| New shares 19:46 - Mar 7 with 32742 views | TTNYear |
Apparently new/more shares are being issued from the club... this needs discussing. |  |
| Anti-cliquism is the last refuge of the messageboard scoundrel - Copyright Dorset Dale productions |
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| New shares on 19:12 - Mar 11 with 2194 views | tony_roch975 |
| New shares on 17:05 - Mar 11 by VivaDonaldo |
I can appreciate some people showing caution, particularly with recent examples down the road.
But I believe we're a very different prospect and project to what they were when SD1 took over.
Time will tell, but the board would have to collectively agree that the new investor, investment, price being paid and amount of shares being sold all fitted with their vision for the club.
Suppose it comes down to a question of trust in their decision making and I understand that elements of the fanbase have trouble giving that to them.
I'm generally quite a positive person and from what I've seen from the board, in their capacity of their positions at the club, I'm happy to follow their lead. |
and that's the debate in a nutshell - 'let's just keep going as we are' option (sadly I suspect my grandson won't have any lower league football to attend in 25 years); you think it’s about the evil Board and pecuniary interests; you don't think the risk is worth it so you accept a future of continual cuts in expenditure leading to a semi-pro existence in the Northwest Alliance but retaining the 'ethos' of Dale or you take the risk and go for a big investment and hope we're travelling the Bournemouth road not the Bury one. All fans need to decide where they want the Trust to jump? |  |
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| New shares on 19:18 - Mar 11 with 2180 views | pioneer |
| New shares on 15:34 - Mar 11 by VivaDonaldo |
I would guess because the intention behind this whole exercise is to create room for a new investor of the size required to make big changes, not just to offer the spare cap to existing shareholders.
Once passed this would give the clubs board greater autonomy in negotiations with these third parties. Rather than have to wait to see what shareholding is taken by existing shareholders first and then seeing what room is left for the new investor? [Post edited 11 Mar 2020 15:37]
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Whats Tommy Cannon doing these days? | | | |
| New shares on 19:28 - Mar 11 with 2151 views | D_Alien |
| New shares on 19:12 - Mar 11 by tony_roch975 |
and that's the debate in a nutshell - 'let's just keep going as we are' option (sadly I suspect my grandson won't have any lower league football to attend in 25 years); you think it’s about the evil Board and pecuniary interests; you don't think the risk is worth it so you accept a future of continual cuts in expenditure leading to a semi-pro existence in the Northwest Alliance but retaining the 'ethos' of Dale or you take the risk and go for a big investment and hope we're travelling the Bournemouth road not the Bury one. All fans need to decide where they want the Trust to jump? |
I can remember my dad proclaiming in similar vein to yourself, c. 1975 "They'll have built houses on Spotland by the end of the century"
Debate in a nutshell? Hardly; there are far more routes to take than the one being proposed, which is nothing like the Bournemouth road |  |
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| New shares on 19:42 - Mar 11 with 2109 views | 442Dale |
| New shares on 19:28 - Mar 11 by D_Alien |
I can remember my dad proclaiming in similar vein to yourself, c. 1975 "They'll have built houses on Spotland by the end of the century"
Debate in a nutshell? Hardly; there are far more routes to take than the one being proposed, which is nothing like the Bournemouth road |
Totally agree. The debate around investment and different types would be a long and complex one. That anyone should think that it’s a simple choice between two futures for fans/shareholders/Trust to take, then unfortunately the point will be missed spectacularly and the likelihood of seeing all those shares become available is a likely scenario.
For anyone who has paid attention throughout, there are enough messages down the years that would apply now. They’re all there. |  |
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| New shares on 19:45 - Mar 11 with 2097 views | tony_roch975 |
| New shares on 19:28 - Mar 11 by D_Alien |
I can remember my dad proclaiming in similar vein to yourself, c. 1975 "They'll have built houses on Spotland by the end of the century"
Debate in a nutshell? Hardly; there are far more routes to take than the one being proposed, which is nothing like the Bournemouth road |
I mentioned at least 3 routes (not just the 1 the Board are proposing) - please share any others. Or do we infer that you're a glass half empty person? (to continue the Daley_Lama/ VivaDonaldo metaphor)
ps - your dad was only 25 yards out and this century isn't done | |
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| New shares on 20:33 - Mar 11 with 2031 views | D_Alien |
| New shares on 19:45 - Mar 11 by tony_roch975 |
I mentioned at least 3 routes (not just the 1 the Board are proposing) - please share any others. Or do we infer that you're a glass half empty person? (to continue the Daley_Lama/ VivaDonaldo metaphor)
ps - your dad was only 25 yards out and this century isn't done |
It's the board who need to do the "sharing", not individuals expressing concern at the apparent attempt to railroad a limited range of options with the pretty pathetic addition of maintaining that only at the EGM can there be a "proper debate"
That last comment tells us something about their mindset
The end of the century from 1975 isn't 2100 - please concentrate | |
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| New shares on 20:39 - Mar 11 with 2004 views | 442Dale |
| New shares on 20:33 - Mar 11 by D_Alien |
It's the board who need to do the "sharing", not individuals expressing concern at the apparent attempt to railroad a limited range of options with the pretty pathetic addition of maintaining that only at the EGM can there be a "proper debate"
That last comment tells us something about their mindset
The end of the century from 1975 isn't 2100 - please concentrate |
The board have the perfect opportunity, as they are comprised of fans of Rochdale AFC, to have a proper debate at the Trust EGM and look to inform, reassure and invite opinion from fellow supporters.
Presumably that opportunity won’t be missed. | |
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| New shares on 20:58 - Mar 11 with 1960 views | rhf |
Just a different spin on this, you would expect any investor in business to want at least some return on their money (unless they were an out and out dale fan or philanthropist-which seems unlikely). How is anyone going to get a return at dale, certainly not through the turnstiles,or the bars,and in all reality the coa is hardly going to be a leader in the conference or event market, we are a stones throw away from a major city, the competition is huge. So am struggling to see what’s in it for an investor, unless of course you have the ground! I guess we need to know more before a real view but as it stands and looking at the posts and message from the club it doesn’t feel right. | | | |
| New shares on 21:01 - Mar 11 with 1945 views | fitzochris |
| New shares on 20:58 - Mar 11 by rhf |
Just a different spin on this, you would expect any investor in business to want at least some return on their money (unless they were an out and out dale fan or philanthropist-which seems unlikely). How is anyone going to get a return at dale, certainly not through the turnstiles,or the bars,and in all reality the coa is hardly going to be a leader in the conference or event market, we are a stones throw away from a major city, the competition is huge. So am struggling to see what’s in it for an investor, unless of course you have the ground! I guess we need to know more before a real view but as it stands and looking at the posts and message from the club it doesn’t feel right. |
https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/members/rochdale/forum/255704/charlton’s-new-own |  |
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| New shares on 21:31 - Mar 11 with 1877 views | tony_roch975 |
| New shares on 20:33 - Mar 11 by D_Alien |
It's the board who need to do the "sharing", not individuals expressing concern at the apparent attempt to railroad a limited range of options with the pretty pathetic addition of maintaining that only at the EGM can there be a "proper debate"
That last comment tells us something about their mindset
The end of the century from 1975 isn't 2100 - please concentrate |
Let me be clear DA - in my judgement the Board's tactical choice on how to raise this issue has been a worse own goal than playing out from the back thinking you're Man City when you're not, but we are where we are. The dangers are clear to all - even the Board's EGM letter acknowledges 'the concerns' we all have. Railing against those dangers may be cathartic but it doesn't solve the problem - lower league football clubs like Dale are not financially viable in the long term. If you're going to suggest the Trust oppose everything, that's one of the 3 routes I set out but if you (& 442 etc) have other achievable alternatives to make the club more financially viable we all need to know them before the 21st. That's why I sought your sharing.
As another poster was wont to regularly type last night .. over to you.
ps - but the end of "this" century is! (the clue's in the word I used) [Post edited 11 Mar 2020 21:33]
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| New shares on 21:39 - Mar 11 with 1857 views | TalkingSutty |
| New shares on 16:20 - Mar 11 by VivaDonaldo |
What's this number supposed to represent? |
In probably around about the last 14 months...the sale of Magahey, Cannon, Rafferty, Adshead, Luke and Dawson’s Transfer add on equates to well over £2.5 million and that’s being conservative. Gate receipts from United and Newcastle twice, plus FA Cup prize money and big money from television payments relating to the Wrexham/Boston/Newcastle games. The exact figures for Cup prize money and live television games are all on line if people want to check, if you add all these figures up it’s around about £4 million pound EXTRA money which wouldn’t have been budgeted for. Admittedly it’s not money that we will receive straight away but even if we did we wouldn’t spend it instantly so that’s not a big deal, it can be budgeted for going forward though.
People are posting that we have just sold Luke, or we have had to pay for the pitch etc, or we overspent in the last budget, but the reality is that we have hit the jackpot over the last twelve months or so. This doesn’t sit well with some fans because they revel in the notion that we are skint and the cupboard is bare, the evidence suggests that we can’t be though because we’ve never had a better financial year than the last one have we? |  | | |
| New shares on 21:51 - Mar 11 with 1823 views | Dorislove |
| New shares on 08:47 - Mar 11 by judd |
Not disputing the bigger picture, I suppose I was intrigued why the following post:
"ps - I have just discovered that at least 1 of the shareholders currently appearing in the Companies House register (and named as such in this thread) is no longer a shareholder"
quoted the following post specifically:
"Other significant shareholdings are Elizabeth Hazelhurst 16075 Geoffrey Brierly 14387 plus 15 others 2000 to 6360"
Perhaps the post was not addressing those named in the post it was responding to, but I wonder if a 5 figure shareholding has changed, which I think is of some significance,. For one, I would hope that the Trust are aware of the availability of shares outside of the club's control. |
Be interesting to see an up to date share listing as of today,too many people of significant shareholding have passed through the gates of san spotland never to be seen again. |  | | |
| New shares on 21:52 - Mar 11 with 1815 views | nordenblue |
| New shares on 21:39 - Mar 11 by TalkingSutty |
In probably around about the last 14 months...the sale of Magahey, Cannon, Rafferty, Adshead, Luke and Dawson’s Transfer add on equates to well over £2.5 million and that’s being conservative. Gate receipts from United and Newcastle twice, plus FA Cup prize money and big money from television payments relating to the Wrexham/Boston/Newcastle games. The exact figures for Cup prize money and live television games are all on line if people want to check, if you add all these figures up it’s around about £4 million pound EXTRA money which wouldn’t have been budgeted for. Admittedly it’s not money that we will receive straight away but even if we did we wouldn’t spend it instantly so that’s not a big deal, it can be budgeted for going forward though.
People are posting that we have just sold Luke, or we have had to pay for the pitch etc, or we overspent in the last budget, but the reality is that we have hit the jackpot over the last twelve months or so. This doesn’t sit well with some fans because they revel in the notion that we are skint and the cupboard is bare, the evidence suggests that we can’t be though because we’ve never had a better financial year than the last one have we? |
I agree with all your points TS to be honest, but is our "sudden" portrayed dire money situation just a direct result of combining the 2 sets of year ends returns rather than keeping the stadium company saddled with the(hidden?)debt and not the football club as was before,making the football club now appear "skint"?
Somethings definitely not sitting quite right however its dressed up and even more so with all the apparent secrecy recently surrounding the shares. [Post edited 11 Mar 2020 21:54]
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| New shares on 21:54 - Mar 11 with 1797 views | SuddenLad |
| New shares on 21:39 - Mar 11 by TalkingSutty |
In probably around about the last 14 months...the sale of Magahey, Cannon, Rafferty, Adshead, Luke and Dawson’s Transfer add on equates to well over £2.5 million and that’s being conservative. Gate receipts from United and Newcastle twice, plus FA Cup prize money and big money from television payments relating to the Wrexham/Boston/Newcastle games. The exact figures for Cup prize money and live television games are all on line if people want to check, if you add all these figures up it’s around about £4 million pound EXTRA money which wouldn’t have been budgeted for. Admittedly it’s not money that we will receive straight away but even if we did we wouldn’t spend it instantly so that’s not a big deal, it can be budgeted for going forward though.
People are posting that we have just sold Luke, or we have had to pay for the pitch etc, or we overspent in the last budget, but the reality is that we have hit the jackpot over the last twelve months or so. This doesn’t sit well with some fans because they revel in the notion that we are skint and the cupboard is bare, the evidence suggests that we can’t be though because we’ve never had a better financial year than the last one have we? |
I agree, but it begs the question, "why are the Board pleading poverty'? |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| New shares on 21:57 - Mar 11 with 1791 views | Dorislove |
| New shares on 21:54 - Mar 11 by SuddenLad |
I agree, but it begs the question, "why are the Board pleading poverty'? |
To portray a feeling of we need this investment to survive,this may be true at 6m spending per year ,reign it in then and see where we go .Maybe down a league or 2 i dont know but to me its better than russian roulette. | | | |
| New shares on 21:57 - Mar 11 with 1783 views | D_Alien |
| New shares on 21:31 - Mar 11 by tony_roch975 |
Let me be clear DA - in my judgement the Board's tactical choice on how to raise this issue has been a worse own goal than playing out from the back thinking you're Man City when you're not, but we are where we are. The dangers are clear to all - even the Board's EGM letter acknowledges 'the concerns' we all have. Railing against those dangers may be cathartic but it doesn't solve the problem - lower league football clubs like Dale are not financially viable in the long term. If you're going to suggest the Trust oppose everything, that's one of the 3 routes I set out but if you (& 442 etc) have other achievable alternatives to make the club more financially viable we all need to know them before the 21st. That's why I sought your sharing.
As another poster was wont to regularly type last night .. over to you.
ps - but the end of "this" century is! (the clue's in the word I used) [Post edited 11 Mar 2020 21:33]
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Oh, right
I'll give you a clue. Share options that don't exclude current shareholders, thus opening up any number of routes to increase funding | |
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| New shares on 21:58 - Mar 11 with 1776 views | judd |
| New shares on 21:39 - Mar 11 by TalkingSutty |
In probably around about the last 14 months...the sale of Magahey, Cannon, Rafferty, Adshead, Luke and Dawson’s Transfer add on equates to well over £2.5 million and that’s being conservative. Gate receipts from United and Newcastle twice, plus FA Cup prize money and big money from television payments relating to the Wrexham/Boston/Newcastle games. The exact figures for Cup prize money and live television games are all on line if people want to check, if you add all these figures up it’s around about £4 million pound EXTRA money which wouldn’t have been budgeted for. Admittedly it’s not money that we will receive straight away but even if we did we wouldn’t spend it instantly so that’s not a big deal, it can be budgeted for going forward though.
People are posting that we have just sold Luke, or we have had to pay for the pitch etc, or we overspent in the last budget, but the reality is that we have hit the jackpot over the last twelve months or so. This doesn’t sit well with some fans because they revel in the notion that we are skint and the cupboard is bare, the evidence suggests that we can’t be though because we’ve never had a better financial year than the last one have we? |
With regards the new pitch, I would expect that cashflow in paying for it will not be a lump sum, rather spread out to see if the pitch proved itself. Just a guess but reading between the lines of what was said at the forum.
On another matter, I think any restriction on shareholder rights is dangerous and far too risky to allow. I don't think it is aimed at Doris & Lama Bonkers but at bigger shareholders.
I know the statement mentions a board of directors with many years experience running the club. No problem with those 2 gentlemen. We also had a myriad of changes throughout the club and at all levels because new blood has deemed previous management as not good enough, it would appear.
We have a tremendous youth set up, properly managed and funded of course.
We own the ground, car park and pub, all of which took time to regain.
I doubt that ANY fan thinks that ANY board member is seeking to profiteer from this share issue, and I would hope that fans airing concerns with regards the future ownership model are taken as genuine and not as those thoughts of a negative trouble causer.
Over to you... |  |
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| New shares on 22:01 - Mar 11 with 1763 views | tony_roch975 |
| New shares on 21:39 - Mar 11 by TalkingSutty |
In probably around about the last 14 months...the sale of Magahey, Cannon, Rafferty, Adshead, Luke and Dawson’s Transfer add on equates to well over £2.5 million and that’s being conservative. Gate receipts from United and Newcastle twice, plus FA Cup prize money and big money from television payments relating to the Wrexham/Boston/Newcastle games. The exact figures for Cup prize money and live television games are all on line if people want to check, if you add all these figures up it’s around about £4 million pound EXTRA money which wouldn’t have been budgeted for. Admittedly it’s not money that we will receive straight away but even if we did we wouldn’t spend it instantly so that’s not a big deal, it can be budgeted for going forward though.
People are posting that we have just sold Luke, or we have had to pay for the pitch etc, or we overspent in the last budget, but the reality is that we have hit the jackpot over the last twelve months or so. This doesn’t sit well with some fans because they revel in the notion that we are skint and the cupboard is bare, the evidence suggests that we can’t be though because we’ve never had a better financial year than the last one have we? |
all true and also all chance - we've had half a dozen top flight cup ties in 6 years (with their TV consequentials) but we can't budget to have another in the next decade. We've sold Dawson & Matheson but I couldn't name another youth team starlet worth £1M. The sale of Cannon etc was (rightly) seen by many fans as a bad football decision forced by financial problems - hardly something to plan to do every year. So thankfully this season will write off the debts from the last but no guarantees that will continue - in fact the opposite. The new pitch and ticket system won't come cheap, couple of hundred thousand under threat from Coronavirus and, as you say, the Dawson money won't all arrive till 2022.
So the cupboard isn't bare but relying on winning jackpots gets you down the Kenny Sansom/Paul Merson routes. Winning jackpots should be for new bonus initiatives - rebuild a stand etc not for the bread & butter financing of the club. | |
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| New shares on 22:05 - Mar 11 with 1745 views | Dorislove |
| New shares on 22:01 - Mar 11 by tony_roch975 |
all true and also all chance - we've had half a dozen top flight cup ties in 6 years (with their TV consequentials) but we can't budget to have another in the next decade. We've sold Dawson & Matheson but I couldn't name another youth team starlet worth £1M. The sale of Cannon etc was (rightly) seen by many fans as a bad football decision forced by financial problems - hardly something to plan to do every year. So thankfully this season will write off the debts from the last but no guarantees that will continue - in fact the opposite. The new pitch and ticket system won't come cheap, couple of hundred thousand under threat from Coronavirus and, as you say, the Dawson money won't all arrive till 2022.
So the cupboard isn't bare but relying on winning jackpots gets you down the Kenny Sansom/Paul Merson routes. Winning jackpots should be for new bonus initiatives - rebuild a stand etc not for the bread & butter financing of the club. |
The Dawson money comes sept 20 and sept 21 according to the birmingham paper. | | | |
| New shares on 22:05 - Mar 11 with 1740 views | judd |
| New shares on 22:01 - Mar 11 by tony_roch975 |
all true and also all chance - we've had half a dozen top flight cup ties in 6 years (with their TV consequentials) but we can't budget to have another in the next decade. We've sold Dawson & Matheson but I couldn't name another youth team starlet worth £1M. The sale of Cannon etc was (rightly) seen by many fans as a bad football decision forced by financial problems - hardly something to plan to do every year. So thankfully this season will write off the debts from the last but no guarantees that will continue - in fact the opposite. The new pitch and ticket system won't come cheap, couple of hundred thousand under threat from Coronavirus and, as you say, the Dawson money won't all arrive till 2022.
So the cupboard isn't bare but relying on winning jackpots gets you down the Kenny Sansom/Paul Merson routes. Winning jackpots should be for new bonus initiatives - rebuild a stand etc not for the bread & butter financing of the club. |
What debt?
You mean losses, yeah?
The last 2 seasons were funded by cash, not borrowings
Credit (arf) to the magnificent fiscal prudence under Dunphy | |
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| New shares on 22:07 - Mar 11 with 1736 views | TalkingSutty |
| New shares on 21:52 - Mar 11 by nordenblue |
I agree with all your points TS to be honest, but is our "sudden" portrayed dire money situation just a direct result of combining the 2 sets of year ends returns rather than keeping the stadium company saddled with the(hidden?)debt and not the football club as was before,making the football club now appear "skint"?
Somethings definitely not sitting quite right however its dressed up and even more so with all the apparent secrecy recently surrounding the shares. [Post edited 11 Mar 2020 21:54]
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It’s the way all that money just seems to be dismissed that annoys me, not just by those in the boardroom and the CEO, but also the supporters. The Matheson money is a small portion of what we have generated since January 2019, but it’s as though this a dirty secret and not to be mentioned, either that or as a fanbase we really don’t take notice of the extra money we are generating through player sales, add ons, FA Cup prize money/gate receipts/ live television payments. By all means point out the financial struggles but in the interest of fairness let’s take a realistic look at the financial success since the boardroom re-shuffle. | | | |
| New shares on 22:11 - Mar 11 with 1725 views | tony_roch975 |
| New shares on 21:57 - Mar 11 by D_Alien |
Oh, right
I'll give you a clue. Share options that don't exclude current shareholders, thus opening up any number of routes to increase funding |
Yes, that's one of my routes (attract investment) but keeps the shares 'in the family'. So I'll commit here to buy my (pre-emption) proportion (60 shares @ £6). That leaves just another 696983 shares @ £6 for folk to agree to buy .. over to you. | |
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| New shares on 22:15 - Mar 11 with 1701 views | Dorislove |
| New shares on 22:11 - Mar 11 by tony_roch975 |
Yes, that's one of my routes (attract investment) but keeps the shares 'in the family'. So I'll commit here to buy my (pre-emption) proportion (60 shares @ £6). That leaves just another 696983 shares @ £6 for folk to agree to buy .. over to you. |
Eh up chuckle brothers take it easy . | | | |
| New shares on 22:17 - Mar 11 with 1697 views | tony_roch975 |
| New shares on 22:05 - Mar 11 by judd |
What debt?
You mean losses, yeah?
The last 2 seasons were funded by cash, not borrowings
Credit (arf) to the magnificent fiscal prudence under Dunphy |
I stand rightly corrected - (arf) that's a lie, I'm sat down! | |
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