Saints went into this game full of confidence, but before there were 60 seconds on the clock they were a goal down and within minutes the game would be over, so why did it all go wrong, the answer is a lack of leadership on the pitch, but it always has been recently.

There were some eyebrows raised when the team was announced at 11.30am, Shea Charles who had been in the top two players in the last two matches was on the bench with Will Smallbone back in the side, up front was Sekou Mara.

But as surprising as these two changes were, they were not the reason that we lost this game and lost it so heavily, the reason that we did that was because we did not have one leader on the pitch and this showed.

Stuart Armstrong and Jan Bednarek may be senior players in the squad but they are not leaders of men, this is not a criticism as they are far from alone in that trait in this squad.

How on earth did we go a goal down after only 55 seconds, especially as we had a corner in the first 30 seconds, the answer was quite simple we piled forward like a bunch of schoolkids and left no one back on the half way line.

Russell Martin will be under fire for this but I am sure that he didn't say things like " If we have a corner all pile forward and don't worry about leaving anyone back" or " Don't worry about marking anyone" never has the old adage that when a team crosses the touchline to go on the pitch the manager is powerless.

Once again there wasn't a goal conceded where we were not fount wanting, poor marking, giving the ball away, failure to hold shape and even in the final seconds of second half added time, we couldn't keep it tight and the scoreline vaguely respectable.

Yes we didn't have the luck, one goal would have been ruled out for offside at one end, where at the other it would have awarded us a penalty, but a side should make it's own luck.

We have signed some good players in recent weeks, but from what I have seen we have once again failed to sign the one key player we need, a leader at the back.

Am I surprised ? The answer has to be no, I have been saying the same thing for the last 6 years.

Throughout most of my time watching Saints there has been a crucial factor in the side and that is a leader, Lawrie McMenemy signed Alan Ball and then left the legacy of Jimmy Case for his successor Chris Nicholl.

In contrast Ian Branfoot let Case go and we floundered, in the last dozen or so seasons we had Jose Fonte and Steven Davis, but in recent times we have had no one of that ilk and we have paid the price.

Sunderland did their homework, their gameplan was clear from the first minute, defend deep and then hoof the ball forward, the fact that this worked in the first minute was a crime, the fact that it kept working throughout the game was a mortal sin.

The worry is that if Tony Mowbray worked that out and lets face it QPR employed the same tactic last week, then you can bey your bottom dollar that most of our opponents are going to do the same.

The gist of the problem is that if you are not there you can't deal with a problem, whether it is one on one chases as the ball is hoofed forward, unmarked player in our box or a player 25 yards out with time and space to tee up his shot, they all had one thing in common and that is we had lost shape and we had player standing around watching.

Adam Armstrong was Captain on Saturday, as most will know I rate Adam Armstrong, but he is not a captain, a forward should never be a captain, they play most of their game with their back to their team mates, they can't see and direct play, it has to be a central defender or midfield player or even a full back, someone who dictates play and not flying forward.

But the problem we have is where is the leader in our squad, perhaps Will Smallbone is a potential leader, hence his restoration to the team, but he isn't ready yet, this was only his 11th start for Saints, a leader has to have experience and the respect of his team mates that comes from playing games at a high level, we have no one who meets that criteria.

Flynn Downes might be a candidate, but can you have a loan player as your captain, perhaps it's Ryan Manning, but he is struggling for his own form at present and his game is too much about attacking than holding the line.

In the centre of defence I have mentioned Jan Bednarek is not that leader, Taylor Harwood-Bellis has a bit of experience but perhaps not enough due to his tender age.

Jack Stephens was appointed captain, but how much of that was because he was the nearest that Russell Martin had in his squad that fitted the bill, but in truth I can't see Jack getting much game time if we sort out things at the back.

So this result was a shock, but not a surprise, the only surprise is that as a team we didn't learn our lessons from last week and we have certainly paid the price for that.

But rant over, we can't keep harping back to the past, they say you are only as good as your last game, that is not strictly true, I think that you are only as good as your next game, this debacles is gone now, no matter how much ranting is done it changes nothing, we won't get to replay the game and rectify our mistakes.

It is what we do next that matters, all the great Saints teams got a walloping from time to time, Lawrie McMenemy wasn't immune to his teams suffering a good beating at least once in a season, nor was Chris Nicholl, Alan Ball, Gordon Strachan, Nigel Adkins, Mauricio Pochettino or Ronald Koeman, that is not an exhaustive list, just pointing out that it seems to be a rite of passage.

All of those had one thing in common though, they put it behind them and made their teams better and stronger for it and that is what Russell Martin needs to do now.

It shouldn't be difficult, it was clear to see on Saturday where we were going wrong and our opponents seem to see we don't switch on quickly in both halves and indeed at the end of both halves.

Bizarrely all but one of the goals was scored within minutes of the start of the game, either side of half time and in injury time, for most of the game we dealt with things, we just switch off at key moments.

Conceding 12 goals in just 5 games is completely unacceptable, no one can claim otherwise, but the good news is that most of the issues around this come down to concentration, we can deal with it.

This is a blow, but it is not the end of the season, we are still in 7th place we are still only 3 points off the top of the league, there is plenty to be pleased about, one game does not define a season, we have to make sure that days like these are not that often.

Photo: Action Images

aceofthebase added 13:30 - Sep 4 KWP fantastic at going forward and attacking so why don't we play him as the right winger? His rushing forward gives us a goal scoring chance but leaves his true position as right back totally exposed, and it doesn't take a football genius to take advantage of this. Play KWP as a right winger.
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Jesus_02 added 13:54 - Sep 4 @saintmark1976. Really not having a go , but I don't see Bazunu as being the problem here . Sometimes its very difficult to see what's wrong when so much is wrong , but he makes some great saves and I genuinely think it could be even worse with any of the other keepers at our disposal. I think its fine to play with possession and ambition at the back but what's not OK is two centre back that look great with the ball at their feet but cant defend a cross. Holgate was an actual nightmare. Jan has never been the aggressive ball winning defender we need and the CM that we started with had all the resistance of a wet bag. There is room in the team for Edoze, but he simply cant tackle , same with Mara , there is a time and place for him but its not with 7/8 other fearful limp excuses for footballers. And about KWP, yes he had too much of the ball , yes he tried to hard to make things happen but that was because he clearly cares and could see everyone else being totally CARP

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ItchenNorth added 13:57 - Sep 4 Team selection was wrong. Shea Charles should have started at CB. Holgate should not have walked into our starting 11 as he's not ready yet. An Everton fan told me he's a disaster at CB (ok at right back) and is sloppy with the ball and will be rash and dive in........ and look what happened! For me Haywood-Bellis has to start next time out. He's a winner with Burnley and England. KWP is a worry. He's good going forward but terrible in tracking back. Look at the first goal. He was jogging back and that left Endozie exposed. It is though Martins system, as we see this on Mannings side as well, but at least he tries to cover in and his positioning is generally better.

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onetowatch added 13:59 - Sep 4 Agrella, you were either not at the game, or if you were, you must have been the reason the sniffer dogs were there...ýou stated ''By the time any of his attacking runs were made we were 3 or 4 down.'' From early doors, after going down so early KWP seemed to be the only player that realised that....2 of our Geordie friends joined us at the game and both commented that he was our 'most likely to' threat.....he was right to push forward - he had 2 holding CM behind him and supposedly 3 other defenders. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but getting the facts right do help to provide some rational....

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Crispinmumbles added 14:04 - Sep 4 We were well beaten. We weren't good enough and we were possibly overconfident - none of our players came out of this game with any credit. However, we didn't lose 9 - 0. The players were poor but didn't down tools and we currently sit 7th with 10 points from five games - I believe that Burnley were in exactly the same position last season. Yet here we go again, people losing the plot, completely over the top criticism of the players and manager, the fans who travelled and were still singing in added on time at the end of the match have my full respect. The reactionistic, near jerk, panicking gibberers who are flooding social media platforms with their criticism - even calling for Martin to be sacked - are an embarrasment. I am really enjoying being back in a proper FOOTBALL league and I predicted at the start of the season mid-table or possibly squeaking the play-offs would be about right for this season, given the outgoings and limited investment. This also is not a problem to me, we have signed some very good players for this level and I would rather see us develop into a sustainable side that played good football than see more fortunes squandered on players who really aren't good enough or motivated enough. How do you motivate a 22 year-old millionaire into really trying to do anything apart from party and have a good time?

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onetowatch added 14:04 - Sep 4 Agrella, you were clearly either not at the game or were the reason the sniffer dogs were in attendance....you state "By the time any of his attacking runs were made we were 3 or 4 down. " From going down early doors he was making runs forward and getting into attacking positions....more than anyone else managed. We were losing, he had 2 holding CMs behind him, plus, supposedly 3 other defenders, he was perfectly right to make the decision to try and create something because we had 6 players out there who wee only passing back or sidewards....Everyones'entitled to an opinion but at least add some rational by getting the facts right...

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onetowatch added 14:12 - Sep 4 Agrella, you were either not at the game or the reason the sniffer dogs were there....he didn't make a run forward until we were 3 or 4 down?????? What were you watching??? We were losing from very early. He had 2 holding CMs behind him and supposedly 3 other defenders....he was right to make those attacking runs...there were 6 players out there, who only made backward or sideward passes...KWP had to try and make something happen...

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IanRC added 14:35 - Sep 4 Looks like Djenepo may be off too, shocking waste. Could do worse than drop Manning, move KWP across and play him at RB. Someone is having a laugh at a £3million price tag.
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Farlow added 15:18 - Sep 4 fSaint mark i wish we had Campell Forsyth in goal now he would,nt do any worse. Sad to hear Djeneppo looks like going.Its a damming indictment on our dreadful coaches that they could not harness his undoubted talent,surely he,d be better than Manning
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PezzaSaint added 17:40 - Sep 4 A simple fact - the three teams from last season’s Championship with the lowest goals conceded were the 3 clubs that were promoted. If we don’t sort this defence out soon we’ve got no chance. End of!!!!!!!!
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pintsizedsaint added 18:01 - Sep 4 Truth is, this was perhaps down to a bit of arrogance and believing the hype. It seems we thought Sunderland would sit back (at home?!). Putting Mara in was a major mistake, but the biggest blunder was throwing Mason Holgate in when he’s barely played (let alone barely knows his teammates) particularly as this meant omitting Shea Charles, who must be rightly aggrieved. Holgate too (thrown under bus there). Terrible defending for the goals in the main, although second goal was an awful deflection. Yet Bazunu once again looked like rabbit in headlights. Nick spot on about lack of defensive leadership. Holgate more than likely to give that edge, but jeez he needs a bit of time! Overall we cannot keep shipping goals. Let’s file this one under “manager shocker” and move on. Great thing about the championship is that anybody can beat anyone on the day. Hopefully it’s a wake up call for the next two very tough games we have.

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halftimeorange added 19:15 - Sep 4 Personally I think RM made more mistakes in setting the side up than Ralph did in his entire time with Saints. Only a chancer would have left Shea Charles on the bench, started Adam Armstrong as captain, played a seriously rusty Mason Holgate, put Mara on the wing and then claim post-match that he gave us everything (Mara's everything is evidently not enough), keep Manning in the team, played Downes and Smallbone together but leave the more attacking Alcaraz on the bench and claim post-match that "I may have picked the wrong team and this won't happen again". I'm afraid it most likely will do and RM will prove to be every bit as disliked as Jones quickly was. This was the worst Saints performance I've ever seen and that includes the nine-goal batterings.

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SanMarco added 21:16 - Sep 4 I agree with Nick's general point about leadership on the pitch but the biggest lack of leadership on Saturday came from RM. Team selection and then the casual attitude to defending that arrogantly assumed we would pass the ball to death and Sunderland would sit back looking bewildered. The first thing that a mate of mine (who knows this division well ) said when he heard the RM rumours a few months ago was "don't take him - you will let in too many goals". It seems trendy amongst some younger coaches to think that defending is an old-fashioned concept. Surely the debate about KWP and Manning is that their primary role is supposed to be as FULL BACKS. By all means play KWP on the wing or in midfield but we need someone on the right side whose job it is to DEFEND.

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Santos added 07:19 - Sep 5 Firstly and I think it came from RM himself a comment about being the first time in his managerial career of actually having a proper squad to pick from. Well the staring 11 showed a manager trying to be nice rather than decisive, this is going to have to change and quickly. Following on from above I thought we were supposed to be thinning the squad?? Just gone from excessive to bloated. This possession stuff is fine if there is plenty of off the ball quick movement. Completely static everyone currently!!! Countless times the player with the ball has no options hence slow play. Holgate = Maitland Niles (although I’ll give him a chance to prove me wrong) Manning getting worse every week. How many fingers and toes did RM have crossed when saying Perraud wasn’t the right fit for the style of football! A lot to sort these next few weeks.

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LoisDeem added 09:31 - Sep 5 Saints were beaten in all departments in speed of thought and deed. All that from a round the clock and grizzled old stager and his willing and enthusiastic proteges. Not by a fresh faced student of the game who refuses to adapt or change -I do hope I am wrong. Deja vu -is this the third time in a year or so? I believe we do have a decent squad, but the progression of that last game showed few signs of any form of rallying to our cause. Exclusive reliance on the 'tipi tapi' method makes us sitting ducks and will only propel us further on our previous trajectory. I thought we were beginning to exorcise our surrender mentality by replying in kind with goals, but it's worrying reappearance means it could still be endemic. Football's simple, we do need to shore up the defence, get a more active and fluid, non porous midfield and not have our valuable goal potential spending too much time reposing (rotting) on bench or sick beds. Like the players Martin needs to respond much more quickly before this continues as a malaise, and the rot sets in again.

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Staycalm added 10:29 - Sep 5 Thought that the post by DellBoyWally, after the QPR game, was an excellent 'reality check', putting into context what had been achieved so far, the close calls, the glaring weaknesses, the tactical question marks etc etc. Any 'honeymoon period' for Martin is now well and truly over, to state the bl**ding obvious!!
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Monksway added 12:44 - Sep 6 It was an awful performance and a result that had been coming sadly. But at the end of the window we've lost the inevitable departures for good transfer fees. We've shifter and are still shifting some Deadwood and we are left with a really strong squad. Only Leicester and maybe Leeds have a comparable squad. It's a really good mix of experience and potential and we have to accept that Stephens, Bednarek, KWP, Downes, Frazer, Adams and the Armstrongs must provide the leadership and enable Harwood-Bellis, Charles, Smallbone, Alacaraz, Edozie and Sulemana to realise their potential. It's now down to RM to turn this squad into a team that consistent ly wins matches regardless of how much possession they have or don't have. There can be no excuses we have to finish in the top four minimum but RM must be given the year not just a few games.

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SaintPaulVW added 13:19 - Sep 6 The high press came into fashion to combat tiki taka football. If you are going to pass a lot you need to be able to be highly accurate passers and guard against rapid interceptions, challenges and turnovers. The test now is have we learned anything. A bad result was always on the cards at some point. RM's style has great merit but if adaptions can't be made and this result is repeated, then the pressure is going to mount. RM adapted mid season last year and Swansea's results greatly improved, so he isn't totally dogmatic. COYR

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Monksway added 19:08 - Sep 6 If we are going to play KWP and Manning then perhaps it's three at the back with HB, Charles and Stephens (when fit). Smallbone and Downes in midfield and Arma, Alcaraz and Che up front. RM has a lot of options so he needs to really start working on his formation and starting 11.
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