted with Cameron.
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"4. Are Rebels Linked to Al Qaeda? US Secretary of State John Kerry said in September 2013 that Islamist extremists make up only 15 to 25% of the rebel forces. But a study by Jane’s Defence published at the same time estimated the number of Al Qaeda-linked “jihadists” at 10 000, with another 30-35 000 “hardline Islamists” who while not formally aligned to Al Qaeda, share a similar ideological outlook (see here).
The main difference between the two groups is that while “jihadists” see the struggle against Assad as part of a wider conflict against the Shiites (and, ultimately, the West), other Islamists are focused only on Syria.
To make matters more complicated, the two rebel units who claim the Al Qaeda banner - Al Nusra Front and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant — are not on friendly terms. And while the more moderate rebel factions enter into alliances with Al Qaeda-linked groups in some parts of the country, in other areas there is growing tension and actual fighting between rival groups."
"1. Where do the Fighters Come From? The armed rebellion against Assad was first organized by army defectors who in summer 2011 set up the Free Syrian Army. Their ranks soon swell with thousands of volunteers, some wanting to defend their towns from regime’s brutality, others also driven by ideological opposition to Assad’s secular dictatorship.
Although the political opposition as a whole represents a cross-section of Syria’s religiously diverse society, the armed rebellion is driven mostly by the Sunni Arab majority, particularly in low-income provincial areas. There are also thousands of foreign fighters in Syria, Sunni Muslims from different countries who came to join various Islamist rebel units."
[Post edited 25 Nov 2015 14:49]
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Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 14:51 - Nov 25 with 2610 views
Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 14:22 - Nov 25 by trampie
Of course ISIS and al-Qaeda are terrorists, do you think they are not terrorists then Goo ?
So as I said, you believe Putin, who states ALL rebels are terrorists.
Where-as I believe the rebels are Syrians who oppose Assad's dictatorship. These rebels are also fighting against ISIS who have taken advantage and taken large areas of Syria.
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Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 15:10 - Nov 25 with 2589 views
Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 14:51 - Nov 25 by Groo
So as I said, you believe Putin, who states ALL rebels are terrorists.
Where-as I believe the rebels are Syrians who oppose Assad's dictatorship. These rebels are also fighting against ISIS who have taken advantage and taken large areas of Syria.
In the recent past our Governments would have seen ISIS as rebels fighting to overthrow Assad, now ISIS are know as terrorists, you Groo a couple of years ago would have supported ISIS because you would have been told that they were rebels fighting Assad and would have known no difference.
You have no idea what these rebel groups are like, did you see what the rebels that are fighting Assad did to the Russian pilots who's plane had been shot down, machine gunning them in their parachutes and chanting some religious bollux and those Turkmen are not only fighting Assad but they are fighting the Kurds as well.
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Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 15:10 - Nov 25 by trampie
In the recent past our Governments would have seen ISIS as rebels fighting to overthrow Assad, now ISIS are know as terrorists, you Groo a couple of years ago would have supported ISIS because you would have been told that they were rebels fighting Assad and would have known no difference.
You have no idea what these rebel groups are like, did you see what the rebels that are fighting Assad did to the Russian pilots who's plane had been shot down, machine gunning them in their parachutes and chanting some religious bollux and those Turkmen are not only fighting Assad but they are fighting the Kurds as well.
How dare you say I'd see ISIS as rebels !!
The rebels are fighting a civil war, against their own ruler (who is a DICTATOR).
No doubt it is very complicated, no doubt there are groups within groups taking advantage .
The Russians, since joining Assad has consistently bombed the rebels (not ISIS), only starting on ISIS after the bombing of the Russian passenger jet. What they did to the pilot is not right but then again, if you were fighting for your freedom would you release a a captured pilot, who's part of a group bombing and trying to kill you, back, so he could bomb you again? It wasn't right but I can sort of understand their actions
Assad and his father before him are not democratically elected rulers, they're dictators who lead an oppressive regime.
The rebels are fighting to overthrow the dictator.
The problem I see it, if the rebels win, then it will not be a democracy that takes over, the rebels will in-fight until the strongest and best supported will just take over the dictatorship and no doubt it will be whichever is the strongest Islamic group that will take the leadership.
So let me get this straight, there is a major difference between a group of people fighting for their freedom and a group of people who want to dominate the region and the world and who wishes to kill all those who don't bend to the same religion as them.
The Syrian rebels didn't attack Paris, ISIS did, the Syrian rebels are not ISIS.
It doesn't mean that the Syrian rebels are our friends, as far as I'm concerned we should have stayed out, unless there is a real viable end game to bring lasting peace in the region.
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Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 15:40 - Nov 25 with 2561 views
Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 15:35 - Nov 25 by Groo
How dare you say I'd see ISIS as rebels !!
The rebels are fighting a civil war, against their own ruler (who is a DICTATOR).
No doubt it is very complicated, no doubt there are groups within groups taking advantage .
The Russians, since joining Assad has consistently bombed the rebels (not ISIS), only starting on ISIS after the bombing of the Russian passenger jet. What they did to the pilot is not right but then again, if you were fighting for your freedom would you release a a captured pilot, who's part of a group bombing and trying to kill you, back, so he could bomb you again? It wasn't right but I can sort of understand their actions
Assad and his father before him are not democratically elected rulers, they're dictators who lead an oppressive regime.
The rebels are fighting to overthrow the dictator.
The problem I see it, if the rebels win, then it will not be a democracy that takes over, the rebels will in-fight until the strongest and best supported will just take over the dictatorship and no doubt it will be whichever is the strongest Islamic group that will take the leadership.
So let me get this straight, there is a major difference between a group of people fighting for their freedom and a group of people who want to dominate the region and the world and who wishes to kill all those who don't bend to the same religion as them.
The Syrian rebels didn't attack Paris, ISIS did, the Syrian rebels are not ISIS.
It doesn't mean that the Syrian rebels are our friends, as far as I'm concerned we should have stayed out, unless there is a real viable end game to bring lasting peace in the region.
You would have described ISIS as rebels 2 years ago Groo, fighting to overthrow a dictator and all that as you would have known no better.
Continually being banned by Planet Swans for Porthcawl and then being reinstated.
"4. Are Rebels Linked to Al Qaeda? US Secretary of State John Kerry said in September 2013 that Islamist extremists make up only 15 to 25% of the rebel forces. But a study by Jane’s Defence published at the same time estimated the number of Al Qaeda-linked “jihadists” at 10 000, with another 30-35 000 “hardline Islamists” who while not formally aligned to Al Qaeda, share a similar ideological outlook (see here).
The main difference between the two groups is that while “jihadists” see the struggle against Assad as part of a wider conflict against the Shiites (and, ultimately, the West), other Islamists are focused only on Syria.
To make matters more complicated, the two rebel units who claim the Al Qaeda banner - Al Nusra Front and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant — are not on friendly terms. And while the more moderate rebel factions enter into alliances with Al Qaeda-linked groups in some parts of the country, in other areas there is growing tension and actual fighting between rival groups."
"1. Where do the Fighters Come From? The armed rebellion against Assad was first organized by army defectors who in summer 2011 set up the Free Syrian Army. Their ranks soon swell with thousands of volunteers, some wanting to defend their towns from regime’s brutality, others also driven by ideological opposition to Assad’s secular dictatorship.
Although the political opposition as a whole represents a cross-section of Syria’s religiously diverse society, the armed rebellion is driven mostly by the Sunni Arab majority, particularly in low-income provincial areas. There are also thousands of foreign fighters in Syria, Sunni Muslims from different countries who came to join various Islamist rebel units."
[Post edited 25 Nov 2015 14:49]
Its best not to quote John Kerry of all people on a subject like this...one of the biggest warhawks in the American government who wants us badly in there to topple the Assad regime so we can go in and carve the place up and let the contractors and corporations lose there like we did in Iraq...that's if ISIS does tn take over first...and yes the Syrian "rebels" are infested with Al Qaeda and ISIS..they are mainly mercenaries.
PROUD RECIPIENT OF THE THIRD PLANET SWANS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.
"Per ardua ad astra"
Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 15:40 - Nov 25 by trampie
You would have described ISIS as rebels 2 years ago Groo, fighting to overthrow a dictator and all that as you would have known no better.
Don't be a dull twot, ISIS has never been a rebel force, ISIS has never been a rebel force. ISIS is a break away of Al Qaeda that has declared a holy war and want to create a caliphate.
" Stage One (2004-2006) – The establishment of the branch of Al-Qaeda in Iraq led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and called “Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia:” It waged a terrorist-guerilla war against the American and coalition forces and against the Shi’ite population. The first stage ended when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was killed in an American targeted attack in June 2006.
Stage Two (2006-2011) – Establishment of the Islamic State in Iraq (ISI): ISI served as an umbrella network for several jihadi organizations that continued waging a terrorist-guerilla campaign against the United States, its coalition allies and the Shi’ite population. ISI was weakened towards the end of the American presence in Iraq following successful American military moves and a wise foreign policy that supported the Sunni population and knew how to win their hearts and minds.
Stage Three (2012-June 2014) – The strengthening of ISI and the founding of ISIS: After the American army withdrew from Iraq ISI became stronger. Following the outbreak of the Syrian civil war ISI established a branch in Syria called the Al-Nusra Front (“support front”). Dissension broke out between ISI and its Syrian branch, leading to a rift between ISI and Al-Qaeda and the establishment of the Islamic State in Iraq and Greater Syria (ISIS).
Stage Four (as of June 2014) – Dramatic ISIS military achievements: The most prominent was the takeover of Mosul, the second largest city in Iraq. At the same time ISIS established its control in eastern Syria where it set up a governmental center (its “capital city”) in Al-Raqqah. In the wake of its success, ISIS declared the establishment of an “Islamic State” (IS) (or “Islamic Caliphate”) headed by an ISIS leader named Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. In September 2014 the United States declared a comprehensive campaign against ISIS, which is currently waging a fierce struggle against its many enemies both at home and abroad."
ISIS was Al Qaeda, ISIS has always been a terrorist organisation.
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Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 16:39 - Nov 25 with 2516 views
Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 16:25 - Nov 25 by Lord_Bony
Its best not to quote John Kerry of all people on a subject like this...one of the biggest warhawks in the American government who wants us badly in there to topple the Assad regime so we can go in and carve the place up and let the contractors and corporations lose there like we did in Iraq...that's if ISIS does tn take over first...and yes the Syrian "rebels" are infested with Al Qaeda and ISIS..they are mainly mercenaries.
Yes they are infiltrated with but they are not Al Qaeda or ISIS. Most actually fight against ISIS.
The rebels were originally Assad's own troops rebelling.
the whole thing is a mess there, but Putin's declaration that they are all ISIS and Al Qaeda is Putin's propaganda to justify bombing the rebels.
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Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 16:42 - Nov 25 with 2511 views
Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 16:25 - Nov 25 by Lord_Bony
Its best not to quote John Kerry of all people on a subject like this...one of the biggest warhawks in the American government who wants us badly in there to topple the Assad regime so we can go in and carve the place up and let the contractors and corporations lose there like we did in Iraq...that's if ISIS does tn take over first...and yes the Syrian "rebels" are infested with Al Qaeda and ISIS..they are mainly mercenaries.
I often hear this mantra uttered of them being "mainly mercenaries," Bony. I rather suspect that's a case of wishful thinking, as though they could just be bought off if a line of communication could be opened. I doubt there's much in the way of historical precedent for mercenaries turning themselves into human bombs, I mean where's the percentage in that?
I've been thinking today about the possibility of British ground forces being committed and have come to the conclusion that for the boys in the army they are on a hiding to nothing. When the ground push comes, and it will, then it would be a grim, dirty affair. A war of extermination. The Russians are the lads to tackle that, for British soldiers there will be the ever-present threat of the scum Lib-Lab-Tory nexus hanging them out to dry afterwards.
To fight and die for Queen and Country is one thing, to have a dagger plunged into your back by a bastard like Corbyn is something else entirely.
An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.
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Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 16:51 - Nov 25 with 2503 views
Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 16:36 - Nov 25 by Groo
Don't be a dull twot, ISIS has never been a rebel force, ISIS has never been a rebel force. ISIS is a break away of Al Qaeda that has declared a holy war and want to create a caliphate.
" Stage One (2004-2006) – The establishment of the branch of Al-Qaeda in Iraq led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and called “Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia:” It waged a terrorist-guerilla war against the American and coalition forces and against the Shi’ite population. The first stage ended when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was killed in an American targeted attack in June 2006.
Stage Two (2006-2011) – Establishment of the Islamic State in Iraq (ISI): ISI served as an umbrella network for several jihadi organizations that continued waging a terrorist-guerilla campaign against the United States, its coalition allies and the Shi’ite population. ISI was weakened towards the end of the American presence in Iraq following successful American military moves and a wise foreign policy that supported the Sunni population and knew how to win their hearts and minds.
Stage Three (2012-June 2014) – The strengthening of ISI and the founding of ISIS: After the American army withdrew from Iraq ISI became stronger. Following the outbreak of the Syrian civil war ISI established a branch in Syria called the Al-Nusra Front (“support front”). Dissension broke out between ISI and its Syrian branch, leading to a rift between ISI and Al-Qaeda and the establishment of the Islamic State in Iraq and Greater Syria (ISIS).
Stage Four (as of June 2014) – Dramatic ISIS military achievements: The most prominent was the takeover of Mosul, the second largest city in Iraq. At the same time ISIS established its control in eastern Syria where it set up a governmental center (its “capital city”) in Al-Raqqah. In the wake of its success, ISIS declared the establishment of an “Islamic State” (IS) (or “Islamic Caliphate”) headed by an ISIS leader named Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. In September 2014 the United States declared a comprehensive campaign against ISIS, which is currently waging a fierce struggle against its many enemies both at home and abroad."
ISIS was Al Qaeda, ISIS has always been a terrorist organisation.
A definition of a rebel is - a person who opposes an established government.
Therefore ISIS are rebels.
[Post edited 25 Nov 2015 16:55]
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Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 13:35 - Nov 24 by Lord_Bony
Top U.S, Democrat calls on Obama to stop helping ISIS and a potential showdown with the Russians...well done that lady,talks a lot of sense here....
Tulsi Gabbard, D-Hawaii, said the U.S. and Russia are on a collision course over Syria that could result in World War III if not de-escalated.
Wolf Blitzer asked her how that collision could be avoided. Her answer was as follows:
“Very simple. The U.S. and the CIA should stop this illegal and counter-productive war to overthrow the Syrian government of Assad and should stay focused on fighting against who our enemy is, the Islamic extremist groups,” she said. “Because right now we’re seeing why this is counter-productive, by working towards that end, by working toward the overthrow of Assad we are not only strengthening our enemy, the Islamic extremists, who will walk in and take over all of the country Syria, right now they have about half of the country under their control, but it also puts us in that position of a potential direct head to head conflict with Russia which brings us to the brink of a potential larger conflict, a potential World War III situation.”
Hers something I posted earlier in the thread...This is a top Democrat speaking out against HELPING ISIS. The Rebels comprise a large part of left over mercenaries from the wars in Iraq,Libya and Afghanistan...there probably are a fair amount of Syrians there also I m not saying but dont think these guys are innocent...they will fight for any side that pays the most.
Putin is right.
God help us if we had boots on the ground there...it would be messy.
PROUD RECIPIENT OF THE THIRD PLANET SWANS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.
"Per ardua ad astra"
We should not have been in Afghanistan and Iraq at the times we were but we should be in Syria now, there are immigrants coming our way more than ever and there are terrorists attacking us from that part of the World more than ever.
The British military aren't up to it [it was said they rarely could go more than a few yards from their base on patrol in Afghanistan], but need to be there all the same to show solidarity with the main coalition if there was boots on the ground, the good old Russian soldier is the boy for it, they did the most to win the 2ndWW and they have had major problems with Islamist terrorists in the past so might be the best hope to restoring order in that part of the World.
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Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 17:07 - Nov 25 by trampie
We should not have been in Afghanistan and Iraq at the times we were but we should be in Syria now, there are immigrants coming our way more than ever and there are terrorists attacking us from that part of the World more than ever.
The British military aren't up to it [it was said they rarely could go more than a few yards from their base on patrol in Afghanistan], but need to be there all the same to show solidarity with the main coalition if there was boots on the ground, the good old Russian soldier is the boy for it, they did the most to win the 2ndWW and they have had major problems with Islamist terrorists in the past so might be the best hope to restoring order in that part of the World.
The British military isn't up to it?
Please. please, go to a group of soldiers and tell them that.
The reason we would not be good for a ground fight is because of the political aspects, they would not be able to do what they need to do to protect themselves and win because of the Corbyn types who would crucify them after.
Whereas Putin couldn't care less, if he needed to destroy a village, women and children and all, he would, he wouldn't care, anyone raise a politically correct objection would just quietly disappear.
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Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 17:41 - Nov 25 with 2447 views
Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 17:34 - Nov 25 by Groo
The British military isn't up to it?
Please. please, go to a group of soldiers and tell them that.
The reason we would not be good for a ground fight is because of the political aspects, they would not be able to do what they need to do to protect themselves and win because of the Corbyn types who would crucify them after.
Whereas Putin couldn't care less, if he needed to destroy a village, women and children and all, he would, he wouldn't care, anyone raise a politically correct objection would just quietly disappear.
The British military has low numbers and poor equipment, sad to say as the British soldier over the years has been as good as you will get but at the moment they would not be able to fight their way out of a paper bag.
Continually being banned by Planet Swans for Porthcawl and then being reinstated.
Russian warplanne shot down by Turkey (who are in NATO) on 17:41 - Nov 25 by trampie
The British military has low numbers and poor equipment, sad to say as the British soldier over the years has been as good as you will get but at the moment they would not be able to fight their way out of a paper bag.
Yes screwed no independent nuclear weapons, the Americans have control, we have to call on the French if we think there is an enemy sub in our waters as we don't have good enough detection systems, we have no planes for an aircraft carrier, guns that would not work in the heat or the cold, regiments disbanded or amalgamated and we have no capability to fight overseas on our own anymore and we would not cope if one of the big boys came knocking at our door. Its a sorry state but there you go people vote Conservative and Labour for tax cuts and the price is that society is breaking down as there is not enough coin to go round.
[Post edited 25 Nov 2015 23:01]
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The Turkmen are now getting it big time Russia wasted no time in retaliating against the Turkmen for shooting at, and likely killing, the downed Russian pilot as he dropped helplessly with his parachute from his crippled aircraft. Just minutes ago, (9:00 AM EST) an enormous barrage of Russian Cruise Missiles launched from Russian warships in the Mediterranean, began exploding in the region where the Russian pilot was killed yesterday.
In addition, at least twelve (12) Russian bombers / attack fighters, began precision bombing of Turkman facilities and villages in Syria, all along the Turkish border. The attack is so ferocious, Turkey put its Border Troops on elevated "alert" then raised that status to "Full Alert" because the Russian attacks just kept getting bigger.
Prosser the Tosser dwells on Phil's bum hole like a rusty old hemorrhoid ,fact
You Greedy Bastards Get Out Of OUR Club!
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