| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... 07:41 - Apr 30 with 5110 views | stuabd |
HR keeps mentioning the need to get the right sort of characters in the squad. Anyone got any ideas of players with that kind of spirit that we could get in?
I know we can't buy Jon Walters, but I think he's the 'sort' you're looking for. Good attitude, works hard and is a leader as well. I know we nearly got him before Stoke came in for him, and he would have been a good signing.
We could also probably do with a couple of big, horrible cnts like Holt just to get through a long hard season. Barton and Holt together in the same side :).
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 11:22 - Apr 30 with 983 views | Hunterhoop |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 11:10 - Apr 30 by BrianMcCarthy |
Strange thing is that The Red Sox owners used Moneyball to win them the two World Series and only of late, and in their Liverpool dealings, did they veer away from it. I get your point that Carrol et al were signed with stats research but because of their massive transfer fees they were not true Moneyball signings ie stats to value ratio should have disqualified them.
Now, the same Red Sox owners are going back to Moneyball thinking but with one added rider - character. Moneyball has never before factored in character, which was its downfall. I listen to podcasts where statistics heads regularly dispute that wins have any correlation with character, morale or even the manager's ability! |
True, But value is all about what your willing to pay for a set of skills/numbers.
So with the Boston Red Sox, and certainly with the Oakland As, that price they were willing to pay was set at a really low level. For Liverpool clearly they were willing to pay for to get a set of skills/numbers. Perhaps the financial rewards for winning the Prem (TV, merchandise, Champ League, etc) are greated than in baseball so the goalposts are moved somewhat. But yes, it does seem strange, I agree.
With regards to this "character" element. It's subjective and can't be quantified, so it doesn't sit easy with a stats based approach. Stats people will say, we're just looking at the effects...the results...not what caused them necessarily. So, for whatever reason player x has a great first base % / shots on target ratio, even though he never scores home runs/scores fro 30 yards and so has gone under the radar somewhat. They won't look into WHY he has such a great shots on target ratio. That could be due to temperament, "understanding his game", "character", lack of desire to score wonder goals, etc, etc....all subjective, unquantifiable variables.
I think character has a HUGE part to play in sport and life and the success and failure therein. But judging someone else's character is completely subjective.
By allowing the inclusion of this into a moneyball approach, you are, by definition diluting the moneyball approach. You're putting some more power back in the hands of the manager and his judgement. |  | | |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 11:28 - Apr 30 with 975 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 11:22 - Apr 30 by Hunterhoop |
True, But value is all about what your willing to pay for a set of skills/numbers.
So with the Boston Red Sox, and certainly with the Oakland As, that price they were willing to pay was set at a really low level. For Liverpool clearly they were willing to pay for to get a set of skills/numbers. Perhaps the financial rewards for winning the Prem (TV, merchandise, Champ League, etc) are greated than in baseball so the goalposts are moved somewhat. But yes, it does seem strange, I agree.
With regards to this "character" element. It's subjective and can't be quantified, so it doesn't sit easy with a stats based approach. Stats people will say, we're just looking at the effects...the results...not what caused them necessarily. So, for whatever reason player x has a great first base % / shots on target ratio, even though he never scores home runs/scores fro 30 yards and so has gone under the radar somewhat. They won't look into WHY he has such a great shots on target ratio. That could be due to temperament, "understanding his game", "character", lack of desire to score wonder goals, etc, etc....all subjective, unquantifiable variables.
I think character has a HUGE part to play in sport and life and the success and failure therein. But judging someone else's character is completely subjective.
By allowing the inclusion of this into a moneyball approach, you are, by definition diluting the moneyball approach. You're putting some more power back in the hands of the manager and his judgement. |
"By allowing the inclusion of this into a moneyball approach, you are, by definition diluting the moneyball approach. You're putting some more power back in the hands of the manager and his judgement."
True, which the statheads in the stands and front office don't like.
You're bang on that character and other mental facets can't be divided from a player's stats, but are factored in. What's not factored in, is much harder to define, and what blows the heads off the stattos is the effect that one player's character has on the performance of his teammates! You and I know that having a man like Alan McDonald as your centre-back partner, captain or squad mate will help enormously.Stattos are only just coming to accept this publicly.
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 11:37 - Apr 30 with 964 views | fakekerby |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 10:59 - Apr 30 by Hunterhoop |
Yes.
But you do know Liverpool's owners (aka Boston Red Sox owners - the team who tried to pick up Brad Pitt's character at the end, and who embraced "moneyball" strategy anyway...and won world series with it) tried to do it at Liverpool.
In the summer:
They signed Carroll after he'd had the most headed goals in the Prem league. They signed Downing after he'd had the most assists and completed crossed in the Prem.
They signed Adam after he'd scored the most free kicks and had high no. of assists from set pieces
They signed Jordan for the pass ratio and distance covered (I think) at Sunderland.
etc.
etc.
All those signings were moneyball signings.
Trouble was....two fold:
1) they were all pap next season
2) Daglish - in spite of clearly signing Downing and Carroll for one to supply the other in a 4-4-2 shape. Daglish only ever played them together twice ALL season. he didn't buy into it and scuppered it from the off.
A doubt there's a manager in football who agrees with the "Moneyball" philosophy, because most would see it as undermining the value of what they bring to the table. It's a philosophy of stats defeating subjective opinion. |
I think they were all signed based on the same stats - chances created. |  | | |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 11:40 - Apr 30 with 959 views | Hunterhoop |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 11:28 - Apr 30 by BrianMcCarthy |
"By allowing the inclusion of this into a moneyball approach, you are, by definition diluting the moneyball approach. You're putting some more power back in the hands of the manager and his judgement."
True, which the statheads in the stands and front office don't like.
You're bang on that character and other mental facets can't be divided from a player's stats, but are factored in. What's not factored in, is much harder to define, and what blows the heads off the stattos is the effect that one player's character has on the performance of his teammates! You and I know that having a man like Alan McDonald as your centre-back partner, captain or squad mate will help enormously.Stattos are only just coming to accept this publicly.
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Absolutely!
It's what makes the whole discussion and concept interesting. How do we know that said player didn't have such a good first base %/shots on target ration because he'd been taken under the wing by a senior pro (Furlong-esqu) who helped him understand his game...and how do we know how he'd perform without this individual's guidance?
And then there's the impact of the manager, the captain, the chairman, the crowd (did they get behind him early), etc, etc, etc.
As you say moneyball doesn't separate the cause from the effect.
I actually think it's a relatively flawed approach. You HAVE to rely on some form of judgement. A completely stats based approach is conceptually flawed.
I'm a big fan of causality as the key to most issues. The result will look after itself. It's not worth focusing on. Get the causes right and you'll go right.
I manage a Sunday League team, I've managed operations in the workplace of 100+ people. Culture, work ethos, "character", etc, are all hugely important in creating the correct environment which allows people to succeed. It allows you to move the boundaries of what is acceptable and what isn't so that everything is conducive to a way of working you think drives the best performance.
Take someone out of that environment and place them in one with a different, looser, approach to this style of management and they WILL not perform in the same way. SOME may flourish, but, if you've created the above work ethic which truly caters to the individual, as well as the team, then it'll be very rare. In most cases people will not perform as well. Lower levels of work rate and performance will be acceptable and they'll fall into the trap and regress to the median.
It's one of the reasons I thought Warnock's managerial approach in the Champ winning season was so spectacularly superb.
He created a great TEAM environment, where performance, work rate, etc were reverred and people performed for each other not just themselves, but at the same time he allowed for individuals to flourish, in the shape of Adel, which other players accepted and respected. That is a VERY hard culture to create. He deserves a lot of credit for succeeding in doing so.
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 11:45 - Apr 30 with 954 views | rbsranger |
The moneyball analogy does not translate well to Football. Baseball is a game of statistics and individual acts taking place virtually a vacuum. Football is a living organism and cannot use metrics to measure worth.
A good or great manager is able to turn problematic players into effective leaders for a team (see Ferguson with Cantona for instance), an average manager will end up watching Joey Barton lose his cool in the biggest game of the year.... |  | | |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 11:51 - Apr 30 with 946 views | Hunterhoop |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 11:45 - Apr 30 by rbsranger |
The moneyball analogy does not translate well to Football. Baseball is a game of statistics and individual acts taking place virtually a vacuum. Football is a living organism and cannot use metrics to measure worth.
A good or great manager is able to turn problematic players into effective leaders for a team (see Ferguson with Cantona for instance), an average manager will end up watching Joey Barton lose his cool in the biggest game of the year.... |
I agree. I don't think it works well and still think it's very flawed for baseball or cricket where individual acts take place.
We're just debating it all because it's quite an interesting topic - well, I think so!
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 13:08 - Apr 30 with 880 views | DANRANGER |
The fact is we have a good squad and as a group (management included) they haven't functioned. Too many blaming others and not enough taking responsibility from within. I'm not sure it comes down to signing the right sorts as you'd class Hill/Derry/Mackie as such but they aren't going to keep us up or get us promoted. The players seemed to have accepted relegation a long time ago and the moments we have had that could have changed that we didn't take (Norwich (h) , Villa (a) for example) and it has deflated them even more and the attitude is they probably won't be here next year anyway and that is what we are seeing.
The biggest issue for me is the players need coaching and we are crying out for a pattern of play as sending them out expecting Adel / Remy or Townsend to win a game on their own each week is not working. Attacking, defending corners/free kicks, the basics of the game appear to be ignored. Our side changes week to week with no settled defence/midfield or attack, not acceptable, and the players are clearly struggling with it and in their own minds it's an excuse.
Look at Villa for example, I don't particular like Paul Lambert but if they stay up then full credit to him for sticking with a side throughout and more than likely reeping the rewards in the next few years. He has backed players from lower leagues in Lowton/Westwood/Delph etc and they have grown during an extremely difficult season.
So I wouldn't say we have players that don't want to work hard or have bad characters as they have not shown this at other clubs, I just feel that maybe Harry became a bit desperate thinking he has no time when he should have used the 1st month to work out his best side and stick with it throughout (a huge error that Hughes made also).
Biggest problem is changing the players attitudes towards the situation we are in and believing in the management is the key to this. |  | | |
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 15:05 - Apr 30 with 854 views | isawqpratwcity |
Most enjoyable thread in ages (I can't buy into 'who's good/who ain't'). Thank you. |  |
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 15:33 - Apr 30 with 842 views | MrGrieves |
We've already got a fair few. Harry needs to reassess some of them in light of relegation:
Faurlin
Hill
Derry
Onuoha
Mackie
Taarabt
Diakité (if he can get his head right)
Mbia
Jenas |  | | |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 15:46 - Apr 30 with 822 views | PinnerPaul |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 09:04 - Apr 30 by loftboy |
Trouble is you won't get a full season out of HH |
and Gorkks was dropped by Reading a long time ago. | | | |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 15:50 - Apr 30 with 821 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 08:55 - Apr 30 by fakekerby |
I'd make bringing back Gorkks & HH a priority. |
Gorkss who really wasn't good enough for us, or Reading, and got relegated with Wolves. Don't get me wrong, I love him, but no. We need to expand our horizons a bit. |  |
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 15:56 - Apr 30 with 814 views | WanderR |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 09:38 - Apr 30 by JonDoeman |
Scott Parker. |
Still wonder how different things would have been if we had managed to sign him instead of Barton. Would he been a better influence on and off the pitch? Would our performances been better? Would it have allowed us to keep Warnock as manager and avoid the whole Hughes fiasco or was Fernandes always going to swap him for a bigger name?
The stuff that keeps you up at night. |  |
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 15:56 - Apr 30 with 813 views | Northernr |
Gorkss is one of those players like Tommy Smith who is a very decent Championship player but not quite good enough for the league above. Nothing wrong with that, Malky Mackay enjoyed quite a decent career through joining a Championship side, captaining it to promotion and then leaving immediately to do the same again somewhere else - did it with Norwich, Watford and West Ham. We could do with three or four like them, even if it meant going back for people like Smith and Gorkss.
The thing is saying we need the "right sorts" and whatever is very easy. Unless the club deliberately went out last summer and bought the "wrong sorts" it means nothing whatsoever. They didn't deliberately go out and buy arsholes last summer, so what's to stop them doing it by accident again this time? |  | | |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 16:02 - Apr 30 with 804 views | A40Bosh |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 15:56 - Apr 30 by Northernr |
Gorkss is one of those players like Tommy Smith who is a very decent Championship player but not quite good enough for the league above. Nothing wrong with that, Malky Mackay enjoyed quite a decent career through joining a Championship side, captaining it to promotion and then leaving immediately to do the same again somewhere else - did it with Norwich, Watford and West Ham. We could do with three or four like them, even if it meant going back for people like Smith and Gorkss.
The thing is saying we need the "right sorts" and whatever is very easy. Unless the club deliberately went out last summer and bought the "wrong sorts" it means nothing whatsoever. They didn't deliberately go out and buy arsholes last summer, so what's to stop them doing it by accident again this time? |
so what's to stop them doing it by accident again this time?
I suppose the way to do it, but it is again a huge gamble, is to take away the big money transfer and/or wage structure so that incoming players are obviously not signing for the money.
However, that in itself may create even more factions in the already split dressing room as you will have the original "Promoted Championship Team" low earners, the "Premier Era" overpaid high earners and now the "Next Generation" low earners who will have a beef with both other factions, especially if they find out that Jamie Mackie and Clint Hill are on £500 a week more than them!! |  |
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 16:04 - Apr 30 with 780 views | MrGrieves |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 15:56 - Apr 30 by Northernr |
Gorkss is one of those players like Tommy Smith who is a very decent Championship player but not quite good enough for the league above. Nothing wrong with that, Malky Mackay enjoyed quite a decent career through joining a Championship side, captaining it to promotion and then leaving immediately to do the same again somewhere else - did it with Norwich, Watford and West Ham. We could do with three or four like them, even if it meant going back for people like Smith and Gorkss.
The thing is saying we need the "right sorts" and whatever is very easy. Unless the club deliberately went out last summer and bought the "wrong sorts" it means nothing whatsoever. They didn't deliberately go out and buy arsholes last summer, so what's to stop them doing it by accident again this time? |
I'd much rather there was a focus on actually improving the players we have rather than going out a signing even more players. Think we should see who we're able to keep and improve and then add a few young players who will retain some sell-on value if things don't work out. | | | |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 16:14 - Apr 30 with 773 views | Hunterhoop |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 16:02 - Apr 30 by A40Bosh |
so what's to stop them doing it by accident again this time?
I suppose the way to do it, but it is again a huge gamble, is to take away the big money transfer and/or wage structure so that incoming players are obviously not signing for the money.
However, that in itself may create even more factions in the already split dressing room as you will have the original "Promoted Championship Team" low earners, the "Premier Era" overpaid high earners and now the "Next Generation" low earners who will have a beef with both other factions, especially if they find out that Jamie Mackie and Clint Hill are on £500 a week more than them!! |
How about you go back to my original proposal?
You only sign players who are "beneath us" in the structure. Implement a policy of NO estlabished Prem league players signed. Their parent clubs would only be letting us go because they're on the wane. And if they were still good enough to play in the Prem, the only reason they'd join us is for the £££.
However, players, regardless if they're "tw*ts" or not, will be motivated and work hard if they come from beneath us in the pyramid and see us a great chance to get to the promised land (with us or not), but only if they do well for us. It's a no lose approach. And our financial power should mean we can outbid other Championship clubs for the cream of the "upcoming" crop. | | | |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 16:20 - Apr 30 with 766 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 15:56 - Apr 30 by Northernr |
Gorkss is one of those players like Tommy Smith who is a very decent Championship player but not quite good enough for the league above. Nothing wrong with that, Malky Mackay enjoyed quite a decent career through joining a Championship side, captaining it to promotion and then leaving immediately to do the same again somewhere else - did it with Norwich, Watford and West Ham. We could do with three or four like them, even if it meant going back for people like Smith and Gorkss.
The thing is saying we need the "right sorts" and whatever is very easy. Unless the club deliberately went out last summer and bought the "wrong sorts" it means nothing whatsoever. They didn't deliberately go out and buy arsholes last summer, so what's to stop them doing it by accident again this time? |
"The thing is saying we need the "right sorts" and whatever is very easy. Unless the club deliberately went out last summer and bought the "wrong sorts" it means nothing whatsoever. They didn't deliberately go out and buy arsholes last summer, so what's to stop them doing it by accident again this time?"
All true. As you say they didn't go shopping in the bargain bin of personalities deliberately. But we will almost certainly be buying and selling again (steady there, Harry, I didn't say wheeling and dealing) and we have time to ensure that this time we target players who are hungry, have a bit of steel about them, and who have been good team mates in their careers so far. There are no guarantees but past behaviour is a fair indicator of future behaviour.
After that, we might finally settle on a squad and actually work with them to make them better players. | |
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 16:25 - Apr 30 with 759 views | Northernr |
Yes, I was being a little facetious perhaps.
Of course there are obvious mistakes we made this time. I remember David Fraser saying on a Podcast I was on "who would have thought that two players who'd won everything there was to win at Chelsea and Man Utd and are coming to the end of their careers wouldn't want to muck in and fight for QPR" — and with hindsight of course it was a daft policy to pursue.
We can do things to make sure it doesn't happen again. A wage cap/structure that we don't break for anybody. Even Spurs pursuing Champions League football cap their salaries strictly. That will prevent the situation we have now where we have one centre back on £10k a week and another on £100k a week and neither of them playing that well!
Also look for younger players, rather than those looking for a final pay day. Players that are coming from smaller clubs or lower leagues that will see QPR as a step up and treat it with excitement and respect. And most importantly players with something to prove.
Not an exact science though. Few years back I saw a young Jermaine Beckford playing on loan at Scunthorpe and he was absolutely fantastic. Young — yes. Smaller club seeing QPR as a step up — yes. Something to prove — definitely, started at Wealdstone. Beckford has turned out to be a Class A bell end — exactly the sort of wnkr we're trying to ship out of our club rather than bring in.
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 16:45 - Apr 30 with 730 views | hoof_hearted |
Frank McLintock. Won the double then came to us and gave everything when he had nothing to prove to anyone. Just a tough, winner of a man.
There is plenty of precedent for winners still being winners for their entire lives.
We signed okay players from very good teams and not the "spine of the team" type players. Couple that with the uninspiring leadership qualities of the club captain and manager for the first half of the season. Add a pinch of seasoning and you have the recipe for sh!t pie. |  | | |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 16:45 - Apr 30 with 730 views | A40Bosh |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 16:25 - Apr 30 by Northernr |
Yes, I was being a little facetious perhaps.
Of course there are obvious mistakes we made this time. I remember David Fraser saying on a Podcast I was on "who would have thought that two players who'd won everything there was to win at Chelsea and Man Utd and are coming to the end of their careers wouldn't want to muck in and fight for QPR" — and with hindsight of course it was a daft policy to pursue.
We can do things to make sure it doesn't happen again. A wage cap/structure that we don't break for anybody. Even Spurs pursuing Champions League football cap their salaries strictly. That will prevent the situation we have now where we have one centre back on £10k a week and another on £100k a week and neither of them playing that well!
Also look for younger players, rather than those looking for a final pay day. Players that are coming from smaller clubs or lower leagues that will see QPR as a step up and treat it with excitement and respect. And most importantly players with something to prove.
Not an exact science though. Few years back I saw a young Jermaine Beckford playing on loan at Scunthorpe and he was absolutely fantastic. Young — yes. Smaller club seeing QPR as a step up — yes. Something to prove — definitely, started at Wealdstone. Beckford has turned out to be a Class A bell end — exactly the sort of wnkr we're trying to ship out of our club rather than bring in.
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and I suppose this is where we will have an opportunity now to see just how good HR is as a man manager and his ability to root out the wheat from the chaff and just how good his backroom staff are at working with under performing "talented" players who remain. I suppose just as importantly it will reflect the quality of his scouting contacts in bringing in the right calibre of players.
I suspect that before you bring in any new seedlings you have to first till the earth carefully and remove all the weeds, otherwise you just plant new seeds and they are quickly over grown and choked and never "bloom"
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 17:04 - Apr 30 with 715 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 16:25 - Apr 30 by Northernr |
Yes, I was being a little facetious perhaps.
Of course there are obvious mistakes we made this time. I remember David Fraser saying on a Podcast I was on "who would have thought that two players who'd won everything there was to win at Chelsea and Man Utd and are coming to the end of their careers wouldn't want to muck in and fight for QPR" — and with hindsight of course it was a daft policy to pursue.
We can do things to make sure it doesn't happen again. A wage cap/structure that we don't break for anybody. Even Spurs pursuing Champions League football cap their salaries strictly. That will prevent the situation we have now where we have one centre back on £10k a week and another on £100k a week and neither of them playing that well!
Also look for younger players, rather than those looking for a final pay day. Players that are coming from smaller clubs or lower leagues that will see QPR as a step up and treat it with excitement and respect. And most importantly players with something to prove.
Not an exact science though. Few years back I saw a young Jermaine Beckford playing on loan at Scunthorpe and he was absolutely fantastic. Young — yes. Smaller club seeing QPR as a step up — yes. Something to prove — definitely, started at Wealdstone. Beckford has turned out to be a Class A bell end — exactly the sort of wnkr we're trying to ship out of our club rather than bring in.
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Agree with all that. | |
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 17:27 - Apr 30 with 703 views | Northernr |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 16:45 - Apr 30 by hoof_hearted |
Frank McLintock. Won the double then came to us and gave everything when he had nothing to prove to anyone. Just a tough, winner of a man.
There is plenty of precedent for winners still being winners for their entire lives.
We signed okay players from very good teams and not the "spine of the team" type players. Couple that with the uninspiring leadership qualities of the club captain and manager for the first half of the season. Add a pinch of seasoning and you have the recipe for sh!t pie. |
Ray Wilkins as well. Great player for us, didn't need to be after the career he'd had.
Like I say not an exact science.
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| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 17:28 - Apr 30 with 700 views | Northernr |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 16:45 - Apr 30 by A40Bosh |
and I suppose this is where we will have an opportunity now to see just how good HR is as a man manager and his ability to root out the wheat from the chaff and just how good his backroom staff are at working with under performing "talented" players who remain. I suppose just as importantly it will reflect the quality of his scouting contacts in bringing in the right calibre of players.
I suspect that before you bring in any new seedlings you have to first till the earth carefully and remove all the weeds, otherwise you just plant new seeds and they are quickly over grown and choked and never "bloom"
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I think HR has more than proved himself as a man manager and his ability to seperate wheat from the chaff. What we're about to find out is just how motivated he is to do it all over again. I fear, from the way he speaks and his body language, that he's pretty much about to embark on this because he quite likes Fernandes, he hasn't had a better offer, and we pay him well rather than the real hunger and desire to work 24/7 to fix this which is what we really need. | | | |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 17:38 - Apr 30 with 695 views | Hunterhoop |
| Characters, right sorts, top blokes ... on 17:27 - Apr 30 by Northernr |
Ray Wilkins as well. Great player for us, didn't need to be after the career he'd had.
Like I say not an exact science.
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Of course. I cavetaed my initial post by saying there are exceptions. There are always exceptions and a few older heads can help. That's where the judgement comes in.
But in the main, the we need to sign players who see us as a step up...not down. | | | |
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