| Stadium company - future threats 13:54 - May 24 with 5778 views | pioneer |
Its looking like Hornets will be 'relegated' to the lowest level of RL next season - a division that will have all mickey mouse teams from no RL parts of the country but for one other (probably Oldham).
Even with taditional rugby league opponents this year they are struggling on 300 crowds and there seems to be some recognition among their fans that they will not be able to afford playing at Spotland next season.
Aas a sole tenenant/part owner this would probably mean costs would increase considerably (at best the stadium company revenue would be reduced by a fair amount).
Also not sure what it would mean for the Rugby League's ownership of an equal share in the ground.
I hope the board are planning the future with some contingencies in place - or we could be caught with our pants down |  | | |  |
| Stadium company - future threats on 23:39 - May 24 with 1486 views | pl56 |
| Stadium company - future threats on 21:03 - May 24 by SalwaDale |
For me, Rochdale is my team. I wouldn't want to support anyone else (and probably wouldn't if we merged). The thing that gets me is why must football clubs go bust? Why can't they all just come to their senses and start paying players less. I know that is really naive but in the end it is what must happen. If that means that our level is Blue Square North then so be it. Financial realism has to come into play in football very soon, and it is time people accepted that. It is time for the game to return to the people rather than the big business it has become.
Maybe that won't happen but I'll always believe it will. |
Nothing in my post was intended to suggest losing identity , or implying the threat of "giong bust" . All I was advocating was consideration of TS's idea for a ground share plan that just might offer greater potential for maximising income (and therefore minimising the threat of going bust) . My point was , its all very hypothetical at this stage , but not necessarily outside the beyond the parameters of consideration . | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 06:34 - May 25 with 1445 views | SalwaDale |
| Stadium company - future threats on 23:39 - May 24 by pl56 |
Nothing in my post was intended to suggest losing identity , or implying the threat of "giong bust" . All I was advocating was consideration of TS's idea for a ground share plan that just might offer greater potential for maximising income (and therefore minimising the threat of going bust) . My point was , its all very hypothetical at this stage , but not necessarily outside the beyond the parameters of consideration . |
To be honest my reply was probably more of a reply to the whole thread than just your post. Apologies if you thought I was having a go at you.
I do think there are many more ways of being a little creative with our stadium before we ever look into things like a groundshare. I don't know whether or no the club advertises itself for conference facilities. I've been to meetings in the Etihad and the Halliwell Jones stadium recently. I'm sure we could generate some income in the same way. I'm forever hearing about car boot sales in the car park of one local club. I know of a few grounds who do school trips to a ground and use it creatively. I even know of one ground that hosts weddings (on the same day as an important cup game I hasten to add). That same ground alsoo hosts school proms.
I'll be honest, I don't know how many of these things the club do, or how many they would be able to do, or how many other uses for the ground (or part of it) there are. I suspect they must do some.
I do always think that a groundshare is highly unlikely unless you have two teams in the same town/city. If we shared with one of our neighbours either we'd be playing in their town or they'd be playing in ours. |  |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 08:41 - May 25 with 1406 views | dingdangblue |
| Stadium company - future threats on 06:34 - May 25 by SalwaDale |
To be honest my reply was probably more of a reply to the whole thread than just your post. Apologies if you thought I was having a go at you.
I do think there are many more ways of being a little creative with our stadium before we ever look into things like a groundshare. I don't know whether or no the club advertises itself for conference facilities. I've been to meetings in the Etihad and the Halliwell Jones stadium recently. I'm sure we could generate some income in the same way. I'm forever hearing about car boot sales in the car park of one local club. I know of a few grounds who do school trips to a ground and use it creatively. I even know of one ground that hosts weddings (on the same day as an important cup game I hasten to add). That same ground alsoo hosts school proms.
I'll be honest, I don't know how many of these things the club do, or how many they would be able to do, or how many other uses for the ground (or part of it) there are. I suspect they must do some.
I do always think that a groundshare is highly unlikely unless you have two teams in the same town/city. If we shared with one of our neighbours either we'd be playing in their town or they'd be playing in ours. |
Ive been to a lot of functions held in the Ratcliffe suites, it seems like a well run and popular and dare I say profitable venue? - cant have anything to do with the football club then! Seriously though - have the club ever been in a position to own/run/buy this part of the ground? |  |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 09:04 - May 25 with 1395 views | heywooddale |
| Stadium company - future threats on 06:34 - May 25 by SalwaDale |
To be honest my reply was probably more of a reply to the whole thread than just your post. Apologies if you thought I was having a go at you.
I do think there are many more ways of being a little creative with our stadium before we ever look into things like a groundshare. I don't know whether or no the club advertises itself for conference facilities. I've been to meetings in the Etihad and the Halliwell Jones stadium recently. I'm sure we could generate some income in the same way. I'm forever hearing about car boot sales in the car park of one local club. I know of a few grounds who do school trips to a ground and use it creatively. I even know of one ground that hosts weddings (on the same day as an important cup game I hasten to add). That same ground alsoo hosts school proms.
I'll be honest, I don't know how many of these things the club do, or how many they would be able to do, or how many other uses for the ground (or part of it) there are. I suspect they must do some.
I do always think that a groundshare is highly unlikely unless you have two teams in the same town/city. If we shared with one of our neighbours either we'd be playing in their town or they'd be playing in ours. |
I have been to a few meeting that have been held upstairs in the main stand over the past few years so i can confirm that the club do rent this space out during the week to outside organisations. | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 10:50 - May 25 with 1362 views | Doolan_Is_God |
I've often wondered whether teams could share staff costs. If clubs are within 20 miles then it might be possible to share administration staff and groundstaff as well as some coaching, physio, sports-science staff and so on.
There might be an potential for conflicts of interest of course. |  | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 10:58 - May 25 with 1358 views | pl56 |
| Stadium company - future threats on 06:34 - May 25 by SalwaDale |
To be honest my reply was probably more of a reply to the whole thread than just your post. Apologies if you thought I was having a go at you.
I do think there are many more ways of being a little creative with our stadium before we ever look into things like a groundshare. I don't know whether or no the club advertises itself for conference facilities. I've been to meetings in the Etihad and the Halliwell Jones stadium recently. I'm sure we could generate some income in the same way. I'm forever hearing about car boot sales in the car park of one local club. I know of a few grounds who do school trips to a ground and use it creatively. I even know of one ground that hosts weddings (on the same day as an important cup game I hasten to add). That same ground alsoo hosts school proms.
I'll be honest, I don't know how many of these things the club do, or how many they would be able to do, or how many other uses for the ground (or part of it) there are. I suspect they must do some.
I do always think that a groundshare is highly unlikely unless you have two teams in the same town/city. If we shared with one of our neighbours either we'd be playing in their town or they'd be playing in ours. |
Absolutely no offence taken : I think this is a very positive and thought provoking thread from a number of angles . The ideas you suggest for revenue streams are very positive and I too wonder how many are really actively promoted . Other ideas could include , for example a sports injury franchise if one doesn't already exist open 7 days per week ? The advantage a bespoke ground would offer , looking again at the hypothetical , could be all weather football pitches for hire 12 months of the year (I suspect Spotland is a little strapped for space to offer such a facility as a big time money earner ?)
As I say this thread has thrown up a number of ideas , some of which might already be in place , others under marketed , some food for thought in the future ? | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 02:50 - May 26 with 1266 views | bilbobaggins |
| Stadium company - future threats on 22:26 - May 24 by TVOS1907 |
Chesterfield have got plenty of clubs in close proximity as well.
Admittedly not as many and not of the same size as we have, but plenty nonetheless. It's not a million miles from Chesterfield to Manchester, either.
Chesterfield had to move as they couldn't really renovate Saltergate, which was in need of renovation, something Spotland isn't.
Chesterfield also get larger crowds than we do and also have the potential to improve on their support, something else we have struggled with.
They had the need and the potential to make the move a success, as well as the right people in place to carry it out and keep it going.
I doubt a nice shiny new stadium would improve our support that much, although you're right in that it would provide a good venue for non-football-related activities.
As for merging with other clubs, that would be the day I'd be watching Jeff Stelling every week or socialising with roccy.
Anyway, Elton John has appeared live at Spotland - in 1977 to watch Watford! |
it might be a thought but maybe player and managers will have tobe paid less and even be part time doing more than one job i mean whos to say player should not go out into the town handing out leaflets to promote the club on days they not training or even clean the stands and water the pitch |  | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 08:21 - May 26 with 1241 views | 442Dale |
| Stadium company - future threats on 02:50 - May 26 by bilbobaggins |
it might be a thought but maybe player and managers will have tobe paid less and even be part time doing more than one job i mean whos to say player should not go out into the town handing out leaflets to promote the club on days they not training or even clean the stands and water the pitch |
Who's to say? Agents probably.
Gone are the days when players will ever be that closely linked to a club. |  |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 10:13 - May 26 with 1203 views | heywooddale |
| Stadium company - future threats on 02:50 - May 26 by bilbobaggins |
it might be a thought but maybe player and managers will have tobe paid less and even be part time doing more than one job i mean whos to say player should not go out into the town handing out leaflets to promote the club on days they not training or even clean the stands and water the pitch |
That's what Westley apparently had the players doing at Stevenage. Helping out with admin, making school and hospital visits, working 9-5, A full weeks work for their pay. Which i can see working in non-league or at a club like Stevenage who had been doing it at non league.
But see how well it has worked at garnering team spirit at Preston. I can imagine it would be a hard pill for a lot of footballers to swallow. | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 11:08 - May 26 with 1184 views | SuddenLad |
| Stadium company - future threats on 10:13 - May 26 by heywooddale |
That's what Westley apparently had the players doing at Stevenage. Helping out with admin, making school and hospital visits, working 9-5, A full weeks work for their pay. Which i can see working in non-league or at a club like Stevenage who had been doing it at non league.
But see how well it has worked at garnering team spirit at Preston. I can imagine it would be a hard pill for a lot of footballers to swallow. |
Well, I'm sure there will be more of it in the future.
If the 'prima donnas' don't like the idea of helping their employers promote the company for which they work, I'm sure the employers will 'help' them find suitable alternatives. |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Stadium company - future threats on 11:22 - May 26 with 1174 views | Banned4ever |
| Stadium company - future threats on 19:52 - May 24 by D_Dale |
How do clubs survive at the Evo Stik level? Or even at the Conference level - little TV or similar cash, but the cost of running stadiums, travelling to away fixtures etc.
Last season, Gateshead finished 8th with an average home attendance of 843, Braintree were 12th with 896. I doubt either was backed by an oligarch, or even a very rich chairman. Possibly some of the players are part-timers (though my impression is that the likes of Jon Shaw, Gateshead's leading scorer with 32 goals, isn't paid a lot lessthan when he was at Dale). Given some of their away fixtures -Bath, Braintree, Newport - Gateshead must have travelled at least as far as Dale have to.
I don't know the relative economics, but they do suggest Dale can at least keep going for the foreseeable future.
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At the two levels you mention.I would think they would have to pay the crazy cost for policing the ground.
That takes a large chunk out of revenue. | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 19:32 - May 26 with 1121 views | PerthDale |
A very interesting and thought-provoking thread (as someone else said).
I can see the advantage of ground sharing with Oldham, and in that sense the ground is on the wrong side of own. A new-build at Kingsway would be an interesting proposition, particularly if financial help could be obtained, and could give the extra space to provide artificial pitches for hire, etc.
Where the finance would come from, especially in today's financial climate, is anyone's guess. The RFL, presumably, would also be paid off.
My local club, St Johnstone, is in many ways similar to Dale. The main similarity is lack of money - crowds are similar to Dale (yet they still end up in the top six in the SPL - crazy!) - but the owner and board are fanatical about breaking even and not going into unsustainable debt. The stadium is also very similar to Spotland, except McDiarmid Park was newly built on a large greenfield site that a local farmer donated two decades ago - thanks, Mr McDiarmid!
The board seem to wring every last drop of money out of its biggest asset, and some of these examples could apply to Spotland (and may well do already).
Catering facilities - the restaurant is obviously open on matchdays, but also during the week as well; and is aggressively marketed at the business/office worker market. Access is quick from any part of the city, with easy parking, and is of excellent quality, variety and value.
Conference/presentation facilities - I've been to a few presentations/meetings/training courses in my time, and, again, you've got the catering facilities/adequate parking/instant access to the road system. I even attended one training course that was run in the boardroom - great for break times when you could browse through the extensive, bound collection of St J programmes! Also, because of its location on the road network, the facilities are extensively used by representatives from various sales departments - you often see reps coming out of the offices laden with product samples, probably after briefings, etc.
Social club - in the main stand and, crucially, owned by the club (unlike Ratcliffe's, sadly). This is for the use of season ticket holders, especially on matchdays, but is often hired out for work social events, parties, special occasions.
Artificial pitch - this is one advantage that the Saints have over the Dale. With having the space when the stadium was built, an artificial pitch was essential, not just for training out to all and sundry - local amateur teams, works sides, hockey, etc. It is rarely out of use during waking hours.
Car Boot sales - (someone mentioned these) never a Sunday goes by without a large boot sale being put on. Again, direct access to east-central Scotland's road network helps here, although Spotland isn't too far away from the motorway system. Are there any planning restrictions that affect Spotland that prevents this type of commercial event regularly taking place?
Concerts - mention of Elton John reminds me that he played at the Saints ground and that the crowd he attracted that day is still the attendance record for the stadium! (I also witnessed EJ at Spotland, sat in the director's box, platform-shoed-feet on the seat in front, bright yellow shirt and even brighter red trousers on). Again, there might be restrictions on Spotland in regard to what can be put on there because of its location in a densely populated area, but then McDiarmid Park is fairly near housing.
Funerals! - McD Park is right next to the Crematorium, and is, in fact, linked directly by what was an old, but good quality and well-maintained farm track. The mourners go into the crem for the service and then, instead of trying to turn right onto a very busy arterial road, nip through the short cut straight into the stadium carpark. The club then provide top quality catering facilities for the funeral party, a service they have marketed well through their partners, the local funeral directors. The council attempted to block this route, but the combined power of the club, its fans and the funeral directors made them back down! I trust that the Dale provide a similar service given its proximity to the cemetery/crematorium? If not then they should certainly think about it.
Road facilities - the last thing I can think of is an addition to the Western Bypass ring road system. Although built on a 'tattie' farm, the stadium is being engulfed by the rapid growth of the city. The bypass was the absolute limit to development at one time, but that has been breached and there are now plans for massive housing development in the vicinity. This will mean additional slip roads onto the bypass and the ideal route would seem to go straight through the away stand. The ex-chairman/main shareholder (his son has taking over the job) has offered to sell that portion of land for the road in exchange for a rebuilt (smaller) spectator facility that incorporates private boxes as well as seats. On the family's past record, the club will probably come out best!
There are many ways a club can utilise its assets, but it does need a bit of commercial nous from those at the top. Geoff Brown, a local builder - successful, but no corporate giant of the house-building sector - was the chairman for over 20 years and retired quite recently. Although a builder of houses, he did have an exceptional eye for an opportunity that would help support his club, knew how to build relationships with his 'contacts' (you have to have this ability to obtain planning permissions), and aggressively pursued an idea once he had committed to it.
I don't know much about the Dale directors, except that they seem to love their club, but someone with similar abilities on the board would certainly help wring out every last drop of income out of the club's assets. | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 19:48 - May 26 with 1105 views | 442Dale |
Very interesting post, PerthDale. It should be required reading for everyone at Spotland.
Shame this messageboard isn't seen as the valuable marketing/information source it so clearly is. | |
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| Stadium company - future threats on 20:18 - May 26 with 1094 views | PerthDale |
| Stadium company - future threats on 16:48 - May 24 by pioneer |
The league position is problematic given the reoganisation of the RFL below super league nest season. The top four from Hornets current division will be 'promoted' to an expanded championship division. The rest will be left in championship one with expansion teams (currently Northampton, a completely new club, Hemel Hempstead, and some others to be nominated by RFL). Given Hornets are outside the top 4 and stuggling to keep within catching distance, and are losing to even the poorer teams in their division, it looks like they will be one of two traditional (northern) teams to miss out on 'promotion'. As it stands the new bottom division would be Horents, Oldham and a bunch of make believe teams from Wales (North and South subbject to any future relocations) London, Gateshead, Hemel Hampstead, South London and Northampton (others to be added). Few of these teams bring substantial away following and few Rochdale folk show interest in watching games against these mickey mouse teams.
So a mid table position is potentially disasterous.
Yes the board scraped the finanical barrel to meet the coaches request to stay ovenight in south wales. The coach is also a non-elected member of the board so I suppose you could say he was wearing (at least) two hats. But I suspect he has little interest in the long term sustainability of the team. He has significant media interests and other positions in rugby league coaching as well as any employment he may have outside of the game. So his interests are short term and immediate (anything that might help him get a result in south wales) while the Board's main interest would seem to be long term survival.
It would be good to know what the financial impact would be on the stadium company of Hornets not playing at Spotland, boith in terms of changes in revenues, costs and the distribution of responsibility for costs. As a sole tennant it would seem on the face of it that we would be responsible for the entire costs of the stadium, unless the stadium company was to run at a loss. |
I really fear for Hornets and Oldham if they remain in the new Championship 1. While I think admitting the four new clubs, along with the current 'expansion' clubs is a great idea, the division could be disastrous for any heartland clubs. More clubs in developing areas in the midlands and the south are needed for the talent that is being nurtured there, but more thought could have been given to the likes of Hornets. The burden of expanding the game is being placed mainly on the RFL's weakest clubs. How on earth Hornets are expected to travel to Neath, Hemel, Northampton, Gloucestershire, Tottenham and Coventry/or Oxford, and remain viable is anyone's guess (although I think travel is going to be funded, I'm sure extra costs will occur - like accommodation!). I think we all know that they will struggle to attract adequate gates against these teams, although on-the-field success may be an attraction.
I'm not sure the description of the 'southern' teams as 'make-believe' or 'mickey mouse' is entirely fair. Hemel are a strong and solid community club, with their own ground, clubhouse and (soon-to-be-built) grandstand, and have been waiting for years for planning permission so they can make the step-up. London Skolars are a well-financed and established club - just not very good (in common with other teams down there they just can't compete with even 'down at heel' heartland clubs of a similar status. South Wales are doing a great job in providing local players with opportunities to play at semi-pro level, and North Wales seem to have a secure location at the university owned Racecourse.
Gloucestershire seem a really innovative project, backed by the university, and, again will provide playing opportunities that would not be available to lads from that area. The backup from the uni - in terms of sports science, facilities, marketing, admin, physiotherapy, etc - should be invaluable at this level.
Coventry have long been run as a 'professional' club, even if their players are unpaid, and have access to a great stadium at this level. The club has a youth development programme and the city has five other clubs (if you include nearby Leamington) - how many does the Rochdale district have these days?
Not sure about the Oxford bid, and the Northampton club is based upon the football club (hasn't had a good history, that type of expansion club), but these are solid, seemingly well thought out, and definitely long overdue, attempts at expanding the game. Potentially disastrous for any 'heartland' clubs left adrift there, though. | | | |
| Stadium company - future threats on 22:09 - May 26 with 1064 views | pl56 |
| Stadium company - future threats on 19:32 - May 26 by PerthDale |
A very interesting and thought-provoking thread (as someone else said).
I can see the advantage of ground sharing with Oldham, and in that sense the ground is on the wrong side of own. A new-build at Kingsway would be an interesting proposition, particularly if financial help could be obtained, and could give the extra space to provide artificial pitches for hire, etc.
Where the finance would come from, especially in today's financial climate, is anyone's guess. The RFL, presumably, would also be paid off.
My local club, St Johnstone, is in many ways similar to Dale. The main similarity is lack of money - crowds are similar to Dale (yet they still end up in the top six in the SPL - crazy!) - but the owner and board are fanatical about breaking even and not going into unsustainable debt. The stadium is also very similar to Spotland, except McDiarmid Park was newly built on a large greenfield site that a local farmer donated two decades ago - thanks, Mr McDiarmid!
The board seem to wring every last drop of money out of its biggest asset, and some of these examples could apply to Spotland (and may well do already).
Catering facilities - the restaurant is obviously open on matchdays, but also during the week as well; and is aggressively marketed at the business/office worker market. Access is quick from any part of the city, with easy parking, and is of excellent quality, variety and value.
Conference/presentation facilities - I've been to a few presentations/meetings/training courses in my time, and, again, you've got the catering facilities/adequate parking/instant access to the road system. I even attended one training course that was run in the boardroom - great for break times when you could browse through the extensive, bound collection of St J programmes! Also, because of its location on the road network, the facilities are extensively used by representatives from various sales departments - you often see reps coming out of the offices laden with product samples, probably after briefings, etc.
Social club - in the main stand and, crucially, owned by the club (unlike Ratcliffe's, sadly). This is for the use of season ticket holders, especially on matchdays, but is often hired out for work social events, parties, special occasions.
Artificial pitch - this is one advantage that the Saints have over the Dale. With having the space when the stadium was built, an artificial pitch was essential, not just for training out to all and sundry - local amateur teams, works sides, hockey, etc. It is rarely out of use during waking hours.
Car Boot sales - (someone mentioned these) never a Sunday goes by without a large boot sale being put on. Again, direct access to east-central Scotland's road network helps here, although Spotland isn't too far away from the motorway system. Are there any planning restrictions that affect Spotland that prevents this type of commercial event regularly taking place?
Concerts - mention of Elton John reminds me that he played at the Saints ground and that the crowd he attracted that day is still the attendance record for the stadium! (I also witnessed EJ at Spotland, sat in the director's box, platform-shoed-feet on the seat in front, bright yellow shirt and even brighter red trousers on). Again, there might be restrictions on Spotland in regard to what can be put on there because of its location in a densely populated area, but then McDiarmid Park is fairly near housing.
Funerals! - McD Park is right next to the Crematorium, and is, in fact, linked directly by what was an old, but good quality and well-maintained farm track. The mourners go into the crem for the service and then, instead of trying to turn right onto a very busy arterial road, nip through the short cut straight into the stadium carpark. The club then provide top quality catering facilities for the funeral party, a service they have marketed well through their partners, the local funeral directors. The council attempted to block this route, but the combined power of the club, its fans and the funeral directors made them back down! I trust that the Dale provide a similar service given its proximity to the cemetery/crematorium? If not then they should certainly think about it.
Road facilities - the last thing I can think of is an addition to the Western Bypass ring road system. Although built on a 'tattie' farm, the stadium is being engulfed by the rapid growth of the city. The bypass was the absolute limit to development at one time, but that has been breached and there are now plans for massive housing development in the vicinity. This will mean additional slip roads onto the bypass and the ideal route would seem to go straight through the away stand. The ex-chairman/main shareholder (his son has taking over the job) has offered to sell that portion of land for the road in exchange for a rebuilt (smaller) spectator facility that incorporates private boxes as well as seats. On the family's past record, the club will probably come out best!
There are many ways a club can utilise its assets, but it does need a bit of commercial nous from those at the top. Geoff Brown, a local builder - successful, but no corporate giant of the house-building sector - was the chairman for over 20 years and retired quite recently. Although a builder of houses, he did have an exceptional eye for an opportunity that would help support his club, knew how to build relationships with his 'contacts' (you have to have this ability to obtain planning permissions), and aggressively pursued an idea once he had committed to it.
I don't know much about the Dale directors, except that they seem to love their club, but someone with similar abilities on the board would certainly help wring out every last drop of income out of the club's assets. |
What a superb post ; sums up exactly what I was trying to say about potential benefits of a bespoke stadium ..... but so much better ! | | | |
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