| Winning v Asset development... 11:45 - Oct 25 with 8808 views | davman |
A no brainer from me, but all very short termist.
Balogun > Dickie and Tim > Amos, but any chance of big money moves evaporating when they are not playing.
I want to win the league, but I know that the club needs to get a decent wedge for Dickie when he moves on and this may end up in him drifting away in January or at the end of the season.
Got to play the best team no matter what though, surely? |  |
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| Winning v Asset development... on 18:18 - Oct 25 with 2279 views | terryb |
| Winning v Asset development... on 17:26 - Oct 25 by stevec |
The only way we get any decent money is if they sell into the Premier.
So that discounts Amos immediately and much as I like Dickie, his best hope of a place in a Premier League squad is via us. |
"The only way we get any decent money is if they sell into the Premier."
I can't imagine any of these three being on the radar of Premier clubs. I wouldn't think that Sam Field is either, but he must be a lot closer. |  | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 18:45 - Oct 25 with 2232 views | dmm |
| Winning v Asset development... on 13:38 - Oct 25 by Landshark |
Is there any news on the injury to Dunne? |
It's a knee injury. He's supposed to be available for the Norwich game. |  | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 18:50 - Oct 25 with 2220 views | PinnerPaul |
| Winning v Asset development... on 15:15 - Oct 25 by kensalriser |
Although Dickie did do 43 games season before last... |
Fair enough! | | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 19:44 - Oct 25 with 2139 views | queensparker |
Even in the last two years our model of develop and sell has come under threat, as the only people buying are Prem clubs these days, and much as I like them no Prem club is going to buy Dickie, Dunne, Amos or Dozzell. Willock yes, Chair and Dieng maybe. Someone would take a punt on Dykes as well from the Champ or Scotland.
If we’ve got a chance to get promoted we’ve got to take it, it renders all this a moot point (and winning is the whole point of football isn’t it?) [Post edited 25 Oct 2022 19:47]
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| Winning v Asset development... on 19:57 - Oct 25 with 2114 views | Northernr |
| Winning v Asset development... on 19:44 - Oct 25 by queensparker |
Even in the last two years our model of develop and sell has come under threat, as the only people buying are Prem clubs these days, and much as I like them no Prem club is going to buy Dickie, Dunne, Amos or Dozzell. Willock yes, Chair and Dieng maybe. Someone would take a punt on Dykes as well from the Champ or Scotland.
If we’ve got a chance to get promoted we’ve got to take it, it renders all this a moot point (and winning is the whole point of football isn’t it?) [Post edited 25 Oct 2022 19:47]
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True to a v large extent as I’ve written about a few times recently and Hoos said at the forum. But…
If Norwich, Watford, Sheff Utd continue on their current trajectory, they’ll absolutely do what Bournemouth did in the last week of January. You could easily get decent money for Dickie in that sort of a panic. |  | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 20:08 - Oct 25 with 2080 views | davman |
| Winning v Asset development... on 19:57 - Oct 25 by Northernr |
True to a v large extent as I’ve written about a few times recently and Hoos said at the forum. But…
If Norwich, Watford, Sheff Utd continue on their current trajectory, they’ll absolutely do what Bournemouth did in the last week of January. You could easily get decent money for Dickie in that sort of a panic. |
That would be the ultimate test of our boards resolve if it were to happen and they were a direct competitor for promotion - would we sell to them? Probably not, but if the money was right...?
I am with queensparker I think - development can wait as that model relies on a once in a generational talent coming through every four years or so - it is simply unsustainable. | |
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| Winning v Asset development... on 21:04 - Oct 25 with 2039 views | StreathamRanger |
I'm not sure I've seen this argument put forward before:
What if playing alongside Balogun is helping the development of JCS? JCS is also a saleable asset just like Dickie and Dunne. Perhaps playing alongside Balogun is adding to his value by what he's learning playing alongside such an experienced player. You take Balogun out and the whole defence looks less assured which then leads to a reduction in the transfer value of whoever we have playing CB.
Might be a load of rubbish but there are some players who make others around them look good and maybe Balogun is one of those. Dunne's looked good when he's played alongside him. Better then he looks when he's playing with Dickie. The issue for Dickie is that he can't play on the left in the way Dunne has learnt to even though he's not left footed. | | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 21:11 - Oct 25 with 2024 views | terryb |
| Winning v Asset development... on 21:04 - Oct 25 by StreathamRanger |
I'm not sure I've seen this argument put forward before:
What if playing alongside Balogun is helping the development of JCS? JCS is also a saleable asset just like Dickie and Dunne. Perhaps playing alongside Balogun is adding to his value by what he's learning playing alongside such an experienced player. You take Balogun out and the whole defence looks less assured which then leads to a reduction in the transfer value of whoever we have playing CB.
Might be a load of rubbish but there are some players who make others around them look good and maybe Balogun is one of those. Dunne's looked good when he's played alongside him. Better then he looks when he's playing with Dickie. The issue for Dickie is that he can't play on the left in the way Dunne has learnt to even though he's not left footed. |
It's an interesting question Streatham.
Could it be that JCS would already have a higher valuation than Dickie & Dunne? Also that he is more likely to raise interest from Premier clubs? | | | |
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| Winning v Asset development... on 21:23 - Oct 25 with 2014 views | StreathamRanger |
| Winning v Asset development... on 21:11 - Oct 25 by terryb |
It's an interesting question Streatham.
Could it be that JCS would already have a higher valuation than Dickie & Dunne? Also that he is more likely to raise interest from Premier clubs? |
JCS looks a little more premier league ready than Dickie or Dunne. Maybe it's the left foot. Everyone loves a left footed CB. FWIW I think Dickie has found his level as a very good Championship CB but I just can't see him cutting it at the next level up. Those goals at the start of last season and the runs forward breaking the lines got us all a bit over excited but he's better in a 3 and back 3s aren't as fashionable these days. | | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 21:27 - Oct 25 with 2011 views | StreathamRanger |
We might get a few quid for Sam Field assuming he's still got a couple of years on his contract. His excellent recent run of form has coincided with Balogun playing most games. Could be purely coincidental. | | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 22:43 - Oct 25 with 1957 views | davman |
| Winning v Asset development... on 21:23 - Oct 25 by StreathamRanger |
JCS looks a little more premier league ready than Dickie or Dunne. Maybe it's the left foot. Everyone loves a left footed CB. FWIW I think Dickie has found his level as a very good Championship CB but I just can't see him cutting it at the next level up. Those goals at the start of last season and the runs forward breaking the lines got us all a bit over excited but he's better in a 3 and back 3s aren't as fashionable these days. |
This is the real quandary here - Leon and JCS appear to be our best two CBs from what I have seen over the last two seasons. Don't get me wrong, Dickie and Dunne are both good, but not as good from what I have seen. JCS is getting on with things quietly - not seen many big shouts for him, but he is absolutely class on the ball and has Dunne's ability to defend.
If we had that strength in depth in every position, we'd absolutely pss this league... | |
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| Winning v Asset development... on 23:11 - Oct 25 with 1939 views | DavieQPR |
We seem to miss Dunne against 'long ball' teams like Luton and Wigan because he commands the air a bit better than JCS. |  | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 00:15 - Oct 26 with 1906 views | SydneyRs |
Balogun has been a revelation for me and I was very sceptical of the signing originally.
Given where we are now and the influence of his performances and leadership, he has to play when fit. Chances are he'll not be available for every game so Dickie and Dunne will get opportunities.
We've been lucky to get such a good player in for nothing, only we could try and turn this into a negative! | | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 10:04 - Oct 27 with 1740 views | 89_50 |
This has been a good thread to read.
To throw in my two cents, I really like Dickie and really like Dunne. As has been said, while technically competent, Dickie has the odd howler in his locker and seems to be affected by confidence more than Dunne. I'm not sure if he's found his ceiling, but I don't really subscribe to the idea that Dickie is PL level.
As Norf says, selling him to one of the monied Champ teams in a Jan trolley dash always remains an option, but given alternatives in this league would they bother with Dickie - I wouldn't think so.
JCS is the real asset here. I've mentioned in another thread how impressive he looks (and it's not just because he's left-footed). He has the full attributes to mix it in the PL at a lower third team, staying injury-free is his only issue. I'd say in terms of market worth, at the end of this season he'd likely be more valuable than Dickie or Dunne. |  | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 10:18 - Oct 27 with 1712 views | PunteR |
| Winning v Asset development... on 15:11 - Oct 25 by Northernr |
Everything's fine and brilliant atm, because we're winning. Balogun has certainly been a big part of that, I mean look at the defensive record with and without him, look at the goals against column first 10 games v second 10. If we get promoted then all bets are off money wise, problem solved, and at this point, in October, we look like we've got half a chance, and that's been the case really only since he came into the team.
Interesting to see where opinion goes if we stop winning, if we don't go up, if he starts struggling with the Champ fixture schedule at his age etc. Because if we get to next summer still a Championship team then we've potentially wasted a year of development of Dunne and/or Dickie (a la Bright) who will both be nearer the end of their deals and one would think pretty pissd off with it all, Balogun will be 35 in June, Beale might be up and away. There are some similarities there to what Warbs was doing with favs like Wallace and Moses.
So atm it looks like a great move, and if we go up then it'll be a masterstroke, and he'll go down as a Hill/Derry type in history as that final, experienced piece the manager knew would get us over the line, I'll write a big flowery end of termer on him, standing ovation, Forever R's club etc. He's obviously a fcking good player. But, if you don't go up... Fundamentally we should v, v, v seldom be picking a 34-year-old the manager knows over the players the recruitment team specifically brought here to develop, sell and ultimately get us out of the financial sht which holds us back every day.
All of that said, if Dickie and Dunne are any good, are going to fetch us some money etc, it's not a particularly great sign that at 26 and 25 they can't get in a Champ team ahead of a 34 year old...
This post has been edited by an administrator |
That last paragraph is the crucial bit for me.
Simply put you play your best team. I think where other managers have made mistakes is when they persist with experience but the player is not really justifying his place with performance.
It's competition for places and that's how most of football works isn't it.?
The younger lads need to step up. For example if Dozzel and Amos come on 2nd half and we blatantly get worse and nearly lose the 3 points they have no grounds for complaint when they struggle getting in the team. [Post edited 27 Oct 2022 10:23]
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| Winning v Asset development... on 10:42 - Oct 27 with 1659 views | traininvain |
| Winning v Asset development... on 23:11 - Oct 25 by DavieQPR |
We seem to miss Dunne against 'long ball' teams like Luton and Wigan because he commands the air a bit better than JCS. |
Dunne started vs Luton and I thought he generally struggled with the pace (he was at fault for the first goal) before going off injured at 2-0.
He was immense though alongside Balogun vs Sheff Utd’s aerial bombardment. |  | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 10:53 - Oct 27 with 1645 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Winning v Asset development... on 21:04 - Oct 25 by StreathamRanger |
I'm not sure I've seen this argument put forward before:
What if playing alongside Balogun is helping the development of JCS? JCS is also a saleable asset just like Dickie and Dunne. Perhaps playing alongside Balogun is adding to his value by what he's learning playing alongside such an experienced player. You take Balogun out and the whole defence looks less assured which then leads to a reduction in the transfer value of whoever we have playing CB.
Might be a load of rubbish but there are some players who make others around them look good and maybe Balogun is one of those. Dunne's looked good when he's played alongside him. Better then he looks when he's playing with Dickie. The issue for Dickie is that he can't play on the left in the way Dunne has learnt to even though he's not left footed. |
Great point, and not one I'd considered before.
To me, this is very simple: we need money to pass FFP, avoid fines, fire sales, wage freezes and possible relegation. Maybe £10-20m.
Winning in itself only gets us money if we get promoted.
So, Asset Development is essential to our very survival.
That meant, as far as I saw it, not signing players like Balogun with no re-sale value.
But your point above is valid and goes against that.
So now I'm undecided again. |  |
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| Winning v Asset development... on 11:32 - Oct 27 with 1608 views | NorthantsHoop |
A bit of both, agree with points on Balagun, he is proving an excellent signing and strengthened the defence. This season our defence has looked a lot stronger, helps with two fantastic attacking full backs in Laird and Paal being reliable in their positions and able to transition from defence to attack quickly. We also move the ball a lot quicker from defence to midfield. I must say that Kakay gives his all when coming on, he has also shown immense improvement. |  | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 12:17 - Oct 27 with 1556 views | headhoops |
Much as I like Dunne and Dickie all the while we are winning we stick with our best team. Same with Tim over Dozzell and Amos and Laird over Ossie. If we do go up to the premiership and then finish bottom we will still earn around £100 million. Thats around 5 Eze's and a whole lot more than we would get for Balogun, JCS, Dunne & Dickie all added together. |  |
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| Winning v Asset development... on 13:19 - Oct 27 with 1488 views | PunteR |
| Winning v Asset development... on 12:17 - Oct 27 by headhoops |
Much as I like Dunne and Dickie all the while we are winning we stick with our best team. Same with Tim over Dozzell and Amos and Laird over Ossie. If we do go up to the premiership and then finish bottom we will still earn around £100 million. Thats around 5 Eze's and a whole lot more than we would get for Balogun, JCS, Dunne & Dickie all added together. |
Yeh it's a no brainer when you look at it like that. Of course promotion is the biggest prize and should be our main objective.
Can be risky if you spend like other clubs have but as far as I know we havnt spent beyond our means and therefore less risky to be playing the likes if Balugun ahead of Dickie.
If we were sitting in 16th place this discussion would be leaning more towards playing Dickie but as we're looking good top of the table then focus should be promotion and not resale value. | |
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| Winning v Asset development... on 14:03 - Oct 27 with 1407 views | mikeyhg |
From what I can see, we have two options. Go for promotion with arguably the best squad we've had post relegation and best manager in an open league, even if it means we don't develop players in some positions. Promotion would solve any financial issues we have but of course is not guaranteed. If we miss out on promotion, we have to proper tighten the belts next year, sell more players than we usually would and probably be in a relegation fight. The other option is to play players to develop them, even if it is to the detriment of the squad, slip down the league, miss out on promotion, have to sell one or two and be in a constant cycle of never quite being good enough to go up and lingering in the championship, all be it with having to cut cloth less next year as we didn't gamble. I'd rather go for it and take our chances if it doesn't work out. | | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 14:19 - Oct 27 with 1373 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Winning v Asset development... on 14:03 - Oct 27 by mikeyhg |
From what I can see, we have two options. Go for promotion with arguably the best squad we've had post relegation and best manager in an open league, even if it means we don't develop players in some positions. Promotion would solve any financial issues we have but of course is not guaranteed. If we miss out on promotion, we have to proper tighten the belts next year, sell more players than we usually would and probably be in a relegation fight. The other option is to play players to develop them, even if it is to the detriment of the squad, slip down the league, miss out on promotion, have to sell one or two and be in a constant cycle of never quite being good enough to go up and lingering in the championship, all be it with having to cut cloth less next year as we didn't gamble. I'd rather go for it and take our chances if it doesn't work out. |
Third possible outcome is go for promotion, fail, not be able to raise enough money sales, fail FFP and pay for it for another ten years IF we survive. | |
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| Winning v Asset development... on 14:30 - Oct 27 with 1343 views | mikeyhg |
| Winning v Asset development... on 14:19 - Oct 27 by BrianMcCarthy |
Third possible outcome is go for promotion, fail, not be able to raise enough money sales, fail FFP and pay for it for another ten years IF we survive. |
I would hope not selling Dickie for 5-10m and Dozzell and Amos for 2-3m each if we're lucky would be the difference between passing and failing FFP
I can't see who else we'd be able to sell that we're currently not giving game time to. | | | |
| Winning v Asset development... on 14:50 - Oct 27 with 1325 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Winning v Asset development... on 14:30 - Oct 27 by mikeyhg |
I would hope not selling Dickie for 5-10m and Dozzell and Amos for 2-3m each if we're lucky would be the difference between passing and failing FFP
I can't see who else we'd be able to sell that we're currently not giving game time to. |
I think we're very close to the threshold, Mikey, and looking at the figures as we do (oh, the romance of football!) I think we know that we need to sell big next Summer if we don't go up. So, just saying that failure to get those sales in this deflated market and the then-consequent failure to meet FFP is a possible outcome as well. | |
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| Winning v Asset development... on 15:36 - Oct 27 with 1268 views | dmm |
| Winning v Asset development... on 21:27 - Oct 25 by StreathamRanger |
We might get a few quid for Sam Field assuming he's still got a couple of years on his contract. His excellent recent run of form has coincided with Balogun playing most games. Could be purely coincidental. |
I can't see us selling Field unless a ridiculous bid comes in. For me, he's the one player without adequate cover in the current squad. We could do a lot worse than find a decent player in January to cover him. | | | |
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