| Next firebreak 22:16 - Nov 16 with 18747 views | controversial_jack |
From a source at the Welsh assembly, 21st December. |  | | |  |
| Next firebreak on 19:26 - Nov 17 with 1443 views | controversial_jack |
| Next firebreak on 19:14 - Nov 17 by Scotia |
Experience would say the answer to the headline is "no" |
The content suggests they are. Why would a small person not spread the virus in exactly the same way as a larger one would.The virus doesn't differentiate between some of 20k and someone of 80kg | | | |
| Next firebreak on 19:31 - Nov 17 with 1439 views | Scotia |
| Next firebreak on 19:26 - Nov 17 by controversial_jack |
The content suggests they are. Why would a small person not spread the virus in exactly the same way as a larger one would.The virus doesn't differentiate between some of 20k and someone of 80kg |
No it doesn't. It's about people up to the age of 22, and only considered 42. Oh, and its the Daily Mail.
It certainly seems to be less contagious from younger children. I don't know why, perhaps it's down to lung capacity and the amount of breath exhaled? As they are asymptomatic they won't be coughing it everywhere.
Anyway kids aren't super spreaders to anywhere like the degree of flu.
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/facts/questions-answers-school-transmissi | | | |
| Next firebreak on 19:40 - Nov 17 with 1429 views | Highjack |
| Next firebreak on 19:03 - Nov 17 by controversial_jack |
They were told by their head office not to challenge customers.Council official said, stores are failing in their duty of care to customers in not enforcing the mask rules.
They are perfectly entailed to refuse entry to those who don't comply, but the stores themselves to implement this policy.
I thought it was law, that masks were mandatory in public buildings and not just guidlines.
I haven't been there since and won't either. |
The guidelines are obviously based on the law, and no they can’t refuse entry to anyone who doesn’t comply.
The law states that they are mandatory in public buildings but there are exceptions for people who can’t wear masks because of a reason associated with their physical or mental health and these people should not be asked for proof of their health problem. If someone isn’t wearing a mask you would be breaking the law to ask for proof of disability and you can’t refuse entry to someone on grounds of disability either. So if somebody says they can not wear a mask then that’s the end of it, they have to be let in and treated like any other customer. They are there legally and are perfectly entitled not to wear a mask. The council official you spoke to obviously doesn’t know his arse from his elbow. |  |
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| Next firebreak on 19:47 - Nov 17 with 1422 views | onehunglow |
| Next firebreak on 19:40 - Nov 17 by Highjack |
The guidelines are obviously based on the law, and no they can’t refuse entry to anyone who doesn’t comply.
The law states that they are mandatory in public buildings but there are exceptions for people who can’t wear masks because of a reason associated with their physical or mental health and these people should not be asked for proof of their health problem. If someone isn’t wearing a mask you would be breaking the law to ask for proof of disability and you can’t refuse entry to someone on grounds of disability either. So if somebody says they can not wear a mask then that’s the end of it, they have to be let in and treated like any other customer. They are there legally and are perfectly entitled not to wear a mask. The council official you spoke to obviously doesn’t know his arse from his elbow. |
All of which makes the regulations a crock of crap .You cannot have regulations/laws without them being enforced.
They should not be called mandatory
.If people cannot wear a mask then they should have someone to shop for them instead of being with someone who does wear one,as is often the case. | |
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| Next firebreak on 20:02 - Nov 17 with 1413 views | exhmrc1 |
| Next firebreak on 18:52 - Nov 17 by Scotia |
Well that's nonsense.
If it weren't couldn't Drakeford allow libraries to stay open for children to use?
It doesn't change the fact that university libraries were open in areas such as Jersey Marine and Cathays, both areas of high infection, but a library in somewhere of far lower infection, say Penderry, was closed. Even to the most deprived kids in the city. |
University libraries are on campus and the only people who will be there will be students and university staff. Students tend to mix with other students and if they are on campus are living in HMOs nearby it is only likely to spread amongst the general community. They live and breathe with other students whether that be in lectures, halls etc.
General libraries are for everyone and the users are mingling with others old and new. I used to call in central and guess what I came across a former teacher and his wife. He was 86 and his wife in her 70s. They were not the older ones there. It is far more likely to spread to people in danger than it would in a university library. | | | |
| Next firebreak on 20:14 - Nov 17 with 1403 views | Scotia |
| Next firebreak on 20:02 - Nov 17 by exhmrc1 |
University libraries are on campus and the only people who will be there will be students and university staff. Students tend to mix with other students and if they are on campus are living in HMOs nearby it is only likely to spread amongst the general community. They live and breathe with other students whether that be in lectures, halls etc.
General libraries are for everyone and the users are mingling with others old and new. I used to call in central and guess what I came across a former teacher and his wife. He was 86 and his wife in her 70s. They were not the older ones there. It is far more likely to spread to people in danger than it would in a university library. |
University staff could easily be in a vulnerable age bracket as could mature students.
As I've said all along, all that needs to be done is for people to think outside of the box a little, is there any reason why children could not have been allowed to access the library? | | | |
| Next firebreak on 20:35 - Nov 17 with 1388 views | exhmrc1 |
| Next firebreak on 20:14 - Nov 17 by Scotia |
University staff could easily be in a vulnerable age bracket as could mature students.
As I've said all along, all that needs to be done is for people to think outside of the box a little, is there any reason why children could not have been allowed to access the library? |
We followed your ideas before. Opened borders, pubs, gyms, libraries, borders etc. Look where it got us. From 8 cases on 12 August to 1737 on 30 October. Swansea Bay health board had no cases. Now it has 227 inpatients with covid. Penderry doesnt have much less cases than Brynmill 17 to 22 and more than Sketty 13.
There will be far fewer people at university in the at risk category than outside. Those in serious risk would be on furlough or working from home. Students are claiming they are paying for courses and accommodation under false pretences as most classes are online.
Following your ideas is what led us to where we are now. I for one wont want to follow your failed ideas. | | | |
| Next firebreak on 20:46 - Nov 17 with 1376 views | Scotia |
| Next firebreak on 20:35 - Nov 17 by exhmrc1 |
We followed your ideas before. Opened borders, pubs, gyms, libraries, borders etc. Look where it got us. From 8 cases on 12 August to 1737 on 30 October. Swansea Bay health board had no cases. Now it has 227 inpatients with covid. Penderry doesnt have much less cases than Brynmill 17 to 22 and more than Sketty 13.
There will be far fewer people at university in the at risk category than outside. Those in serious risk would be on furlough or working from home. Students are claiming they are paying for courses and accommodation under false pretences as most classes are online.
Following your ideas is what led us to where we are now. I for one wont want to follow your failed ideas. |
So there is no reason why libraries couldn't open for kids then?
Those things could not stay closed. That is impossible. The main reason we are in this situation is a lack of robust enforcement and a complete failure of test and trace.
Would you forego a significant portion of your state pension to subsidise someone on furlough from a minimum wage job for an entire year?
Anyway, we've been here before, you can't understand it and it's not what this thread is about. | | | |
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| Next firebreak on 20:53 - Nov 17 with 1370 views | Highjack |
| Next firebreak on 19:47 - Nov 17 by onehunglow |
All of which makes the regulations a crock of crap .You cannot have regulations/laws without them being enforced.
They should not be called mandatory
.If people cannot wear a mask then they should have someone to shop for them instead of being with someone who does wear one,as is often the case. |
Well take it up with Dippy Drakeford and the people who make the laws. The law is quite clear that if you can’t wear a mask you don’t have to, so anyone not wearing a mask in B&M, Lidl’s or anywhere else are perfectly legally entitled not to and the shops are not allowed to challenge or enforce as the law also states you don’t have to give proof of disability.
It’s Dippy Drakeford and Bungling Boris and the rest of the incompetent charlatans you should be ripping in to. Not some poor Lidl’s manager who has probably had nothing but abuse day in day out since all this started. | |
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| Next firebreak on 21:09 - Nov 17 with 1363 views | exhmrc1 |
| Next firebreak on 20:46 - Nov 17 by Scotia |
So there is no reason why libraries couldn't open for kids then?
Those things could not stay closed. That is impossible. The main reason we are in this situation is a lack of robust enforcement and a complete failure of test and trace.
Would you forego a significant portion of your state pension to subsidise someone on furlough from a minimum wage job for an entire year?
Anyway, we've been here before, you can't understand it and it's not what this thread is about. |
I do understand it. 240 people in hospital in one health board. These are real people. How many deaths in the last 2 months in Swansea Bay following 3 months without a single death. Real people dying so you could have all these things open. People unable to get treatment because 9 wards are dealing with coronavirus. I put those things top of my agenda. You put opening things up instead. | | | |
| Next firebreak on 21:50 - Nov 17 with 1354 views | Scotia |
| Next firebreak on 21:09 - Nov 17 by exhmrc1 |
I do understand it. 240 people in hospital in one health board. These are real people. How many deaths in the last 2 months in Swansea Bay following 3 months without a single death. Real people dying so you could have all these things open. People unable to get treatment because 9 wards are dealing with coronavirus. I put those things top of my agenda. You put opening things up instead. |
What and who do you think pays for their treatment?
How many people do you think would end up in hospital if they were expected to live in complete poverty for a year.
I'm attempting to suggest a balance, you are only thinking of your own interests.
As you didn't, and never have answered my question here's a suggestion. What if the state pension was completely diverted to pay for furlough and to support businesses and pensioners were given food parcel's and housing benefit instead?
You are completely untouched by lockdown, as am I, but I can see the bigger picture. You don't understand at all. | | | |
| Next firebreak on 22:08 - Nov 17 with 1351 views | exhmrc1 |
| Next firebreak on 21:50 - Nov 17 by Scotia |
What and who do you think pays for their treatment?
How many people do you think would end up in hospital if they were expected to live in complete poverty for a year.
I'm attempting to suggest a balance, you are only thinking of your own interests.
As you didn't, and never have answered my question here's a suggestion. What if the state pension was completely diverted to pay for furlough and to support businesses and pensioners were given food parcel's and housing benefit instead?
You are completely untouched by lockdown, as am I, but I can see the bigger picture. You don't understand at all. |
I understand perfectly will but 80 people have died in Swansea Bay Health Board alone since October and it has occurred for the reasons you wanted. The reality is that there isnt a middle way and it isnt all about enforcement. If your middle way involves all these people dying then I dont agree with it. You dont seem to get that. I believe in saving lives, preventing people becoming ill and taking actions to ensure that as was done pre August.
It is no coincidence that the likes of Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia etc that kept their borders closed have had such few deaths whilst places like UK, USA, France and Spain are suffering huge amounts of deaths and have been able to keep their economies running better than ours.
We have brought mask wearing in. Since that time cases have rocketed and so have deaths. People see masks as being safe and forget the most important principle of social distancing.
The UK government is going to allow people to go abroad for Christmas. This is going to create another surge in cases and another huge spike. We have a transatlantic jumbo flight with supposed covid free people. How can anyone know that. You can test negative one day and then 3 days later it comes out. This is the kind of folly that isnt allowed where cases have been lowest. | | | |
| Next firebreak on 22:20 - Nov 17 with 1340 views | Scotia |
| Next firebreak on 22:08 - Nov 17 by exhmrc1 |
I understand perfectly will but 80 people have died in Swansea Bay Health Board alone since October and it has occurred for the reasons you wanted. The reality is that there isnt a middle way and it isnt all about enforcement. If your middle way involves all these people dying then I dont agree with it. You dont seem to get that. I believe in saving lives, preventing people becoming ill and taking actions to ensure that as was done pre August.
It is no coincidence that the likes of Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia etc that kept their borders closed have had such few deaths whilst places like UK, USA, France and Spain are suffering huge amounts of deaths and have been able to keep their economies running better than ours.
We have brought mask wearing in. Since that time cases have rocketed and so have deaths. People see masks as being safe and forget the most important principle of social distancing.
The UK government is going to allow people to go abroad for Christmas. This is going to create another surge in cases and another huge spike. We have a transatlantic jumbo flight with supposed covid free people. How can anyone know that. You can test negative one day and then 3 days later it comes out. This is the kind of folly that isnt allowed where cases have been lowest. |
More pointless words and not a point addressed. It is like talking to a wall.
We are nothing like Singapore, Malaysia or Taiwan. But actually quite a bit like Spain and France. Again you don't understand that.
There has to be a middle way. We can't financially afford a full lockdown until all vulnerable people have been vaccinated, you may be able to afford to but the nation and millions of others couldn't, and the lockdown on its own would cause excess deaths. We can't afford to live a normal life as that would overwhelm the health service.
If one thing is going to cause a spike its the release from the Firebreak that we have seen. It's insane. | | | |
| Next firebreak on 23:17 - Nov 17 with 1310 views | controversial_jack |
| Next firebreak on 19:40 - Nov 17 by Highjack |
The guidelines are obviously based on the law, and no they can’t refuse entry to anyone who doesn’t comply.
The law states that they are mandatory in public buildings but there are exceptions for people who can’t wear masks because of a reason associated with their physical or mental health and these people should not be asked for proof of their health problem. If someone isn’t wearing a mask you would be breaking the law to ask for proof of disability and you can’t refuse entry to someone on grounds of disability either. So if somebody says they can not wear a mask then that’s the end of it, they have to be let in and treated like any other customer. They are there legally and are perfectly entitled not to wear a mask. The council official you spoke to obviously doesn’t know his arse from his elbow. |
Any premise can refuse entry to anyone at any time, obviously nothing that's prejudicial though.
Under common laws premises can do this. Doormen, bar staff, shop assistants have the right to do so. The police can even be called to issue fines etc.
They have a duty of care to all it's customers , not just a few
Shops just don't want the hassle though, but they will be the first to complain when they are shut down again.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2020 23:19]
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| Next firebreak on 23:22 - Nov 17 with 1308 views | exhmrc1 |
| Next firebreak on 22:20 - Nov 17 by Scotia |
More pointless words and not a point addressed. It is like talking to a wall.
We are nothing like Singapore, Malaysia or Taiwan. But actually quite a bit like Spain and France. Again you don't understand that.
There has to be a middle way. We can't financially afford a full lockdown until all vulnerable people have been vaccinated, you may be able to afford to but the nation and millions of others couldn't, and the lockdown on its own would cause excess deaths. We can't afford to live a normal life as that would overwhelm the health service.
If one thing is going to cause a spike its the release from the Firebreak that we have seen. It's insane. |
Where has been successful using your middle way. It hasnt worked in the UK, France, Spain, Italy, Belgium, USA etc. In fact, it doesnt seem to have worked anywhere and it certainly hasnt worked in Wales since your proposals were followed. 8 cases in a day to over 1700 speaks for itself as does 80 deaths in less than 2 months in Swansea Bay alone and no cases to 240 in Swansea Bay Health Board Hospitals. | | | |
| Next firebreak on 00:01 - Nov 18 with 1301 views | Highjack |
| Next firebreak on 23:17 - Nov 17 by controversial_jack |
Any premise can refuse entry to anyone at any time, obviously nothing that's prejudicial though.
Under common laws premises can do this. Doormen, bar staff, shop assistants have the right to do so. The police can even be called to issue fines etc.
They have a duty of care to all it's customers , not just a few
Shops just don't want the hassle though, but they will be the first to complain when they are shut down again.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2020 23:19]
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“Obviously nothing that’s prejudicial though”.
That’s exactly what it would be if entry was refused on this basis.
Premises can refuse entry for lots of reasons, for example if someone is drunk or aggressive or is displaying any sort of disruptive behaviour but the laws on covid restrictions say you cannot routinely ask for proof of exemption from wearing a mask. Refusing entry on this basis alone is by its very nature prejudice on the grounds of disability.
If you were a shop owner would you be comfortable refusing entry to somebody because they are autistic or suffer extreme anxiety? They could take you to the cleaners. | |
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| Next firebreak on 00:08 - Nov 18 with 1299 views | chad |
| Next firebreak on 06:16 - Nov 17 by Kilkennyjack |
It will be based on the science in Wales.
If we need another break then i guess they will use the school holidays again.
Can they find dates to allow people to enjoy Christmas with close family and friends ?
NYE might have to go, although pubs will lobby against.
No firm dates will be agreed yet.
People are just thinking through the options and they are right to do it. |
“It will be based on the science in Wales”
Whose version of “the science”, given science is not an exact science
If “the science” says cancel Christmas, will it still be “based on the science”? |  | | |
| Next firebreak on 00:13 - Nov 18 with 1297 views | controversial_jack |
| Next firebreak on 00:01 - Nov 18 by Highjack |
“Obviously nothing that’s prejudicial though”.
That’s exactly what it would be if entry was refused on this basis.
Premises can refuse entry for lots of reasons, for example if someone is drunk or aggressive or is displaying any sort of disruptive behaviour but the laws on covid restrictions say you cannot routinely ask for proof of exemption from wearing a mask. Refusing entry on this basis alone is by its very nature prejudice on the grounds of disability.
If you were a shop owner would you be comfortable refusing entry to somebody because they are autistic or suffer extreme anxiety? They could take you to the cleaners. |
It has nothing to do with prejudice. It's for the safety of the customers and their duty of care
I have seen many with masks not covering their noses, staff included. I deliberately avoid those i see not wearing masks. | | | |
| Next firebreak on 01:10 - Nov 18 with 1282 views | Highjack |
| Next firebreak on 00:13 - Nov 18 by controversial_jack |
It has nothing to do with prejudice. It's for the safety of the customers and their duty of care
I have seen many with masks not covering their noses, staff included. I deliberately avoid those i see not wearing masks. |
Does the safety of those that can’t wear masks due to physical or mental health issues not matter? | |
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| Next firebreak on 06:32 - Nov 18 with 1262 views | Scotia |
| Next firebreak on 23:22 - Nov 17 by exhmrc1 |
Where has been successful using your middle way. It hasnt worked in the UK, France, Spain, Italy, Belgium, USA etc. In fact, it doesnt seem to have worked anywhere and it certainly hasnt worked in Wales since your proposals were followed. 8 cases in a day to over 1700 speaks for itself as does 80 deaths in less than 2 months in Swansea Bay alone and no cases to 240 in Swansea Bay Health Board Hospitals. |
Again you haven't answered my direct question because a lockdown doesn't effect you.
The middle way hasn't been tried in Wales for long enough to have an impact - don't forget the WG let pubs, restaurants and gyms open with no guidance. Something you strangely seemed to advocate? We now seem to have reverted to too few restrictions again.
I don't think you even know what a balance is? We can't eliminate the virus we have to MINIMISE impact but allow the economy and society to be as open as possible.
You answer my question and I'll give you a list. You don't have to look far?. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 6:37]
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| Next firebreak on 06:51 - Nov 18 with 1256 views | Scotia |
| Next firebreak on 23:17 - Nov 17 by controversial_jack |
Any premise can refuse entry to anyone at any time, obviously nothing that's prejudicial though.
Under common laws premises can do this. Doormen, bar staff, shop assistants have the right to do so. The police can even be called to issue fines etc.
They have a duty of care to all it's customers , not just a few
Shops just don't want the hassle though, but they will be the first to complain when they are shut down again.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2020 23:19]
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It's not an easy situation to balance. To a certain extent the government are expecting shop and other business owners to do their dirty work for them.
Personally I haven't really seen an issue with masks not being worn in shops, but I went to watch the rugby in a club in Swansea last week. My mate is steward and was telling people, regular members, to wear a mask if they were moving around. He was regularly told to f off.
Its needs proper enforcement from the start, but Swansea only put out a job advert for the staff last month. | | | |
| Next firebreak on 11:02 - Nov 18 with 1218 views | exhmrc1 |
| Next firebreak on 06:32 - Nov 18 by Scotia |
Again you haven't answered my direct question because a lockdown doesn't effect you.
The middle way hasn't been tried in Wales for long enough to have an impact - don't forget the WG let pubs, restaurants and gyms open with no guidance. Something you strangely seemed to advocate? We now seem to have reverted to too few restrictions again.
I don't think you even know what a balance is? We can't eliminate the virus we have to MINIMISE impact but allow the economy and society to be as open as possible.
You answer my question and I'll give you a list. You don't have to look far?. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 6:37]
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It has been tried since August opening pubs, gyms, borders, school as you wanted and the results are there for everyone to see. Once coronavirus gets anywhere it spreads and that is the lesson from here and elsewhere in the world. The only countries who have been successful are those closing borders which you dont want. You want your cake and eat it but it doesnt work and has proven to be the case. | | | |
| Next firebreak on 11:05 - Nov 18 with 1215 views | Gwyn737 |
| Next firebreak on 19:47 - Nov 17 by onehunglow |
All of which makes the regulations a crock of crap .You cannot have regulations/laws without them being enforced.
They should not be called mandatory
.If people cannot wear a mask then they should have someone to shop for them instead of being with someone who does wear one,as is often the case. |
Just wait until the anti-vax lot come out in the spring...
That's going to be fun  | | | |
| Next firebreak on 11:06 - Nov 18 with 1213 views | controversial_jack |
| Next firebreak on 01:10 - Nov 18 by Highjack |
Does the safety of those that can’t wear masks due to physical or mental health issues not matter? |
There's no reason to not wear a piece of cloth over the mouth and nose. if so so , order online and don't put the safety of others at risk | | | |
| Next firebreak on 11:08 - Nov 18 with 1210 views | controversial_jack |
| Next firebreak on 06:51 - Nov 18 by Scotia |
It's not an easy situation to balance. To a certain extent the government are expecting shop and other business owners to do their dirty work for them.
Personally I haven't really seen an issue with masks not being worn in shops, but I went to watch the rugby in a club in Swansea last week. My mate is steward and was telling people, regular members, to wear a mask if they were moving around. He was regularly told to f off.
Its needs proper enforcement from the start, but Swansea only put out a job advert for the staff last month. |
They should have been thrown out and had their names taken and banned [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 11:10]
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