| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin 22:42 - Oct 27 with 6054 views | AndyCole |
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This is the question, right now. All Concept and no real substance ? One of the hottest topics in the corridors of power.
The ayes have it, I say. All concept and no real, proper substance.
Martin's brand shouts all Concept, and no Reality. He's like an interior Designer positioning partitions, shaping style, colour swatches and cushions. Whereas in reality the senior players, the Chief Architects for making things happen on the pitch, as we build and find a way of winning with Plan B, deliver as best as they can - despite, not because of the flamboyant Design Concepts (Plan A).
So far in his managerial career Martin is clearly all Concept with mediocre results. The harsh Reality right now is all about winning. Flamboyant design concepts need to be consigned to the managerial filing cabinet, under M for....Martin, mediocre. 16th in the table, unheard of, in yonks.
The investors are all about a winning Reality, not Conceptual design. There's much at stake, especially right now.
It's time to deliver Reality with a proper Plan B, where Designer, Chief Architects and the entire team are fully aligned and delivering.
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 12:31 - Oct 28 with 854 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 12:12 - Oct 28 by onehunglow |
Morning AC.
Yep,that' all it is.
I cannot figure out the comments aimed at those not following Russy speak.
We have seen unbelievable dross posted .It needs to stop.
Opinion are not "negative" or "positive" and folk need to remember that becaue if one believes in the text of a post then it is "positive".If a post is not seen that way,then it is seen as "negative" and thus worthy of approbation in some way. |
Martin has a strong football philosophy like Brendan Rodgers did. Martin's points per game ratio that the Doc bangs on about are not great but then again Brendan Rodger's numbers were not great in 2008-2010 after poor spells at Reading and Watford.
Our great former Chairman Mr Jenkins (a failed roofer to some fans) got word of his talent and using his judgement looked a little deeper that the underlying figures and put his reputation on Brendan. A superb appointment. It remains to be seen if Martin can match Brendan. He appears at least to be cut from the same cloth.
Even Brendan teams were roughed up in the Championship. I recall Ashley William's own goal v Derby. The high energy spoilers tend to run out of gas over a season. Barnsley were easy meat at the end of the season for Coopers Swansea. [Post edited 28 Oct 2021 13:06]
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 12:58 - Oct 28 with 836 views | Badlands |
Your anti-Martin diatribe is based on metaphysical discussion which also argues that reality does not exist.
A concept has no physical presence nor does 'reality' which is subjective. Philosophers from Pythagorus and Parmenides to Cantwell Smith have struggled with this strand of ontology for millennia.
But hey-ho. |  |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 12:59 - Oct 28 with 834 views | Boundy |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 09:37 - Oct 28 by nantywatcher |
I'd love to be a Martin fan, but why should I? The blind faith that you and others have for a man with no real track record is way beyond my understanding. And to think we were told we would be more entertaining turns out to be utter nonsense. Still whatever happens it looks like he's got a job for life, maybe a bit of pressure in his working life might improve our performances? |
I've been mightily entertained since Martin's taken over , last season not so , if fact even though I could watch all games home and away there were some I couldn't be bothered with , which is a sad reflection of how boring we were under Cooper .But never mind losing play off finalists must count for something | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 13:10 - Oct 28 with 815 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 12:59 - Oct 28 by Boundy |
I've been mightily entertained since Martin's taken over , last season not so , if fact even though I could watch all games home and away there were some I couldn't be bothered with , which is a sad reflection of how boring we were under Cooper .But never mind losing play off finalists must count for something |
Cooper was unlucky in respect of the absence of fans. All the play off games 2 semi finals and the finals would have generated around £5m extra funding in simple ticket sales. Perhaps another £2m in positional awards off the league. This would have almost covered Ayew's wages. He more than anyone got Swansea to the play offs. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 13:21 - Oct 28 with 803 views | magicdaps10 |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 13:10 - Oct 28 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Cooper was unlucky in respect of the absence of fans. All the play off games 2 semi finals and the finals would have generated around £5m extra funding in simple ticket sales. Perhaps another £2m in positional awards off the league. This would have almost covered Ayew's wages. He more than anyone got Swansea to the play offs. |
I think not having fans in the stadium was a good thing for Cooper. 15k watching what was being served up would have let him know and in doing so would have got through to the players on the pitch... Not saying that it's right but I could fully understand it at the same time.
Back to the reality of brand Martin as its been labelled, I am fully backing of it and see it as something that is putting us on the right path again, Wether Martin can see the end game through or be it a foundation set for another manager to come in and take it in.... I think the club are making the correct choice and the work going on behind the scenes to get an end result should be applauded and supported. |  |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:08 - Oct 28 with 782 views | onehunglow |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 12:58 - Oct 28 by Badlands |
Your anti-Martin diatribe is based on metaphysical discussion which also argues that reality does not exist.
A concept has no physical presence nor does 'reality' which is subjective. Philosophers from Pythagorus and Parmenides to Cantwell Smith have struggled with this strand of ontology for millennia.
But hey-ho. |
It's not anti Martin and it' s not diatribe. That is your preception.
All opinions | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:08 - Oct 28 with 789 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 09:53 - Oct 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
Spending and success is directly linked, whether fans accept it or not.
This squad has improved on last years as a result.
Would I swap Piroe, Downes, Ntcham, Williams, Patterson, Laird, Obafemi, Walsh and Jospeh..... for Ayew, Roberts, Lowe and Guehi?
Not in a million years. |
Ayew and Lowe who scored over 30 between them, one on about £3.5 per million year salary, scored goals in the top flight of England, France.
Guehi who has been one of Palace's best performers, who Chelsea have put a buy back clause on as they believe he will be a top four player with experience, I'd agree. Roberts welsh international with proven quality at this level and goals, as well as creating more chances than anyone apart from Buendia in the Championship last year I believe.
But Piroe who even you had said has had a poor record wherever he has gone and still a pup, Downes played no higher than league one and was getting splinters all of last season, Ntcham had pedigree but struggles with injuries, same with Obafemi no gametime which explains Ntcham performances saturday Imo, Laird nowhere near an upgrade on Roberts at this stage of his careet, Walsh we wont see and Joseph similar as he is at Cheltenham.
The starting XI is nowhere near as strong on paper, we have more numbers but it doesn't substitute for the quality you listed that we have lost. [Post edited 28 Oct 2021 14:09]
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:21 - Oct 28 with 781 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:08 - Oct 28 by 34dfgdf54 |
Ayew and Lowe who scored over 30 between them, one on about £3.5 per million year salary, scored goals in the top flight of England, France.
Guehi who has been one of Palace's best performers, who Chelsea have put a buy back clause on as they believe he will be a top four player with experience, I'd agree. Roberts welsh international with proven quality at this level and goals, as well as creating more chances than anyone apart from Buendia in the Championship last year I believe.
But Piroe who even you had said has had a poor record wherever he has gone and still a pup, Downes played no higher than league one and was getting splinters all of last season, Ntcham had pedigree but struggles with injuries, same with Obafemi no gametime which explains Ntcham performances saturday Imo, Laird nowhere near an upgrade on Roberts at this stage of his careet, Walsh we wont see and Joseph similar as he is at Cheltenham.
The starting XI is nowhere near as strong on paper, we have more numbers but it doesn't substitute for the quality you listed that we have lost. [Post edited 28 Oct 2021 14:09]
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Ayew plays in the Middle East and in his 30’s, Guehi was on loan and Lowe rarely gets a game in this league. Roberts is a fair loss.
I can’t think of too many people that would take them back on the proviso we hand back Piroe, Patterson, Ntcham, Laird, Williams, Downes, Joseph and Obafemi.
We are a stronger team this year both on paper and on grass. |  |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:25 - Oct 28 with 778 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 11:54 - Oct 28 by magicdaps10 |
Well that is interesting. Its a regular conversation with my staff about the Swans and we all have varying views but we all tend to agree that this seasons squad is not as strong as last seasons AND that this season is a mid table season all going well.
Its an interesting thing how people see things, since the final whistle went in the play off final, I from that point accepted whomever was in charge was going to have a season of transition and that's my reality of the situation. |
So you would swap Patterson, Ntcham, Downes, Laird, Obafemi, Piroe and Joseph for Ayew to come back, loan Guehi for one more year and Roberts and Lowe to come back?
I couldn’t think of a much worse deal to be perfectly honest.
I can’t think of many that would take that, and there would be serious questions raised if we ever did do a deal like that. Our fans would quite rightly be up in arms and I’m sure many of those claiming otherwise now would be at the very front of the line.
As you know, I don’t believe in “seasons of transition”. Every season is a transition season from the one before for a variety of reasons, new manager, new players, new style - there are changes every year.
No need to throw away a season just because there is a change. You should still be able to play to the teams potential.
[Post edited 28 Oct 2021 14:29]
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:33 - Oct 28 with 765 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:25 - Oct 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
So you would swap Patterson, Ntcham, Downes, Laird, Obafemi, Piroe and Joseph for Ayew to come back, loan Guehi for one more year and Roberts and Lowe to come back?
I couldn’t think of a much worse deal to be perfectly honest.
I can’t think of many that would take that, and there would be serious questions raised if we ever did do a deal like that. Our fans would quite rightly be up in arms and I’m sure many of those claiming otherwise now would be at the very front of the line.
As you know, I don’t believe in “seasons of transition”. Every season is a transition season from the one before for a variety of reasons, new manager, new players, new style - there are changes every year.
No need to throw away a season just because there is a change. You should still be able to play to the teams potential.
[Post edited 28 Oct 2021 14:29]
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Every single player you have mentioned there are not tried and tested at this level. Patterson you could argue but he was unemployed before we took him on a free. As Martin said, he has been waiting all his career to play in a system like this and the way we play.
Ntcham I believe could be outstanding if he consistently plays but keeping him fit is the problem, the same with Obafemi in terms of fitness. Ayew was a beast at this level, managers said it last year, £3.5 per annum striker, that in itself is crazy spending at this level.
Starting XI on paper last year was better. | | | |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:42 - Oct 28 with 760 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:33 - Oct 28 by 34dfgdf54 |
Every single player you have mentioned there are not tried and tested at this level. Patterson you could argue but he was unemployed before we took him on a free. As Martin said, he has been waiting all his career to play in a system like this and the way we play.
Ntcham I believe could be outstanding if he consistently plays but keeping him fit is the problem, the same with Obafemi in terms of fitness. Ayew was a beast at this level, managers said it last year, £3.5 per annum striker, that in itself is crazy spending at this level.
Starting XI on paper last year was better. |
They are, they play here and we see them week in week out at this level.
If we were having this conversation in pre season, you may well have a point. But we aren’t.
We both had concerns about Piroe due to his record previously for one such example. I would hope neither of us have those same fears now as he is quite clearly the best striker we have had for a very long time.
All those players mentioned (Williams and Joseph aside) I am more than happy that they are good enough to be playing in the top echelons of this league.
Ayew was not a striker he was a forward, a good player without question but his salary was a legacy salary, one we couldn’t shift from the high spending Premier League days.
A bit like claiming Routledge was a 1.5m salary player or whatever he was. He WAS worth that at one point, but not anymore and certainly wasn’t worth that last season, simply a legacy contract.
I would say with some degree of certainly Piroe scores more this season than Ayew did last season or the season before.
Again we are better this year both on paper and on grass. And someone would have to be smoking copious amounts of the latter to want to swap what we lost last season in exchange for what we gained this season. [Post edited 28 Oct 2021 14:44]
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:51 - Oct 28 with 747 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Happy to keep the stats updated, seems to be a theme on every thread now, we have loads going.
Ayew after 14 games of season 1: 4
Ayew after 14 games of season 2: 6
Piroe after 14 games of season 3: 8
Not to mention we were a team with a higher frequency of attacks in both Cooper seasons. But happy to discount that and judge them the same. [Post edited 28 Oct 2021 15:05]
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:56 - Oct 28 with 742 views | Boundy |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 13:21 - Oct 28 by magicdaps10 |
I think not having fans in the stadium was a good thing for Cooper. 15k watching what was being served up would have let him know and in doing so would have got through to the players on the pitch... Not saying that it's right but I could fully understand it at the same time.
Back to the reality of brand Martin as its been labelled, I am fully backing of it and see it as something that is putting us on the right path again, Wether Martin can see the end game through or be it a foundation set for another manager to come in and take it in.... I think the club are making the correct choice and the work going on behind the scenes to get an end result should be applauded and supported. |
Your second paragraph makes perfect sense , everyone in the main refers back to Roberto being the architect for our raise , myself Flynn should be recognised for that accolade. The point being from then everyone up to Monk was an improvement on the previous manager and since Monk in terms of style we've been fire fighting as a Club . Russell isn't the Messiah but he could be the one to restart our way forward playing the way the majority of supporters want to see IMO | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 15:03 - Oct 28 with 734 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:56 - Oct 28 by Boundy |
Your second paragraph makes perfect sense , everyone in the main refers back to Roberto being the architect for our raise , myself Flynn should be recognised for that accolade. The point being from then everyone up to Monk was an improvement on the previous manager and since Monk in terms of style we've been fire fighting as a Club . Russell isn't the Messiah but he could be the one to restart our way forward playing the way the majority of supporters want to see IMO |
Could be, depends how he goes about it.
He needs to certainly move away from what he came here doing, it’s not really worked anywhere he’s been with it and most certainly didn’t here.
When he moves away from it, things tend to improve rapidly.
If he can strike that balance then he may well be the manager to bring an attractive style back. But every manager that has played this style has done it in order to be successful not just for the sake of it, and delivered that success.
Martinez, Sousa, Rodgers and anyone else associated with our rise changed the philosophy and did it quickly and successfully.
Martin if he is to walk in their footsteps will also need to be successful, I’m afraid lower half in the table but keeping the ball more then anyone will wear thin very quickly even for the most avid Martin fan, I assure you of that. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 15:11 - Oct 28 with 719 views | onehunglow |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 15:03 - Oct 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
Could be, depends how he goes about it.
He needs to certainly move away from what he came here doing, it’s not really worked anywhere he’s been with it and most certainly didn’t here.
When he moves away from it, things tend to improve rapidly.
If he can strike that balance then he may well be the manager to bring an attractive style back. But every manager that has played this style has done it in order to be successful not just for the sake of it, and delivered that success.
Martinez, Sousa, Rodgers and anyone else associated with our rise changed the philosophy and did it quickly and successfully.
Martin if he is to walk in their footsteps will also need to be successful, I’m afraid lower half in the table but keeping the ball more then anyone will wear thin very quickly even for the most avid Martin fan, I assure you of that. |
What you seem to be saying is that Martin will need to show results eventually .There has to be a time when he is analysed. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 15:26 - Oct 28 with 693 views | Whiterockin |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 15:11 - Oct 28 by onehunglow |
What you seem to be saying is that Martin will need to show results eventually .There has to be a time when he is analysed. |
Agreed.
On leaving the stadium after every game this season including the 0-0s the supporters have been very supportive and complimentary of the team and manager. But I think tomorrow could be a turning point if we lose. As I have said on the matchday thread. We have had a full week between matches and virtually no injury issues or suspensions to worry us, there really should be no excuses. Martin has had long enough to put his ideas across and get his squad fit and settled. We are not playing one of the top sides and supporters realise this if we were to lose Saturday questions should be rightly asked. |  | | |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 15:29 - Oct 28 with 683 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 15:11 - Oct 28 by onehunglow |
What you seem to be saying is that Martin will need to show results eventually .There has to be a time when he is analysed. |
For me that is now.
As soon as he was able to get the team playing to a level we want (Cardiff and WBA) then there is no reason we can’t expect that to be the norm.
Of course we won’t turn up at every game and there will be bumps along the way. But there isn’t any reason why that level can’t be our “usual” level, now we have shown it multiple times.
This side is most certainly a top 10 side. I understand we have had a bad start, but going forward, I now expect top 10 form and think I’m perfectly justified to do so.
Top 10 is around the 65-70 point mark and we are hitting that kind of form over the last 5 or 6 games so I don’t have too many complaints as it stands, providing we don’t go back to how we were. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 16:20 - Oct 28 with 649 views | AndyCole |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 13:21 - Oct 28 by magicdaps10 |
I think not having fans in the stadium was a good thing for Cooper. 15k watching what was being served up would have let him know and in doing so would have got through to the players on the pitch... Not saying that it's right but I could fully understand it at the same time.
Back to the reality of brand Martin as its been labelled, I am fully backing of it and see it as something that is putting us on the right path again, Wether Martin can see the end game through or be it a foundation set for another manager to come in and take it in.... I think the club are making the correct choice and the work going on behind the scenes to get an end result should be applauded and supported. |
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You're right Daps. And we all want to see us succeed in this way.
The thrust of this thread is to see what Martin and the wider leadership team should do better - to deliver the collective vision. It just doesn't make much sense for fans to simply say: In Martin we trust......
He has already morphed us into a Plan B which is commendable. Sticking to that Plan with the likes of Grimes, Bennett, Paterson in the spine is vital to ensure we don't stray. If we can rediscover the winning Edge we had last two terms, where our inner belief, resolve and bouncebackability was outstanding, we could be both attractive on the eye and winning games consistently.
btw - What work is going behind the scenes you mention ?
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| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 16:35 - Oct 28 with 632 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 09:46 - Oct 28 by magicdaps10 |
As I said, 3 months in and all that he has faced is something that needs to be taken on board.
I have supported the club long enough to realise the difficulties we have to deal and Martin being 3 months in as a job on his hands. Am I happy where we are taking all into consideration? Yes I am. Would I like to be further up the table? Yes, course I would be.
The answer to my second question would be more to reality but I would certainly want it but realise and accept why we are not. |
3 Months and 14 games and he still hasn't figured out that playing players out of position and therefore out of their comfort zones is not the way to get the best football out of them.
He also seems to be unable to grasp the concept of having tall strong defenders defending against tall strong attackers and fast defenders defending against fast attackers. | | | |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 16:50 - Oct 28 with 618 views | onehunglow |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 16:35 - Oct 28 by A_Fans_Dad |
3 Months and 14 games and he still hasn't figured out that playing players out of position and therefore out of their comfort zones is not the way to get the best football out of them.
He also seems to be unable to grasp the concept of having tall strong defenders defending against tall strong attackers and fast defenders defending against fast attackers. |
But it means the great Kyle Naughton gets to play it out from the back.
Sorry but to me we have the core of three decent centre backs and they do not included Kyle who is not one.
Get players comfortable and they ll come good.
We are nowhere near where we should be after three months work. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 16:53 - Oct 28 with 621 views | Boundy |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 16:35 - Oct 28 by A_Fans_Dad |
3 Months and 14 games and he still hasn't figured out that playing players out of position and therefore out of their comfort zones is not the way to get the best football out of them.
He also seems to be unable to grasp the concept of having tall strong defenders defending against tall strong attackers and fast defenders defending against fast attackers. |
That way it appears we should be more concerned about the opposition rather than them worrying about our ability to attack . | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 17:07 - Oct 28 with 603 views | onehunglow |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 16:53 - Oct 28 by Boundy |
That way it appears we should be more concerned about the opposition rather than them worrying about our ability to attack . |
Better debates today which is better.
We might have crossed the Rubicon as regards exchanging views but it won’t last.
Get it tight at the back and it will flow
Hamer has been and is excellent and we should allow him to distribute from the back.
No need for Naughton specifically for that role ..
Bennett Cabango and Rw have height .Rhys needs to be given his chance to shine . | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:12 - Oct 28 with 577 views | Catullus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:08 - Oct 28 by 34dfgdf54 |
Ayew and Lowe who scored over 30 between them, one on about £3.5 per million year salary, scored goals in the top flight of England, France.
Guehi who has been one of Palace's best performers, who Chelsea have put a buy back clause on as they believe he will be a top four player with experience, I'd agree. Roberts welsh international with proven quality at this level and goals, as well as creating more chances than anyone apart from Buendia in the Championship last year I believe.
But Piroe who even you had said has had a poor record wherever he has gone and still a pup, Downes played no higher than league one and was getting splinters all of last season, Ntcham had pedigree but struggles with injuries, same with Obafemi no gametime which explains Ntcham performances saturday Imo, Laird nowhere near an upgrade on Roberts at this stage of his careet, Walsh we wont see and Joseph similar as he is at Cheltenham.
The starting XI is nowhere near as strong on paper, we have more numbers but it doesn't substitute for the quality you listed that we have lost. [Post edited 28 Oct 2021 14:09]
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The reality is Martin is our manager now, we have 9 new players and we should be fair to them all, until they don't deserve it anymore they should get our full support.
Of course some disagree about how long they deserve and some appear to be lining up reasons now to be able to criticise martin later in the season.
Take the transfers thing, we spent 3.5 million just on one player in 2011. A similar amount on 9 players is hardly a massive spend, specially in pandemic days when hardly anybody is spending much. In normal times our 3 million net spend would be considered paltry. In these days though it shows us in a position of relative strength.
Most of us see this as a transition season and are happy to be patient, some see it differently for whatever reason.
The reality is, we are where we are, Martin is coaching the team and we all hope to see improvements (which there have obviously been so far) and we hope to move up the table. We don't have an entitlement to do that though. some posters behave as if we should be nailed on for a promotion shot when that is clearly not true. We had early season hurdles to get over first which some posters don't want to allow for. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:25 - Oct 28 with 563 views | Whiterockin |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:12 - Oct 28 by Catullus |
The reality is Martin is our manager now, we have 9 new players and we should be fair to them all, until they don't deserve it anymore they should get our full support.
Of course some disagree about how long they deserve and some appear to be lining up reasons now to be able to criticise martin later in the season.
Take the transfers thing, we spent 3.5 million just on one player in 2011. A similar amount on 9 players is hardly a massive spend, specially in pandemic days when hardly anybody is spending much. In normal times our 3 million net spend would be considered paltry. In these days though it shows us in a position of relative strength.
Most of us see this as a transition season and are happy to be patient, some see it differently for whatever reason.
The reality is, we are where we are, Martin is coaching the team and we all hope to see improvements (which there have obviously been so far) and we hope to move up the table. We don't have an entitlement to do that though. some posters behave as if we should be nailed on for a promotion shot when that is clearly not true. We had early season hurdles to get over first which some posters don't want to allow for. |
I have always said that we should give Martin time, but the Cardiff and WBA performance/results show what we can do. Now we need to do it on a regular basis. | | | |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:40 - Oct 28 with 549 views | onehunglow |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:25 - Oct 28 by Whiterockin |
I have always said that we should give Martin time, but the Cardiff and WBA performance/results show what we can do. Now we need to do it on a regular basis. |
Fair comment. | |
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