| Latimer Road 02:31 - Jun 14 with 102858 views | stowmarketrange |
A big fire in a tower block in Latimer Road just been reported on 5live.Eyewitness says there are people trapped on the upper floors.
I hope everyone gets out safely. |  | | |  |
| Latimer Road on 18:20 - Jun 14 with 4083 views | pamment8 |
Let's just have a bit of reflection rather than who built what.
People have lost loved ones and everything they own. |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 18:28 - Jun 14 with 4056 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
This tragedy is absolutely saturated in failed policy. How can it not be political?
I'll spare you all my usual bullshit, but there are some glaringly obvious things that need to be said publicly. |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 18:35 - Jun 14 with 4023 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Latimer Road on 18:28 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
This tragedy is absolutely saturated in failed policy. How can it not be political?
I'll spare you all my usual bullshit, but there are some glaringly obvious things that need to be said publicly. |
For the record 2T2B , you can stick your up arrow up your arse. | | | |
| Latimer Road on 18:42 - Jun 14 with 3987 views | Boston |
| Latimer Road on 17:35 - Jun 14 by MedwayR |
As far as I'm aware sprinkler systems were not fitted and also not required, only required in new builds.
So following a similar incident 8 years ago where 6 people died I believe that there was a review which identified (4000?) tower blocks at risk of the same, and nothing was done about them.
No requirement for sprinklers in these outdated buildings, no requirement for more than one escape route. So this place at Latimer Road had no sprinklers & only one escape route, seems the fire alarm system didn't work, seems the dry riser didn't work or the fire brigade couldn't get access to it, a lack of water pressure didn't help, there had been power surges in the building which had blown tenants appliances, the tenants had raised concerns multiple times but were ignored, and it seems that during this refurbishment instead of dealing with safety issues they wrapped the building in cladding which helped the fire spread.
This is literally the stuff of nightmares, no way should this be happening in a 21st century developed country. Are they going to do something about other tower blocks now or just ignore it again. I believe that there are 4 other similar/identical tower blocks nearby, I can't imagine their residents will be sleeping much tonight or for the foreseeable future.
This can't be allowed to happen again, it makes me both sad and angry. I hope those affected recover and that the death toll doesn't rise, although sadly I expect it will and possibly significantly. RIP. |
Thanks for the info. I won't go into the fire abatement laws Stateside, they vary considerably anyway, but most insurance companies (over here), , will encourage multi unit property owners with reduced premiums, then, if not taken up, refuse to cover, before any government regulation forces compliance. Strikes me that even if nothing else happens, the installation of sprinklers should be a priority, if you have the money to clad, then you have the money for Cad.
While you scratch your head concerning building codes, the 1974 date of completion means they were designed to safety regulations from the 60's that never foresaw disasters like this occurring, which is disgraceful really when you consider the city was forged from a Great Fire. We should and usually do, learn by our mistakes in construction. [Post edited 14 Jun 2017 18:42]
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| Latimer Road on 18:47 - Jun 14 with 3956 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Latimer Road on 18:35 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
For the record 2T2B , you can stick your up arrow up your arse. |
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| Latimer Road on 19:26 - Jun 14 with 3831 views | DannytheR |
Feel a bit fcking broken by this. I lived in the housing association flats bang opposite from the age of 8 to 13 and had mates in there for a long time afterwards. I can't even begin to conceive of what people went thorough in there.
There will have to be some very very serious questions asked about the developer and the whoe way social housing has been treated in London - but for now your heart just breaks for the 12 who died and everyone at the scene. And no end of kudos again to the bravery of the firefighters and emergency services.
This is cruel. |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 19:34 - Jun 14 with 3795 views | FredManRave |
The photos were shocking enough but having read some of the eyewitness accounts about what they saw and heard it takes it to another horrific level.
Absolute horror. |  |
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| Latimer Road on 19:36 - Jun 14 with 3790 views | Lblock |
| Latimer Road on 13:41 - Jun 14 by johncharles |
Kensington and Chelsea Council would have had to make a final inspection before the works were signed off. The buck has to stop somewhere. |
I'm just going through this thread as a catch up on the tragic events
I'm aghast at people jumping on political gain even as the building still burns. This one spurred a post
You do appreciate that the actual civil officers will more than likely be the same no matter which party are in power? That aside all departments are under massive pressure and I'm saying that in relation to the public and private sectors. Modern day attitudes are quicker, faster, cheaper and simpler.... it's tragic and corporate manslaughter will be the end result
Of course it might be that underhand corner cutting and dodgy deals could be at hand. If so then to hell with corporate manslaughter it should be murder.
But then I'm sure it'll end up being a right wing Zionist plot |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Latimer Road on 19:39 - Jun 14 with 3781 views | johncharles |
| Latimer Road on 19:26 - Jun 14 by DannytheR |
Feel a bit fcking broken by this. I lived in the housing association flats bang opposite from the age of 8 to 13 and had mates in there for a long time afterwards. I can't even begin to conceive of what people went thorough in there.
There will have to be some very very serious questions asked about the developer and the whoe way social housing has been treated in London - but for now your heart just breaks for the 12 who died and everyone at the scene. And no end of kudos again to the bravery of the firefighters and emergency services.
This is cruel. |
Just seen some pictures of firefighter sitting the floor looking exhausted and haunted. They'll need help to get over this. |  |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Latimer Road on 19:57 - Jun 14 with 3728 views | Lblock |
I used to work with one of Rydon's former Directors and a lot of my old Site Managers went over there to work.
From my understanding their approach is no different to a lot of similar Contractors:-
Price it cheap
Put forward a programme that's unachievable
Win the job
Bonus target the management
Use cheapest subbies mainly forgein labour, value engineer design to cheapest solution and pay lip service to any CDP. You then need to have the Building Control Officer dancing or tied up in knots which is easier if the role is being done by an A.I
However, company culture is one side of it - it boils down to individual skill sets as well. I work with some quality managers who ensure things are done the right way and pride themselves in quality
Just caught up with the news and this goes beyond shocking | |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Latimer Road on 20:26 - Jun 14 with 3638 views | Boston |
| Latimer Road on 19:57 - Jun 14 by Lblock |
I used to work with one of Rydon's former Directors and a lot of my old Site Managers went over there to work.
From my understanding their approach is no different to a lot of similar Contractors:-
Price it cheap
Put forward a programme that's unachievable
Win the job
Bonus target the management
Use cheapest subbies mainly forgein labour, value engineer design to cheapest solution and pay lip service to any CDP. You then need to have the Building Control Officer dancing or tied up in knots which is easier if the role is being done by an A.I
However, company culture is one side of it - it boils down to individual skill sets as well. I work with some quality managers who ensure things are done the right way and pride themselves in quality
Just caught up with the news and this goes beyond shocking |
L, as you're aware, underpricing is a long standing practice in the English building industry. The submission of a contract to perform a defined job is often long on the specifics only achievable under laboratory conditions, but very short on explaining,costing any difficulties or variances from the paperwork, even when any experienced contractor knew well on advance they would almost certainly run into on-site problems. Weak project managers are run rings around, NO ONE waving only a university degree should be allowed anywhere near this end of the job, only hard nosed building site bar$tards who've actually hands on worked or run their own company should be down in the trenches.
Nowadays I have a loyal and long standing relationship with most of customers and am not afraid to remind them that the contracts they sign are not for their protection, they're for mine. [Post edited 14 Jun 2017 20:29]
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| Latimer Road on 20:35 - Jun 14 with 3602 views | Lblock |
| Latimer Road on 20:26 - Jun 14 by Boston |
L, as you're aware, underpricing is a long standing practice in the English building industry. The submission of a contract to perform a defined job is often long on the specifics only achievable under laboratory conditions, but very short on explaining,costing any difficulties or variances from the paperwork, even when any experienced contractor knew well on advance they would almost certainly run into on-site problems. Weak project managers are run rings around, NO ONE waving only a university degree should be allowed anywhere near this end of the job, only hard nosed building site bar$tards who've actually hands on worked or run their own company should be down in the trenches.
Nowadays I have a loyal and long standing relationship with most of customers and am not afraid to remind them that the contracts they sign are not for their protection, they're for mine. [Post edited 14 Jun 2017 20:29]
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Agree with you whole-heartedly fella.
As Sir Michael Latham said many, many, many moons ago; it's all about "Trust and Money"
As for paper qualified PM's you're talking my lingo. I recall during my training years I was scared shotless of the Site Managers that worked for us - their bite was certainly as bad as their bark!! It was top down as well -- the Directors were all time served building men either muddy boots or commercial bods.
Now, for instance, my current MD is an accountant!
One thing I would say though, despite harking back to those days of "proper builders", we killed a lot more of our own. Health and Safety consisted of a box of plasters, prayers and a lot of luck!
Anyway... Building Standards will be a big topic now and no doubt fire breaks etc will be number one on inspections.
However, I recall a few years back there was a similar issue on the Golf Links in Greenford where the lack of fire compartmentation was a factor in a whole block going up. They rolled out a big scheme across blocks improving these but many were found to be best part useless on future inspections. | |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Latimer Road on 21:04 - Jun 14 with 3518 views | Northernr |
Been watching this all day getting steadily more and more angry. Saw the BBC basically give the head of the council a bubble bath earlier when residents have been saying for months they've been taking their concerns directly to him and he's done nothing. So I'll have a little ramble now just to get it out.
Shocked yes, but surprised no. And I'd be absolutely amazed if anybody on here who has rented either privately or publicly in this city in the recent past can honestly say they're surprised by this
.There are so many people needing housing in London and so few places to put them that councils and private landlords are basically being allowed to rent out any old unsafe sht, charge what they like, behave as they like. And they're absolutely coining it in. This block of flats had a £10m refurb which didn't include £60k needed to fix the lifts, nor £300k required to fit a sprinkler system, but made it look nice from the outside using a material that goes up like matchwood. This is a council owned block with the management of it subcontracted out, and they subcontracted the development to one private company who subcontracted the refurb out to two others. All of them absolutely coining it in all the way. Net result of refurb - block looks nicer from outside, still an absolute shthole inside, still unsafe.
How can it be that new builds have to have sprinkler systems and old ones don't? How is that a thing? In 2017 in London, you can have a block of 115 flats with no sprinkler system? And you spend £10m putting plastic cladding on the outside!!!
I rented until November last year in a small three storey block (1970s) in a nice part of the city from somebody I considered to be a very decent private landlady, via a vile letting agent called Anscombe and Ringland. We had our boiler inspected two years before we left and the inspector put a sticker on it saying it was unsafe. Landlady said that was a technicality (it was really, they said it emptied out into an enclosed space because the outlet was two inches shorter than it should have been, but it was an old boiler that needed replacing) and was angry we'd let him inspect it without her being there. Boiler conked out constantly for the last two years we were there but she wouldn't replace it because it cost £1,500 to do (our rent was £1,300 a month BTW and she had two places bringing in that each month. Two, three days with no hot water fairly common.
The flat developed over the five years a serious damp problem, she did nothing about this and in fact when she came round she'd have a go at us for not spraying the walls with mould remover often enough. Shower was faulty, carpets were rotten. When our smoke alarm went off (every time Simmo did a cooked breakfast) that was it, no other smoke alarms in the other flats went off, no sprinkler system, no centralised fire alarm. If it was a fire the only way the other residents would have known is if we'd gone and knocked on their door.
And this was a nice flat, in a nice block, with a decent landlord.
Every April the contract was up for renewal, Anscombe sent us the same deal again with the dates changed and charged us £100 to print it off ourselves, sign it and send it back to them. When we contested this they said "you agree to pay the fee by signing the contract, it's on page 17" and when we say what happens if we don't sign page 17 they said they'd rent it to somebody else. Every year the letting agent advised the ladlady to stick £200 on our rent - to her credit she only upped it twice in five years.
It cost us £4k just to move in, in advance rent, deposit, admin fees etc. If we didn't or couldn't pay it we couldn't have it. In the month before we moved in, they hawked it around at £200 a month more without telling us.
People in this city are living in squalid, unsafe conditions. Their complaints about damp, fire hazards etc are going ignored. They're paying a fortune for it and they're not even safe and private companies and letting agents are coining it in. And they can get away with it because the regulations aren't up to it, there's no desire to go after landlords (core voters), and there are too many people for too few houses in LOndon so if you don't rent it somebody else soon will.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 21:10 - Jun 14 with 3490 views | Northernr |
| Latimer Road on 19:39 - Jun 14 by johncharles |
Just seen some pictures of firefighter sitting the floor looking exhausted and haunted. They'll need help to get over this. |
The helpful people of Twitter are pursuing a "what are they sitting down for when there;s work to be done" line of cntishness. | | | |
| Latimer Road on 21:24 - Jun 14 with 3434 views | Lblock |
Northern... I feel your anger and pain but just a couple of things:-
There is no way £300k would fit you a sprinkler system in that block covering the communal areas, you simply couldn't or wouldn't fit it in the dwellings.
I have strong reservations about the cladding. As noted on here, the much feted BS Kite Mark is now simply lip service and thanks to the good old EU and open trade there's all sorts of different Certification for products now. The stuff from China is laughable.
However lets assume the product had Class O rating for spread of flame. The fault MUST lay in the installation and sub-strate plus I'd be surprised if a fridge catching alight could give such combustible ignition. Something is clearly wrong and the minimum fire break of 30 minutes has clearly failed at the centres called for by the Regulations.
The Contracting route you note is UK standard. I'd suspect this may be an Estates Management Contract under the "Better Homes Initiative" and part of a pack but more likely a one off tender. So the cheapest price usually awarded the job and successful Contractor will only employ Managers and everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, is sub-contracted out. Margins are still tight my friend!! I work in the higher end commercial sector and can assure you whilst money is made nobody is "coining it in"
In respect of Landlords I'd likely first to re-dress the balance by saying there's plenty of bad landlords but you can multiply that 10 fold with bad tenants.
I'm all for this industry being more stringently regularized but if there's a Landlord charter then there needs to be a Tenant register.
Every property should have / be:
Weathertight
Secure
Safe
Fully working amenities such as H&C running water and a bog (I even include phone / broadband myself!)
Be clean and pleasant
A contract of goodwill between both parties where it's kept nice and the L/L does "structural repairs" such as the boiler.
On boilers..... a boiler can be "non compliant" but still safe. The Gas Safe Regs change every year and existing boilers do not need to keep apace with these.
Agencies charging yearly fee's are conts and I do not agree with it at all.
I'm small time but I practice what I preach above and have had the same tenants for over 4 years now.
Next time you're moving give me a shout!!!! | |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Latimer Road on 21:27 - Jun 14 with 3415 views | Northernr |
| Latimer Road on 21:24 - Jun 14 by Lblock |
Northern... I feel your anger and pain but just a couple of things:-
There is no way £300k would fit you a sprinkler system in that block covering the communal areas, you simply couldn't or wouldn't fit it in the dwellings.
I have strong reservations about the cladding. As noted on here, the much feted BS Kite Mark is now simply lip service and thanks to the good old EU and open trade there's all sorts of different Certification for products now. The stuff from China is laughable.
However lets assume the product had Class O rating for spread of flame. The fault MUST lay in the installation and sub-strate plus I'd be surprised if a fridge catching alight could give such combustible ignition. Something is clearly wrong and the minimum fire break of 30 minutes has clearly failed at the centres called for by the Regulations.
The Contracting route you note is UK standard. I'd suspect this may be an Estates Management Contract under the "Better Homes Initiative" and part of a pack but more likely a one off tender. So the cheapest price usually awarded the job and successful Contractor will only employ Managers and everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, is sub-contracted out. Margins are still tight my friend!! I work in the higher end commercial sector and can assure you whilst money is made nobody is "coining it in"
In respect of Landlords I'd likely first to re-dress the balance by saying there's plenty of bad landlords but you can multiply that 10 fold with bad tenants.
I'm all for this industry being more stringently regularized but if there's a Landlord charter then there needs to be a Tenant register.
Every property should have / be:
Weathertight
Secure
Safe
Fully working amenities such as H&C running water and a bog (I even include phone / broadband myself!)
Be clean and pleasant
A contract of goodwill between both parties where it's kept nice and the L/L does "structural repairs" such as the boiler.
On boilers..... a boiler can be "non compliant" but still safe. The Gas Safe Regs change every year and existing boilers do not need to keep apace with these.
Agencies charging yearly fee's are conts and I do not agree with it at all.
I'm small time but I practice what I preach above and have had the same tenants for over 4 years now.
Next time you're moving give me a shout!!!! |
Good post mate, plenty to consider. I bought in November so if it gets damp or burns down now it's my fault. | | | |
| Latimer Road on 21:38 - Jun 14 with 3373 views | PunteR |
Could be poor design of the cladding . i read that the building had vertical columns from Top to bottom . The cladding on them was hollow. Similar thing to the cctv building that burnt down in beijing. Although a firework caused that. Poor design and materials.
Agree with Boston and Lblock.
Cheap materials, cheap unskilled labour, poor management could a massive factor before we even get onto the ethics of social housing management and the politics game.
I have wondered the logic behind the different building regs for a new build compared to existing buildings. |  |
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| Latimer Road on 21:52 - Jun 14 with 3320 views | Northernr |
| Latimer Road on 21:38 - Jun 14 by PunteR |
Could be poor design of the cladding . i read that the building had vertical columns from Top to bottom . The cladding on them was hollow. Similar thing to the cctv building that burnt down in beijing. Although a firework caused that. Poor design and materials.
Agree with Boston and Lblock.
Cheap materials, cheap unskilled labour, poor management could a massive factor before we even get onto the ethics of social housing management and the politics game.
I have wondered the logic behind the different building regs for a new build compared to existing buildings. |
There is no logic to it, it's purely landlords of existing property don't want to pay for the upgrade.
This plastic cladding feels like a con to me anyway. Looks nicer, extra insulation, save your money and put a sprinkler system in surely? | | | |
| Latimer Road on 22:07 - Jun 14 with 3255 views | johncharles |
| Latimer Road on 21:10 - Jun 14 by Northernr |
The helpful people of Twitter are pursuing a "what are they sitting down for when there;s work to be done" line of cntishness. |
Twitter has become a random word generator. I don't think there's any human intelligence in there.
However, I would like to punch the knob that put that up. [Post edited 14 Jun 2017 22:09]
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| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Latimer Road on 22:13 - Jun 14 with 3226 views | Lblock |
Existing property stock, especially in London, is a nightmare.
We know things now that weren't ever considered in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's ... you follow I'm sure.
You simply cannot do certain upgrades due to physical types of construction and therefore your duty is simply "to make efforts" and lots of the time that is only when carrying out refurb works.
The only solution is demo and re-build.
For instance, when the DDA Regs came in it was a nightmare for many businesses; how could they install ramps, Ambulant WC's etc when they wouldn't actually fit into their areas to the Regulation sizes????
This tragic and horrible event is NOT however one of those. The primary issue above all others is Life Safety works and fire compartmenting is numero uno. Fire breaks can be installed relatively easy by use of the right products and can be achieved by a simply over boarding of ceilings etc. Fire escapes can be made 2 hour fire rated if planned correctly and should be vented and lit correctly, if nothing else they become refuges for those wanting to escape and are vital for the brigade and their own safety.
There's people who have lost people, people who have lost everything and people who I am sure will lose their liberty in a few years time. The last on that list deserve no sympathy IF they are proved to be willfully negligent. | |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Latimer Road on 22:34 - Jun 14 with 3118 views | IrishR |
Spoke to a policewomen I know who was there for the day and she said she sincerely hopes the numbers she was quoted as possible fatalities are not true. Very Very sad. Does anyone know if there is a need for voluntary work for this over the weekend? [Post edited 14 Jun 2017 22:54]
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| Latimer Road on 22:34 - Jun 14 with 3113 views | Brightonhoop |
| Latimer Road on 22:13 - Jun 14 by Lblock |
Existing property stock, especially in London, is a nightmare.
We know things now that weren't ever considered in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's ... you follow I'm sure.
You simply cannot do certain upgrades due to physical types of construction and therefore your duty is simply "to make efforts" and lots of the time that is only when carrying out refurb works.
The only solution is demo and re-build.
For instance, when the DDA Regs came in it was a nightmare for many businesses; how could they install ramps, Ambulant WC's etc when they wouldn't actually fit into their areas to the Regulation sizes????
This tragic and horrible event is NOT however one of those. The primary issue above all others is Life Safety works and fire compartmenting is numero uno. Fire breaks can be installed relatively easy by use of the right products and can be achieved by a simply over boarding of ceilings etc. Fire escapes can be made 2 hour fire rated if planned correctly and should be vented and lit correctly, if nothing else they become refuges for those wanting to escape and are vital for the brigade and their own safety.
There's people who have lost people, people who have lost everything and people who I am sure will lose their liberty in a few years time. The last on that list deserve no sympathy IF they are proved to be willfully negligent. |
The Co that fitted the cladding is based in Crowborough, East Sussex, nr Brighton. He sounded very confident earlier that the cladding was not at fault. Early days but until we know. He may well be right.
The photos emerging are shocking, horrible, so much so I had to stop viewing.
Can't begin to imagine what some went through. |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 22:38 - Jun 14 with 3092 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
20 hours on and it's still burning
A lot of British tradesmen have over the last 20 years been driven away from large sites
cost being the main one
Nvq apparently being preferred to C&G's
No investment in apprenticeships
CSCS cards just a money making industry
Immigrant Labour basic training NVQ and little to no long experience
Agency workers
PM's and site manages with no on the tools experience replacing foreman
We have all heard the line of British Tradesmen are too expensive or they don't want to work on the sites... it's no bloody wonder why.
Most of the people I know in my trade now work in the film industry 3 times the wages and none of the crap.
As I said before cost over experience on building sites
[Post edited 14 Jun 2017 23:29]
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| Latimer Road on 22:55 - Jun 14 with 3003 views | johncharles |
| Latimer Road on 19:36 - Jun 14 by Lblock |
I'm just going through this thread as a catch up on the tragic events
I'm aghast at people jumping on political gain even as the building still burns. This one spurred a post
You do appreciate that the actual civil officers will more than likely be the same no matter which party are in power? That aside all departments are under massive pressure and I'm saying that in relation to the public and private sectors. Modern day attitudes are quicker, faster, cheaper and simpler.... it's tragic and corporate manslaughter will be the end result
Of course it might be that underhand corner cutting and dodgy deals could be at hand. If so then to hell with corporate manslaughter it should be murder.
But then I'm sure it'll end up being a right wing Zionist plot |
Yes, I do appreciate that the actual civil officers will be the same no matter which party is in power. After 40 odd years in the trade. I don't understand why you think I was attacking the Tories.
I suppose K & C council is Tory so you put 2&2 together and made 5. I left London some time ago and I now live in Scotland so I couldn't care less.
I will say that that is the only bit of your posts on the matter that I disagree with.
Keep up the good work. | |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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