| Stokes and McClean 14:25 - Nov 11 with 5244 views | simmo |
During the minutes silence at the weekend. McClean has also refused to wear a shirt with a poppy on it for the 2nd year running.
Thoughts? |  |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| Stokes and McClean on 14:29 - Nov 11 with 3473 views | gordanoR |
It's up to him really isn't it? I don't give to a lot of charities as I don't believe in what they are doing, but that's my choice. |  | | |
| Stokes and McClean on 14:32 - Nov 11 with 3448 views | Jamie |
My first thought is that I find it rather ironic that somebody should be criticised for expressing their freedom of speech by declining to commemorate troops that have died for that exact freedom.
My second thought is that Stokes has had a hair transplant. |  | | |
| Stokes and McClean on 14:54 - Nov 11 with 3389 views | Rangersw12 |
Celtic fans also disrupted the mins silence but then I wouldn't expect anything different from that disgusting club
Fenian cnts the lot of them | | | |
| Stokes and McClean on 14:55 - Nov 11 with 3380 views | paulparker |
Stokes has had a transplant , a bit like steven fletchers & Rooneys
ie they look fcuking awful , the sort of barnet that looks like a dead rat has been attached to their heads
as for Mclean its no secret he never wears a poppy and his loyalties lie with supporting of the IRA ,
if that's the case he is a fcuking hypocrite as he is happy to take the English pound and play in an English league ,
also a certain number of Celtic fans interrupted the minutes silence the other day
a scum club, what is ironic is there are hundreds of serviceman who support Celtic who have fought and died in the middle east, same as the thousands of catholic men who fought in 2 world wars before them, |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Stokes and McClean on 15:19 - Nov 11 with 3299 views | CamberleyR |
This is the third year isn't it for McClean, when he was at Sunderland two years ago and last year and this with Wigan? I don't know why anybody's surprised. |  |
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| Stokes and McClean on 15:20 - Nov 11 with 3295 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Stokes and McClean on 14:55 - Nov 11 by paulparker |
Stokes has had a transplant , a bit like steven fletchers & Rooneys
ie they look fcuking awful , the sort of barnet that looks like a dead rat has been attached to their heads
as for Mclean its no secret he never wears a poppy and his loyalties lie with supporting of the IRA ,
if that's the case he is a fcuking hypocrite as he is happy to take the English pound and play in an English league ,
also a certain number of Celtic fans interrupted the minutes silence the other day
a scum club, what is ironic is there are hundreds of serviceman who support Celtic who have fought and died in the middle east, same as the thousands of catholic men who fought in 2 world wars before them, |
"as for Mclean its no secret he never wears a poppy and his loyalties lie with supporting of the IRA"
Paul, the first part is true, the second isn't according to his recent letter.
I don't wear a poppy, though I was born in England, have loads of English friends including you lovely lot, and I detest the IRA.
Post hoc ergo something or other... |  |
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| Stokes and McClean on 15:23 - Nov 11 with 3275 views | daveB |
The people we are remembering died for our freedom and that freedom includes the right not to wear a poppy. If he feels strongly about it that's up to him and on Mcldean his reasons were pretty understandable, I don't see an issue with it |  | | |
| Stokes and McClean on 15:24 - Nov 11 with 3268 views | kensalriser |
Entirely his prerogative and I respect his view. I've not worn a poppy for years, albeit for different reasons (I just don't feel the need). Non-story IMO.
Disrupting the minute's silence is something different - plain bad manners. |  |
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| Stokes and McClean on 15:27 - Nov 11 with 3247 views | Rangersw12 |
| Stokes and McClean on 15:24 - Nov 11 by kensalriser |
Entirely his prerogative and I respect his view. I've not worn a poppy for years, albeit for different reasons (I just don't feel the need). Non-story IMO.
Disrupting the minute's silence is something different - plain bad manners. |
They have always done it but at least this year it has been reported
Most of the time the TV company's just turn the sound down so not to put Celtic in a bad light | | | |
| Stokes and McClean on 15:28 - Nov 11 with 3243 views | paulparker |
| Stokes and McClean on 15:20 - Nov 11 by BrianMcCarthy |
"as for Mclean its no secret he never wears a poppy and his loyalties lie with supporting of the IRA"
Paul, the first part is true, the second isn't according to his recent letter.
I don't wear a poppy, though I was born in England, have loads of English friends including you lovely lot, and I detest the IRA.
Post hoc ergo something or other... |
Just out of interest Brian why do you choose not to wear one ?
you may be right about Mclean and I may have jumped the Gun about his political views
I stand by what I feel about Celtic though | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Stokes and McClean on 15:30 - Nov 11 with 3225 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Stokes and McClean on 15:24 - Nov 11 by kensalriser |
Entirely his prerogative and I respect his view. I've not worn a poppy for years, albeit for different reasons (I just don't feel the need). Non-story IMO.
Disrupting the minute's silence is something different - plain bad manners. |
Agree about interrupting the minute's silence. If I remember rightly, last year some Celtic fans chose the minute's silence as an opportunity to make a point about the poppy on their shirts and the decision being taken without consultation. Poor form. Dreadful form. Talk to the club by all means, try to get your point across by all means, but once the decision's taken and the minute's silence is about to commence, it's a time for humility and respect. | |
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| Stokes and McClean on 15:39 - Nov 11 with 3197 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Stokes and McClean on 15:28 - Nov 11 by paulparker |
Just out of interest Brian why do you choose not to wear one ?
you may be right about Mclean and I may have jumped the Gun about his political views
I stand by what I feel about Celtic though |
I agree with you the Celtic fans, Paul. No call for it.
As for why I don't wear a poppy, I'm a pacifist. I've worn a white one in the past but as to why I'm not in favour of the red ones, if you dn't mind I dug up my reply when I was asked the same thing last year:-
"I'll have a go at answering that honestly, as long as everyone takes me at my word that I'm genuinely respectful of those who lost their lives.
I like the idea of honouring the war dead, and would wear a red poppy if I felt confident that it educated kids about the utter futility of war, if the day was a day about pacifism and education about the real reasons that young, often working-class, men and women are hauled from their loved ones and forced to die and to kill.
Instead what I fear we have occasionally is the message that soldiers are 'heroes' whose deaths have always been 'to protect freedom'. I think that argument could have been made after the two World Wars, when men and women were drafted to their deaths when the world was in real peril, but not of late when they are sent to die in illegal wars that seem to me to be more to do with redistribution of wealth from one elite to another.
I also think the 'heroes' refrain is dangerous, I think it lets off the hook war criminals in government who murder their own and others for political and economical gain, and I think there's a real danger with the way it's packaged now that more young boys and girls will enlist and die. I don't believe that soldiers are heroes but rather to be pitied as their health and very lives are taken from them before they've even begun. Continually calling them heroes as if it's an unassailable truth carries with it a danger that more will follow with heroic dreams in their heads.
That's my honest opinion, it's genuinely not meant to be disrespectful to those who went through horror that I can't possibly imagine, but it's born out of a fear that the story of their lives and deaths is being twisted to take the attention away from those that sent them to their deaths and will lead to more following them, and so the cycle of war, death and suffering can continue whenever the war criminals pick another oil-rich country to invade.
I'm aware that this is a day for Remembrance, so I hope I've been respectful in my reply to you, John."
Only my opinion, Paul. Wouldn't dream of arguing that it's better than someone else's. | |
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| Stokes and McClean on 16:00 - Nov 11 with 3114 views | paulparker |
| Stokes and McClean on 15:39 - Nov 11 by BrianMcCarthy |
I agree with you the Celtic fans, Paul. No call for it.
As for why I don't wear a poppy, I'm a pacifist. I've worn a white one in the past but as to why I'm not in favour of the red ones, if you dn't mind I dug up my reply when I was asked the same thing last year:-
"I'll have a go at answering that honestly, as long as everyone takes me at my word that I'm genuinely respectful of those who lost their lives.
I like the idea of honouring the war dead, and would wear a red poppy if I felt confident that it educated kids about the utter futility of war, if the day was a day about pacifism and education about the real reasons that young, often working-class, men and women are hauled from their loved ones and forced to die and to kill.
Instead what I fear we have occasionally is the message that soldiers are 'heroes' whose deaths have always been 'to protect freedom'. I think that argument could have been made after the two World Wars, when men and women were drafted to their deaths when the world was in real peril, but not of late when they are sent to die in illegal wars that seem to me to be more to do with redistribution of wealth from one elite to another.
I also think the 'heroes' refrain is dangerous, I think it lets off the hook war criminals in government who murder their own and others for political and economical gain, and I think there's a real danger with the way it's packaged now that more young boys and girls will enlist and die. I don't believe that soldiers are heroes but rather to be pitied as their health and very lives are taken from them before they've even begun. Continually calling them heroes as if it's an unassailable truth carries with it a danger that more will follow with heroic dreams in their heads.
That's my honest opinion, it's genuinely not meant to be disrespectful to those who went through horror that I can't possibly imagine, but it's born out of a fear that the story of their lives and deaths is being twisted to take the attention away from those that sent them to their deaths and will lead to more following them, and so the cycle of war, death and suffering can continue whenever the war criminals pick another oil-rich country to invade.
I'm aware that this is a day for Remembrance, so I hope I've been respectful in my reply to you, John."
Only my opinion, Paul. Wouldn't dream of arguing that it's better than someone else's. |
Fair Play Brian , great reply , they are Respectful views and I do understand a little of where you are coming from especially about the illegal war our troops have been sent too, I agree with your points on that 100%
if im honest I did go a while not wearing a poppy myself as I was aggrieved at how the British Legion treated my Granddad when he was sick, , he was man who fought for his country like my great grandfather in WW1 and was a member of British Legion for years , their actions disgusted me to the point that I point refused to wear one for about 2 or 3 years,
what changed for me was a moving account I read about a soldier on the Somme and his description of seeing his regiment wiped out in 5 minutes and how those lads were left to die in a field for hours , to me that's being a hero and giving the ultimate sacrifice, the least I can do is wear a poppy for a fortnight and observe a 2 minute silence for the other brave souls
anyway like you mate that's my opinion and sometimes I get on my high horse about this | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Stokes and McClean on 16:08 - Nov 11 with 3077 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Stokes and McClean on 16:00 - Nov 11 by paulparker |
Fair Play Brian , great reply , they are Respectful views and I do understand a little of where you are coming from especially about the illegal war our troops have been sent too, I agree with your points on that 100%
if im honest I did go a while not wearing a poppy myself as I was aggrieved at how the British Legion treated my Granddad when he was sick, , he was man who fought for his country like my great grandfather in WW1 and was a member of British Legion for years , their actions disgusted me to the point that I point refused to wear one for about 2 or 3 years,
what changed for me was a moving account I read about a soldier on the Somme and his description of seeing his regiment wiped out in 5 minutes and how those lads were left to die in a field for hours , to me that's being a hero and giving the ultimate sacrifice, the least I can do is wear a poppy for a fortnight and observe a 2 minute silence for the other brave souls
anyway like you mate that's my opinion and sometimes I get on my high horse about this |
Sound, Paul. Sorry to hear about your Grandad. | |
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| Stokes and McClean on 16:22 - Nov 11 with 3045 views | DWQPR |
| Stokes and McClean on 15:39 - Nov 11 by BrianMcCarthy |
I agree with you the Celtic fans, Paul. No call for it.
As for why I don't wear a poppy, I'm a pacifist. I've worn a white one in the past but as to why I'm not in favour of the red ones, if you dn't mind I dug up my reply when I was asked the same thing last year:-
"I'll have a go at answering that honestly, as long as everyone takes me at my word that I'm genuinely respectful of those who lost their lives.
I like the idea of honouring the war dead, and would wear a red poppy if I felt confident that it educated kids about the utter futility of war, if the day was a day about pacifism and education about the real reasons that young, often working-class, men and women are hauled from their loved ones and forced to die and to kill.
Instead what I fear we have occasionally is the message that soldiers are 'heroes' whose deaths have always been 'to protect freedom'. I think that argument could have been made after the two World Wars, when men and women were drafted to their deaths when the world was in real peril, but not of late when they are sent to die in illegal wars that seem to me to be more to do with redistribution of wealth from one elite to another.
I also think the 'heroes' refrain is dangerous, I think it lets off the hook war criminals in government who murder their own and others for political and economical gain, and I think there's a real danger with the way it's packaged now that more young boys and girls will enlist and die. I don't believe that soldiers are heroes but rather to be pitied as their health and very lives are taken from them before they've even begun. Continually calling them heroes as if it's an unassailable truth carries with it a danger that more will follow with heroic dreams in their heads.
That's my honest opinion, it's genuinely not meant to be disrespectful to those who went through horror that I can't possibly imagine, but it's born out of a fear that the story of their lives and deaths is being twisted to take the attention away from those that sent them to their deaths and will lead to more following them, and so the cycle of war, death and suffering can continue whenever the war criminals pick another oil-rich country to invade.
I'm aware that this is a day for Remembrance, so I hope I've been respectful in my reply to you, John."
Only my opinion, Paul. Wouldn't dream of arguing that it's better than someone else's. |
Brian that is a great argument and I think that at heart the vast majority of us have a pacifistic undertone to our characters, nobody likes war and nobody wishes to see bloodshed.
I do wear a poppy each year, I bung £20 in the collection tin for it, I am also a member of the British Legion and went to a Rememberance Service at Paddington on Sunday. Without the bravery and the ultimate sacrifice made by many of servicemen of these islands, and that includes Ireland then our freedom would not be what we enjoy now. I remember those who were brave to volunteer for the Great War, many in their teens and didn't make it to seeing their 20's. The bravery in their actions to make such sacrifices. Those who fought and died in the Second World War, a just war if ever there was one and all those who have fought and died in every conflict since, whether we agreed with the reasons, whether they agreed with the reasons when they went to fight, at the end of the day, they were just doing their job. They are not the politicians who made the decisions.
And it was great to see the Irish government represented at the Cenotaph on Sunday laying a wreath in honour of those Irish who volunteered to fight in both world wars, especially the second world war, against their nations wishes at the time, and who on their return to Ireland after the war faced decades of persecution, only recently have they received pardons. | |
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| Stokes and McClean on 16:25 - Nov 11 with 3031 views | simmo |
| Stokes and McClean on 15:39 - Nov 11 by BrianMcCarthy |
I agree with you the Celtic fans, Paul. No call for it.
As for why I don't wear a poppy, I'm a pacifist. I've worn a white one in the past but as to why I'm not in favour of the red ones, if you dn't mind I dug up my reply when I was asked the same thing last year:-
"I'll have a go at answering that honestly, as long as everyone takes me at my word that I'm genuinely respectful of those who lost their lives.
I like the idea of honouring the war dead, and would wear a red poppy if I felt confident that it educated kids about the utter futility of war, if the day was a day about pacifism and education about the real reasons that young, often working-class, men and women are hauled from their loved ones and forced to die and to kill.
Instead what I fear we have occasionally is the message that soldiers are 'heroes' whose deaths have always been 'to protect freedom'. I think that argument could have been made after the two World Wars, when men and women were drafted to their deaths when the world was in real peril, but not of late when they are sent to die in illegal wars that seem to me to be more to do with redistribution of wealth from one elite to another.
I also think the 'heroes' refrain is dangerous, I think it lets off the hook war criminals in government who murder their own and others for political and economical gain, and I think there's a real danger with the way it's packaged now that more young boys and girls will enlist and die. I don't believe that soldiers are heroes but rather to be pitied as their health and very lives are taken from them before they've even begun. Continually calling them heroes as if it's an unassailable truth carries with it a danger that more will follow with heroic dreams in their heads.
That's my honest opinion, it's genuinely not meant to be disrespectful to those who went through horror that I can't possibly imagine, but it's born out of a fear that the story of their lives and deaths is being twisted to take the attention away from those that sent them to their deaths and will lead to more following them, and so the cycle of war, death and suffering can continue whenever the war criminals pick another oil-rich country to invade.
I'm aware that this is a day for Remembrance, so I hope I've been respectful in my reply to you, John."
Only my opinion, Paul. Wouldn't dream of arguing that it's better than someone else's. |
Great response and reasoning, Brian, as usual.
We had the conversation in the office and came to a similar agreement as above. The people we remember died for the right not to have to wear the poppy, as an example. But I still think not participating at all, especially when there was no doubt players from the club he represents that went off to war and didn't come back, is a bit disrespectful. He could have opted for a different colour poppy for example, as a compromise.
I think wearing a poppy or remembering means different things to different people, maybe it's from a personal perspective with lost grandparents, etc. Maybe it's to help perpetuate the memory of those that have sacrificed themselves, so the younger generations don't forget what was lost to give us what we have - I have used this past weekend to explain to my 6 year old son why we wear poppies and have minutes silence, etc, it's important that he knows where we come from and how we got here. But I know that I associate it mainly with the 2 world wars, and that's not the official line...
The disruption of *some* of the Celtic fans is terrible though, IMO. It's like disrupting another teams anthem, completely disrespectful and intolerant. | |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| Stokes and McClean on 17:34 - Nov 11 with 2896 views | karl |
McCleans letter to Dave Whelan was well worded and I couldn't find much wrong with what he said but I think Stokes is just trouble tbh, he just about admits he is an IRA supporter and it wouldn't it wouldn't surprise me if he funded them given some events he has been reported to have been at |  | | |
| Stokes and McClean on 17:52 - Nov 11 with 2871 views | hoopstilidie |
Nobody should feel forced to wear one.
It lessens it. |  |
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| Stokes and McClean on 18:07 - Nov 11 with 2836 views | NW5Hoop |
| Stokes and McClean on 17:52 - Nov 11 by hoopstilidie |
Nobody should feel forced to wear one.
It lessens it. |
That's exactly right. I hate the printing of poppies on club shirts, and the Mail bullying everyone on TV into wearing them from late Oct.
That's not remembering the dead. That's doing something out of tokenism because you feel you are expected to. The poppy only has meaning if you choose to wear it, if you have actually taken the action to wear it. McClean, paradoxically, has shown more understanding of this by not wearing one than any of the players who've just pulled on a shirt with it printed on and not thought twice — precisely because he has actually thought about the meaning of the poppy. He understands that armies and wars kill people, and that in this case, the armies and wars have killed his people. I always feel sorry for German players in Britain who end up wearing the poppy to commemorate people who fought against their ancestors. | | | |
| Stokes and McClean on 18:07 - Nov 11 with 2832 views | Antti_Heinola |
Agree, no one should be forced to wear one. Is wearing one 'better' than donating and not wearing one? Should we have a day remembering all the doctors and nurses and firefighters who risk their lives and save other lives every day? The annual poppy debate is starting to get tiresome and a little sinister for me.
As others have said above, the RBL treated my Granddad like sh!t and he never wore one because of it. No one should take abuse for deciding not to wear one. To my mind it's an important cause that does great work, but there are also about a thousand other incredible causes out there too. |  |
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| Stokes and McClean on 20:31 - Nov 11 with 2634 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Stokes and McClean on 16:22 - Nov 11 by DWQPR |
Brian that is a great argument and I think that at heart the vast majority of us have a pacifistic undertone to our characters, nobody likes war and nobody wishes to see bloodshed.
I do wear a poppy each year, I bung £20 in the collection tin for it, I am also a member of the British Legion and went to a Rememberance Service at Paddington on Sunday. Without the bravery and the ultimate sacrifice made by many of servicemen of these islands, and that includes Ireland then our freedom would not be what we enjoy now. I remember those who were brave to volunteer for the Great War, many in their teens and didn't make it to seeing their 20's. The bravery in their actions to make such sacrifices. Those who fought and died in the Second World War, a just war if ever there was one and all those who have fought and died in every conflict since, whether we agreed with the reasons, whether they agreed with the reasons when they went to fight, at the end of the day, they were just doing their job. They are not the politicians who made the decisions.
And it was great to see the Irish government represented at the Cenotaph on Sunday laying a wreath in honour of those Irish who volunteered to fight in both world wars, especially the second world war, against their nations wishes at the time, and who on their return to Ireland after the war faced decades of persecution, only recently have they received pardons. |
Excellent post, DW
Just to clarify one point, though - those Irish soldiers who fought in World War 2 were pardoned for going AWOL from the Irish Defence Forces without permission, not for fighting in WW2. Many people ostracised Irish citizens who fought in WW2, but most didn't, and there was no official governmental line or certainly no sanction for doing so. So the pardon you speak of was solely and specifically for going AWOL for the Irish Defence Forces. | |
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| Stokes and McClean on 20:57 - Nov 11 with 2587 views | HollowayRanger |
im one of the lucky few who have managed to order one of those poppys at the tower of London
always wear one and put one on my dads grave each year |  |
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| Stokes and McClean on 21:14 - Nov 11 with 2538 views | JohnnyByrnesmullet |
| Stokes and McClean on 14:54 - Nov 11 by Rangersw12 |
Celtic fans also disrupted the mins silence but then I wouldn't expect anything different from that disgusting club
Fenian cnts the lot of them |
In a thread with some fantastic, reasoned and poignant text there's always one bigoted prick.
As an Irish catholic I take offence to your phrasing of all Celtic supporters as Fenian cnts.
I have respected the fallen, observed the silences at several games this and last weekend and today, the actions of a few idiots disrupting the silence at Pittodrie is not a true reflection of the majority of the Celtic support. May you one day not be so one eyed and narrow minded, you'll become a more rounded person if you do, the world has moved on... Let's hope you can too
RIP to all the fallen . | | | |
| Stokes and McClean on 21:43 - Nov 11 with 2477 views | Rangersw12 |
| Stokes and McClean on 21:14 - Nov 11 by JohnnyByrnesmullet |
In a thread with some fantastic, reasoned and poignant text there's always one bigoted prick.
As an Irish catholic I take offence to your phrasing of all Celtic supporters as Fenian cnts.
I have respected the fallen, observed the silences at several games this and last weekend and today, the actions of a few idiots disrupting the silence at Pittodrie is not a true reflection of the majority of the Celtic support. May you one day not be so one eyed and narrow minded, you'll become a more rounded person if you do, the world has moved on... Let's hope you can too
RIP to all the fallen . |
It's not just a minority though is it
Your pathetic club are so bigoted they won't even have a poppy on their shirt
End of the day fella I have my views about your club and your patronising post won't change that | | | |
| Stokes and McClean on 06:10 - Nov 12 with 2283 views | BrianMcCarthy |
http://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10636026_80367037
Poppy Day Australia's comment in posting this on Facebook:- "Incredible tribute to the 8 million horses, donkeys and mules that died faithfully supporting their respective armies. Faithful to the end.
We will remember them."
There follows lots of comments describing the horses as heroes, and so on. This is the sort of jingoistic nonsense that has me uneasy. I'm sure people mean well, but really??? Faithful? Supporting? They hardly made a conscious choice to support one army over another, and to be faithful to it. I'm sure the horses didn't hold political meetings. They were slaughtered. By human beings. If they weren't there'd be no need for those human beings in white in this picture to be so dressed.
Instead of co-opting them to our causes we should be ashamed. | |
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