| Possession can do one? 08:19 - Sep 3 with 4768 views | Hoopsie |
All 8 wins out of the 9 wins this weekend home or away in the championship are by teams having less possessions than their opponents
Bristol City (2-1 away to Swansea) - 39% (4 shots on target to 4)
Sunderland (5-0 home to Southampton) - 31% (9-2)
Huddersfield (2-1 away to WBA) - 38% (4-5)
Preston (2-0 away to Stoke) - 30% (3-1)
Rotherham (2-1 home to Norwich) - 38% (3-5)
Plymouth (3-0 home to Blackburn) - 42% (9-4)
Hull (1-0 away to Leicester) - 35% (4-1)
AND
QPR (2-0 away to Middlesbrough) - 39% (3-9)
Ipswich only team that won with more possession 3-2 v Cardiff at home (55% 7-5 shots)
Possession can do one? It is not just us if you wonder having less possessions in matches. We certainly are not lucky to win. We played well and are competitive. Statistics is a funny game.
It is what you do to the football when you have it that counts |  |
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| Possession can do one? on 08:22 - Sep 3 with 3972 views | connell10 |
Nail on head mate and good post.
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| Possession can do one? on 08:45 - Sep 3 with 3813 views | stevec |
Good post. Looking down those games there were a considerable number of upsets which might explain a fair bit of that.
That said, possession is only as good as your forward line and in this league there’s quite a shortage of good forward lines. |  | | |
| Possession can do one? on 08:57 - Sep 3 with 3778 views | loftboy |
There is and always has been only one statistic that counts! |  |
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| Possession can do one? on 08:58 - Sep 3 with 3772 views | ngbqpr |
Yesterday was the first Rs game I've seen live this season.
Firstly, it definitely wasn't hoofball; secondly, it didn't feel like 'just' 39% possession - it certainly wasn't a 'sit deep and counter when we can' performance imho. |  |
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| Possession can do one? on 09:04 - Sep 3 with 3720 views | Lblock |
Two centre backs and a keeper passing the ball endlessly back and fro is possession
Is it progressive football or entertainment?
No - but neither is loading the cannons and hitting the channels endlessly
The stats say a draw wouldn’t have been a shock
The one that matters says three points thank you very much.
Some of our football in the Boro half was very good.
We will have days where it doesn’t come off and we get done as per Ipswich and Saints I suppose |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Possession can do one? on 09:18 - Sep 3 with 3676 views | connell10 |
| Possession can do one? on 09:04 - Sep 3 by Lblock |
Two centre backs and a keeper passing the ball endlessly back and fro is possession
Is it progressive football or entertainment?
No - but neither is loading the cannons and hitting the channels endlessly
The stats say a draw wouldn’t have been a shock
The one that matters says three points thank you very much.
Some of our football in the Boro half was very good.
We will have days where it doesn’t come off and we get done as per Ipswich and Saints I suppose |
Football can be a hybrid of both styles. | |
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| Possession can do one? on 09:21 - Sep 3 with 3663 views | queensparker |
Makes sense, if every single team is going to slavishly try and copy Pep the better coaches will figure out a way to counter it. Leicester won the league doing it. The beauty of football it never stands still.
About time as well, the obsession with possession football bores me rigid |  | | |
| Possession can do one? on 09:27 - Sep 3 with 3637 views | ParkRoyalR |
Brilliant post, it would be interesting to know if these results with lower possession percentages is a one-off or if there is a pattern in the Championship where most defenders (and goalkeepers) are just not technically good enough to play out from the back effectively.
MOTD highlighted last night how Burnley struggled playing out from the back and possession football v spurs yesterday, whereas they dominated the Championship with a similar style last season, all about levels.
Also interesting to see Stats about 'breaking the line' as BOS was probably last player who consistently got behind his man and to the bye-line, altho Smyth has a better touch and end product than BOS which we are currently seeing. |  | | |
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| Possession can do one? on 09:32 - Sep 3 with 3595 views | Hayesender |
It's what you do with it that counts. At least that's what I've always told the missus |  |
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| Possession can do one? on 09:37 - Sep 3 with 3573 views | Hastings_Hoops |
Teams earn more possession when they pissball around at the back between the keeper and defenders as opposition teams are happy to let them do so.
When it’s premier league players doing the pissballing, mistakes don’t often happen. When it’s championship players doings so, mistakes inevitably happen and it costs points.
It’s a fools errand converting premier tactics to championship quality football. |  | | |
| Possession can do one? on 10:10 - Sep 3 with 3463 views | ChrisNW6 |
I remember us keeping the ball for a 3min period at home under Warbs and had around 100 passes with no end threat on goal. Great to watch but it skewed the stats massively and I think teams found us out at times. | | | |
| Possession can do one? on 10:33 - Sep 3 with 3375 views | qprd |
Why did Ipswich have more possession than oppo? Probably Because they were down 2-0 and prob spent the entire second half chasing the game
The reason a losing team often has more possession is bc they need to score a goal to get a result. therefore they retain the ball longer. The team that’s winning is comfortable playing out of possession and counterattacking as the oppo brings men further up the pitch. Man City is an exception bc they’re so good at possession that they can use possession as a form of defense
At the end of the day, possession does not inherently imply a certain outcome, though teams that possess the ball more prob get better results on aggregate- but that’s bc The teams that possess the ball more tend to just have better players and better players tend to get better results… | | | |
| Possession can do one? on 10:42 - Sep 3 with 3346 views | BAWHoops |
Starkest example was Sunderland v Saints.
Saints would pass the ball for ages going nowhere, before a Sunderland player would crunch into them and they'd move the ball upfield quickly and with purpose.
Was hilarious to watch time and time again |  |
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| Possession can do one? on 10:48 - Sep 3 with 3332 views | bosh67 |
| Possession can do one? on 10:42 - Sep 3 by BAWHoops |
Starkest example was Sunderland v Saints.
Saints would pass the ball for ages going nowhere, before a Sunderland player would crunch into them and they'd move the ball upfield quickly and with purpose.
Was hilarious to watch time and time again |
I remember years ago when Adel was here and Swansea came to us and passed us to death. We won 4-0. Just stole the ball off them. |  |
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| Possession can do one? on 12:07 - Sep 3 with 3220 views | safcinpeace |
| Possession can do one? on 10:42 - Sep 3 by BAWHoops |
Starkest example was Sunderland v Saints.
Saints would pass the ball for ages going nowhere, before a Sunderland player would crunch into them and they'd move the ball upfield quickly and with purpose.
Was hilarious to watch time and time again |
Yes it was a pleasure to watch.
The new obsession seems to be ‘
Transition’. That is where teams can punish possession based teams.
Yesterday Southampton were set up to keep the ball and that seemed to get them into tight little groups, as soon as we got the ball we had players in space and two or three passes and we were away running at a defence which was totally out of position.
By the end we were just having fun. The fifth was a laugh, a 19 year old doing three spins in their half before putting in a cross for a 16 year old to score. It was schoolboy stuff. | | | |
| Possession can do one? on 12:15 - Sep 3 with 3189 views | Boston |
| Possession can do one? on 09:32 - Sep 3 by Hayesender |
It's what you do with it that counts. At least that's what I've always told the missus |
She an expert on long balls? | |
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| Possession can do one? on 12:53 - Sep 3 with 3076 views | Antti_Heinola |
What a great thread.
As someone said above, it's fascinating how the game evolves. When I grew up, people barely talked about possession, then as Eng;and was left behind by other nations, we began to realise how our system of playing, while effective at times, wasn't producing the players with the technique to really compete at the elite level.
Best example of this was England under Graham Taylor. I remember MOTD showing about 12 of our kick-offs and every single one was the same. Pass forward one revolution, knock it back, then the ball is punted out for a throw in the opposition's half, with zero attempt to find our own players. This was obviously what had brought Taylor success at club level (although, of course, it could never match up to, say, the great Liverpool side of the 80s), but at international level it was a joke. Give the other team the ball cheaply, and you might not see it again for 5 minutes.
So, things changed. Keeping the ball became more important, epitomised by Guardiola for Barca and the great Spain team of 15 years ago. They were so good, however, that in an effort to contain them, teams just put everyone behind the ball and squeezed space and gave up on attacking. Spain got accused of being boring, but in fact, there was little else they could do.
This brought more innovation: Mourinho at times has seen possession as a liability. If you have possession, you can lose it, and be caught on the break. So to lessen that risk, don't try to keep the ball for too long. That's a bit perverse, but to a degree it worked for him.
Now, as someone said above, the innovation is in transitions, in being able to leap forward after a turnover of play. Commit players forward on the break and try to out-number the opposition defence. This as well has risks.
You could also say a lot of those stats at the top are in reality pretty close. 60-40 is not a gulf. And there's an excellent post there about how if a team is losing they will probably have more possession as, because of the current emphasis on counter attacks, teams are happy to let the opposition have the ball and pick their moments. You can't do that so much if you're losing.
I'd also say that if you leave every game of the season with about 20% of the ball - you will be relegated. There's definitely a balance there! |  |
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| Possession can do one? on 13:10 - Sep 3 with 3028 views | ManinBlack |
Didn't Watford play the ball around their own half yesterday keeping possession before one of their players passed the ball back into his net? Too much consideration these days on who has more possession deserves to win. The implication by the Itv chap commentating on our game yesterday was Middlesbrough had more chances so therefore didn't deserve to lose. |  | | |
| Possession can do one? on 13:21 - Sep 3 with 2971 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Possession can do one? on 12:53 - Sep 3 by Antti_Heinola |
What a great thread.
As someone said above, it's fascinating how the game evolves. When I grew up, people barely talked about possession, then as Eng;and was left behind by other nations, we began to realise how our system of playing, while effective at times, wasn't producing the players with the technique to really compete at the elite level.
Best example of this was England under Graham Taylor. I remember MOTD showing about 12 of our kick-offs and every single one was the same. Pass forward one revolution, knock it back, then the ball is punted out for a throw in the opposition's half, with zero attempt to find our own players. This was obviously what had brought Taylor success at club level (although, of course, it could never match up to, say, the great Liverpool side of the 80s), but at international level it was a joke. Give the other team the ball cheaply, and you might not see it again for 5 minutes.
So, things changed. Keeping the ball became more important, epitomised by Guardiola for Barca and the great Spain team of 15 years ago. They were so good, however, that in an effort to contain them, teams just put everyone behind the ball and squeezed space and gave up on attacking. Spain got accused of being boring, but in fact, there was little else they could do.
This brought more innovation: Mourinho at times has seen possession as a liability. If you have possession, you can lose it, and be caught on the break. So to lessen that risk, don't try to keep the ball for too long. That's a bit perverse, but to a degree it worked for him.
Now, as someone said above, the innovation is in transitions, in being able to leap forward after a turnover of play. Commit players forward on the break and try to out-number the opposition defence. This as well has risks.
You could also say a lot of those stats at the top are in reality pretty close. 60-40 is not a gulf. And there's an excellent post there about how if a team is losing they will probably have more possession as, because of the current emphasis on counter attacks, teams are happy to let the opposition have the ball and pick their moments. You can't do that so much if you're losing.
I'd also say that if you leave every game of the season with about 20% of the ball - you will be relegated. There's definitely a balance there! |
Cracking post.
Good discussion, too. Antti's last paragraph sums it up nicely for me.
As for Rangers, we're playing consistently better since we stopped treating the ball like it had dogshit on it. We've got a nice balance now. Everything in moderation, inclusing moderation. We're not The Discaiples of Russell Martin, but we're set up to make use of the skills we have - pace, movement, passing. We go short in possession, or we go long on occasion but generally the aim is to start an attack with those long balls, not just to clear the lines or to aim for position.
Yesterday, Colback managed 33/35 in passing and Dozzell was at 18/21. Not Xavi and Iniesta at Barca but certainly not Iroegbunam at Burnley. We didn't strangle the game to death but we did treat the ball as our friend, and it showed.
And, more importantly, it worked. |  |
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| Possession can do one? on 13:22 - Sep 3 with 2964 views | QPRSteve |
| Possession can do one? on 13:10 - Sep 3 by ManinBlack |
Didn't Watford play the ball around their own half yesterday keeping possession before one of their players passed the ball back into his net? Too much consideration these days on who has more possession deserves to win. The implication by the Itv chap commentating on our game yesterday was Middlesbrough had more chances so therefore didn't deserve to lose. |
I'm getting a bit tired of the media's treatment of us. Yesterday and last week at Southampton you would think we were only there to make up the numbers. | | | |
| Possession can do one? on 13:29 - Sep 3 with 2934 views | DejR_vu |
| Possession can do one? on 13:21 - Sep 3 by BrianMcCarthy |
Cracking post.
Good discussion, too. Antti's last paragraph sums it up nicely for me.
As for Rangers, we're playing consistently better since we stopped treating the ball like it had dogshit on it. We've got a nice balance now. Everything in moderation, inclusing moderation. We're not The Discaiples of Russell Martin, but we're set up to make use of the skills we have - pace, movement, passing. We go short in possession, or we go long on occasion but generally the aim is to start an attack with those long balls, not just to clear the lines or to aim for position.
Yesterday, Colback managed 33/35 in passing and Dozzell was at 18/21. Not Xavi and Iniesta at Barca but certainly not Iroegbunam at Burnley. We didn't strangle the game to death but we did treat the ball as our friend, and it showed.
And, more importantly, it worked. |
“we’re playing consistently better since we stopped treating the ball like it had dogshit on it”. 😂 Beautifully put | |
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| Possession can do one? on 13:48 - Sep 3 with 2868 views | R_from_afar |
| Possession can do one? on 09:18 - Sep 3 by connell10 |
Football can be a hybrid of both styles. |
Precisely, and the best teams can play in more than one way.
When Real Madrid were at their height a few years ago - they're still very good, of course - they could pass the opposition off the park, or, in the blink of an eye, get it from their own 'keeper to the back of the opponent's goal with just three touches. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Possession can do one? on 14:12 - Sep 3 with 2825 views | ManinBlack |
| Possession can do one? on 13:22 - Sep 3 by QPRSteve |
I'm getting a bit tired of the media's treatment of us. Yesterday and last week at Southampton you would think we were only there to make up the numbers. |
That does seem to be the case. In a two minutes highlights package there was no need to point out to the viewers that Boro had more chances or we created limited opportunities. All designed to make people think Boro bossed the game and our win was fortunate. | | | |
| Possession can do one? on 14:57 - Sep 3 with 2770 views | nix |
| Possession can do one? on 14:12 - Sep 3 by ManinBlack |
That does seem to be the case. In a two minutes highlights package there was no need to point out to the viewers that Boro had more chances or we created limited opportunities. All designed to make people think Boro bossed the game and our win was fortunate. |
In a way though it’s better to fly under the radar a bit. When we had that run under Warburton and we kept being on TV I got the impression everyone wanted to beat us and they spent a lot of time leaning how to nullify us. Look out Luton last season, they didn’t get all the razzmatazz and other teams didn’t take them too seriously until they ended up in the play offs and winning. Now I’m not saying we’ll do a Luton but there can be advantages in being lower profile.
Although I agree it’s really annoying when they talk about the opposition more and we actually won! [Post edited 3 Sep 2023 14:58]
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| Possession can do one? on 14:57 - Sep 3 with 2769 views | enfieldargh |
| Possession can do one? on 13:29 - Sep 3 by DejR_vu |
“we’re playing consistently better since we stopped treating the ball like it had dogshit on it”. 😂 Beautifully put |
our players are also more efficient with the ball.
Yes there are a few passes that go astray however each player appears to have an objective for the next pass which isnt:-
As mentioned its covered in doggie doo
Dickie to Dunne to dickie to keeper(we had several) to Barbet long diagonal boring and ineffective.
I love Colback getting the ball facing our keeper then either quick lay off or turning to face to opposition(shock horror).
I love our team play ATM and the players are embracing it with confidence.
Lets hope we can build on post Watford, if PNE can rattle a few cages then so can we. |  |
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