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Well, the money markets didn't like the mini budget. I met Liz Truss in a hotel in Monmouth a few years ago. She said her solution to pensioner poverty would be to feed them on Pedigree Chum. Not only would this save a lot of money, it would give them shiny coats and a nice cold nose.
If you do ever get the energy would be interested to hear how you think a young child today is being brought up in a country that has £2,400,000,000,000 of debt
That is literally borrowing money to spend more on repaying interest payments than on the Education system itself
The debt is rapidly growing. With all our intentions to grow it further
This debt has come about during a period of rapid technological advancement.
It has been brought about in peacetime. We haven't had any WW2 type events to justify it
It's the lack of self awareness and selfishness of the average British voter that I find morally wrong
This harm has always been a problem to pass down the line for another generation to deal with. Well now we are approaching that time that the consequences of our reckless living are felt
We're £2.4 trillion in debt. Like I said to spend that much money is the equivalent to spending £10m a day for 657 years continuously
To say the public doesn’t have any responsibility to that is disingenuous
a couple of misconceptions
1. governments never actually repay debt to reach a balanced budget. thats not the objective. you just continuously roll over the debt so that you always are in a deficit. same with companies- even companies like apple that generate billions and billions of profits and are rolling in cash will keep a lot of debt on their balance sheets. as one of my clients once said "the rich- we dont pay back our debt. we pay interest"
2. following on to that, interest rates have been historically low so its actually quite rational to have borrowed during that time of essentially free borrowing
3. the govt has capacity to print more money, which reduces the actual debt burden. obviously doing so now would not be smart in an inflationary environment, but this is a tool govts have to manage their debt
4. the £10m/year figure is totally random and kind of pointless. the government generates hundreds and hundreds of billions in tax receipts a year from income tax, capital gains tax, stamp duty, fuel tax, inheritance tax, VAT and on and on and on and on.
you cant apply the logic of balancing your individual budget with how a govt work.
the uk has loads of issues- inflation, soaring energy costs. theyve also inflicted a number of own goals with this idiotic policies (e.g., f*ed their currency, messed up interest rates, shaken market confidence). there are also loads of general structural issues (e.g., low productivity, lagging infrastructure, etc). however, i think youve rly mischaracterized the debt issue
From my basic understanding of economics, spending money stimulates economies. It supports businesses (big and small) and each transactions generates tax back into the treasury for the benefit of everyone. Therefore stifling the ability for 99% of the public to spend so that 1% can hoard even more money and not spend it seems bonkers to me. Or have I got it wrong and am missing something?
Well the only thing I think you missed out on is the introduction of the internet and digital technology to what you described. With the loss of control in everything because of this.
I would say yes it is partially our fault. The furlough scheme and the energy bailouts £200 billion between them are what's helped triggered this. It's the markets concern about how sustainable this is
Our tax and NI contributions as a society have been £2.4 trillion too low. Of course in reality of a Fiat system some debt is acceptable but we have as a society gone too far
Too much money has been spent by our government on us. What fraction of that £2.4 trillion do you really think has gone into the corrupt government's pockets? Can you honestly say the British public is blame free when that much debt has been racked up. 1 in 20 of Britains work force are in the NHS more still in other areas of government and all anyone does is moan how it’s not good enough. We have literally been the luckiest generation in British history and still we moan we want more as we pour on trillions in debt
Again I agree with you. The gov are corrupt. On all sides of the House and the largest chunk of the blame sits there. But a large chunk of the blame sits with the British public.
1997 was the starting gone on our spending of government money on unproductive spending that didn't encourage growth and it's progressively worsened from there
I've never understood how we're able to borrow so much more than we can ever pay back, but it's been happening most of my adult life. If not all of it. How am I supposed to complain about it? I don't really understand it.
I feel much better about the economic situation reading that post.
“Labour MP Rupa Huq suspended from party for calling Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng 'superficially' black”
Well as it refered to the Chancellor I thought it appropriate for this thread. Interestingly a Labour MP on Newsnight tonight refused to call that comment racist
You are engaging with the latest manifestation of the usual suspect. Save your breath I say.
I assume he's got photos of Clive in a Chelsea shirt or something.
He has a point though, doesn’t he? We get what we vote for. We vote for short term benefit and we do that because we can’t be bothered to learn about or are too selfish to worry about the more complicated longer term issues.
He has a point though, doesn’t he? We get what we vote for. We vote for short term benefit and we do that because we can’t be bothered to learn about or are too selfish to worry about the more complicated longer term issues.
Paul Weller nailed it over 40 years ago
"The public gets what the public wants"
Of course the public have been manipulated in terms of its desires but ultimately we all have free so there is an argument that we have collective responsibility for where we find ourselves.
I've never understood how we're able to borrow so much more than we can ever pay back, but it's been happening most of my adult life. If not all of it. How am I supposed to complain about it? I don't really understand it.
I totally agree with you but I'm far more interested in who owns this and every other countries debt. Nobody has ever given me an answer that makes sense to me
I totally agree with you but I'm far more interested in who owns this and every other countries debt. Nobody has ever given me an answer that makes sense to me
The few people who own the central banks
"The National Debt is NOT owed to us, it is owed to private banks who control our central bank the Bank of England. This is due to the fractional reserve monetary system which perpetuates by creating a society of debt out of nothing. Money is created on a computer, this is a crime if you are a private citizen but not a banker, and when it is in the system it can be re-lent up to 9 times its original value. This de-values the money and leads to inflation. Crucially interest is charged to the government on this created money (the original loan if you like). This interest goes to private banks. One wonders how much of the tax we pay is going straight into these banks pockets? The big question is, why are we in this type of system when there are alternatives that are far better for UK citizens and the world populace? When you look at the complete lack of meaningful action against banks over the last 200 years the answer becomes apparent. A very small few stay powerful and wealthy. We are the ones that keep them in that position through our ignorance and subservience."
The biggest swindle of the past hundred years? Undoubtedly, yes. WE (as in the public/plebs) allowed it to happen by not asking questions and stopping it.
The end of the existing financial system is not far away now. Let's just hope WE (as in the public/plebs) dont lose everything we currently own (but if we do, then dont worry because the WEF says we will be happy anyway)
1. governments never actually repay debt to reach a balanced budget. thats not the objective. you just continuously roll over the debt so that you always are in a deficit. same with companies- even companies like apple that generate billions and billions of profits and are rolling in cash will keep a lot of debt on their balance sheets. as one of my clients once said "the rich- we dont pay back our debt. we pay interest"
2. following on to that, interest rates have been historically low so its actually quite rational to have borrowed during that time of essentially free borrowing
3. the govt has capacity to print more money, which reduces the actual debt burden. obviously doing so now would not be smart in an inflationary environment, but this is a tool govts have to manage their debt
4. the £10m/year figure is totally random and kind of pointless. the government generates hundreds and hundreds of billions in tax receipts a year from income tax, capital gains tax, stamp duty, fuel tax, inheritance tax, VAT and on and on and on and on.
you cant apply the logic of balancing your individual budget with how a govt work.
the uk has loads of issues- inflation, soaring energy costs. theyve also inflicted a number of own goals with this idiotic policies (e.g., f*ed their currency, messed up interest rates, shaken market confidence). there are also loads of general structural issues (e.g., low productivity, lagging infrastructure, etc). however, i think youve rly mischaracterized the debt issue
Would point you to this excellent video from Ray Dallio. The rules around credit and debt and their cycles are as he says applicable to individuals as it does to the economy:
"Credit causes us to consume more than we produce when we acquire it and it causes us to consume less than we produce when we pay it back"
"Credit is bad when it creates over consumption that can't be paid back" Example "bad if you borrow money to buy a big TV"
"Credit is good when it efficiently allocates resources and produces income so you can buy back the debt" Example "good if you say buy a tractor and that lets you harvest more crops and earn more money to improve your living standards"
Spoiler alert!!! We are at the end of a long term debt cycle!! Much of our debt was on non-productive spending
Using Dalio's examples I'd say we were much closer too often to the buying a big TV end of the comparison then the investing in productive assets in racking up our £2.4 trillion of debt
A final point, my £10m a day paid for 657 years to get to our current debt wasn't at all "picked at random". It's a fact to highlight just how far we have already pushed things on the borrowing front.
Borrowing is linked to credit worthiness. Apple can take on more debt than your local chippy or curry house could. How much debt the UK can take on is related to its GDP. So there is a constraint on the debt burden we can take on. It isn't infinite as you imply. I am suggesting and the market is indicating that with our currency and interest rates being "messed up" as you say that we are breaching the limits of that
I've never understood how we're able to borrow so much more than we can ever pay back, but it's been happening most of my adult life. If not all of it. How am I supposed to complain about it? I don't really understand it.
You are absolutely right, in your concern you have just been gas lighted it's not okay to borrow so much. And once that credibility and trust goes in being able to pay back everything literally collapses.
It's true individually there's nothing you can do.
We needed sensible voices in the media and in public educating people to get public opinion on right track and people confident to question which seems intuitively obvious to you around borrowing
Instead you get people like Baz trying to bully you out. Ngbqpr the same writes a long paragraph in response to a set of facts I posted. Implying my position is wrong, unreasonable and shouldn't be discussed so he addresses none of the points because it was literally numerical facts. He just gaslights
That experience there is a microcosm of what happens elsewhere there is a high cost for speaking up. You are bullied and excluded but never intelligently encountered or debated
It's infuriating for someone like me as I literally knew this was coming. I am speaking because I care just as much as anybody else out here despite implication to the contrary and I am frightened of what's coming and the harm it will do to society
Look what the Sir Charlie Bean, a former deputy governor of the Bank of England has said yesterday:
"So if you want to get the share of government spending to GDP down, you have to be prepared, say, to move away from our own health service, which is free at the point of delivery to one funded by social insurance like they do in Germany."
So literally the NHS as we know it is at real genuine threat right now because we borrowed too much and when people pointed this out they were abused on forums like this
Of course the public have been manipulated in terms of its desires but ultimately we all have free so there is an argument that we have collective responsibility for where we find ourselves.
The public has been manipulated, and it goes back to a post I made earlier. People have been encouraged to live in debt over the past 40 years, buying things not really needed and trying to live a lifestyle that is unaffordable relative to their income. However, I take umbrage with the arguement that we all voted for that. Maybe in the 80s we did, due to the financial mess of the 70s, but since then all the parties have been fairly aligned regarding economic policy once in government. There is very little daylight between then, hence no real choices to be made by the voters, bar not voting at all. I do agree though that we all have free will, life is full of decisions, so can make the choice as to whether we really need the new car, or holiday this year rather than trying to save for a rainy day. It's called personal responsibility.
The public has been manipulated, and it goes back to a post I made earlier. People have been encouraged to live in debt over the past 40 years, buying things not really needed and trying to live a lifestyle that is unaffordable relative to their income. However, I take umbrage with the arguement that we all voted for that. Maybe in the 80s we did, due to the financial mess of the 70s, but since then all the parties have been fairly aligned regarding economic policy once in government. There is very little daylight between then, hence no real choices to be made by the voters, bar not voting at all. I do agree though that we all have free will, life is full of decisions, so can make the choice as to whether we really need the new car, or holiday this year rather than trying to save for a rainy day. It's called personal responsibility.
"We have free will". We also have ancient instincts and urges we don't fully understand that are manipulated to the full.
oh well. listening to radio 4 before trudging off to work, we can all expect to die of flu, skint, cold, homeless, in a nuclear wasteland. In the word of PunteR - 'Pub!'
Well,it was a bloody stupid thing to say, in itself and in it's timing. Why put up that link? Black people are as entitled to come from a range of backgrounds and have as wide variety as views as white people, surely? My eldest has a media profile, talks very well and with a 'bbc' accent, and get's abuse for being middle-class, because, of course, kids from a council estate should all talk common, like.
Sorry Northern, but I imagine you can see why I rail against this type of profiling.
I would say yes it is partially our fault. The furlough scheme and the energy bailouts £200 billion between them are what's helped triggered this. It's the markets concern about how sustainable this is
Our tax and NI contributions as a society have been £2.4 trillion too low. Of course in reality of a Fiat system some debt is acceptable but we have as a society gone too far
Too much money has been spent by our government on us. What fraction of that £2.4 trillion do you really think has gone into the corrupt government's pockets? Can you honestly say the British public is blame free when that much debt has been racked up. 1 in 20 of Britains work force are in the NHS more still in other areas of government and all anyone does is moan how it’s not good enough. We have literally been the luckiest generation in British history and still we moan we want more as we pour on trillions in debt
Again I agree with you. The gov are corrupt. On all sides of the House and the largest chunk of the blame sits there. But a large chunk of the blame sits with the British public.
1997 was the starting gone on our spending of government money on unproductive spending that didn't encourage growth and it's progressively worsened from there
Yes Gordon brown was the root cause. He started borrowing billions for no good reason, wasting it on benefits and public sector non jobs. Vote buying basically. He thought he could do it as he'd abolished boom and bust, but that turned out not to be the case. Very negligent. I'd always thought he was the dimmest, most negligent chancellor we'd had, but he might have been surpassed now. There was going to be a crunch at some point anyway on public spending, as the ageing population and ever more complex nhs treatments eat up more money. But last weeks budget has just exacerbated that.
A major Tory donor, a certain Crispin Odey (odious would be a more apt name), has made a fortune betting on the pound's decline. He blames Remainers for the economic mess ! Oh, by the way, he's the Kwarteng's old boss from his days at Odey Asset Management.
"The National Debt is NOT owed to us, it is owed to private banks who control our central bank the Bank of England. This is due to the fractional reserve monetary system which perpetuates by creating a society of debt out of nothing. Money is created on a computer, this is a crime if you are a private citizen but not a banker, and when it is in the system it can be re-lent up to 9 times its original value. This de-values the money and leads to inflation. Crucially interest is charged to the government on this created money (the original loan if you like). This interest goes to private banks. One wonders how much of the tax we pay is going straight into these banks pockets? The big question is, why are we in this type of system when there are alternatives that are far better for UK citizens and the world populace? When you look at the complete lack of meaningful action against banks over the last 200 years the answer becomes apparent. A very small few stay powerful and wealthy. We are the ones that keep them in that position through our ignorance and subservience."
The biggest swindle of the past hundred years? Undoubtedly, yes. WE (as in the public/plebs) allowed it to happen by not asking questions and stopping it.
The end of the existing financial system is not far away now. Let's just hope WE (as in the public/plebs) dont lose everything we currently own (but if we do, then dont worry because the WEF says we will be happy anyway)
[Post edited 28 Sep 2022 6:15]
Exactly. And as if fractional reserve banking - basically the ability to print money out of nothing - wasn't bad enough, then add into the mix the Thatcher government deregulating the UK banking industry in the mid 80s, a massive short-term gain for the UK, making it the go-to place for all the world's banks and the Canary Wharf boom is witness to that. But of course that short-term gain, to the huge benefit of the banksters and all those with vested interests, ushered in the era of ultra-cheap credit and everything that's followed, in other words, long-term pain. Except for the banks and their pals.
It's also worth noting another heinous event in this story was Nixon taking the dollar off the gold standard in 1971 and creating the petrodollar; this event, allied with the deregulation of the banking industry (the US soon followed suit) and the massive scam that is fractional reserve banking, is the root of the clusterfuuck that is today's Western world economies. So much can be traced back to those events, including the reason why the US and UK have supported the Saudis through thick and thin, leading to much of the chaos in the Middle East.
It's also worth pointing out that for several years now, both the Russians and Chinese have been buying large amounts of gold. It has been mooted for a long time that an attempt would be made by various vested interests to create an alternative world reserve currency backed by gold. If this worked, it would be the end of US global dominance, because since 1971 the petrodollar has meant that all oil has had to be traded in dollars, effectively making the dollar the world's reserve currency. It may still happen.
As an illustration of how this plays out, an interesting explanation as to the sudden Western interest in overthrowing Gaddafi was that he was attempting to create a gold-backed currency for Africa and the Middle East, and in so doing hoped to end the dollar hegemony and get oil traded in the new currency. This is not a conspiracy theory, he was actually doing this and in 2011 Libya held more gold as a proportion of gross domestic product than any country except Lebanon. This is a window into how the world of vast organised Mafia gangs - AKA nation states headed by governments backed by bankers - operate.
"Wikileaks released an unclassified U.S. Department of State document emailed to Hillary dated April 2, 2011, key Clinton aide Sidney Blumenthal confirmed that the Perkins* was right and the attack on Libya had nothing to do with Qaddafi being a threat to the United States and NATO and everything to do with looting his gold.
“Qaddafi’s government holds 143 tons of gold, and a similar amount in silver. During late March, 2011, these stocks were moved to Sabha (south west in the direction of the Libyan border with Niger and Chad); taken from the vaults of the Libyan Central Bank in Tripoli,” Blumenthal reported to Clinton.
Blumenthal pointed out the purpose of Qaddafi’s precious metal: “This gold was accumulated prior to the current rebellion and was intended to be used to establish a pan-African currency based on the Libyan golden Dinar. This plan was designed to provide the Francophone African Countries with an alternative to the French franc (CFA).”
Blumenthal spells out the reason for NATO’s attack and France’s imperial plunder, “French intelligence officers discovered this plan shortly after the current rebellion began, and this was one of the factors that influenced President Nicholas Sarkozy’s decision to commit France to the attack on Libya.”
The history of global finance is as murky as it gets.
*former CIA agent John Perkins, author of Confessions of an Economic Hitman (well worth a read if you want to know more about the murky and frankly heinous way the US has operated in regard to many 'third-world' countries).
The Chinese are in the process of "urging" their citizens to get out and spend all their Renminbi (Yuan) in advance of a digital currency.The march of this trend seems to be unstoppable.But then as for getting money out of your accounts here .... has anyone else been challenged by the question "What do you want it for" before getting the dosh?You have to be inventive in your reply,a simple "I want to squander it on hookers and cocaine" no longer has the same impact as before.
And another thing The City is not part of the UK,it has it's own police force even - although it's being disbanded by the "owners".
One of the most alarming elements of the current crisis is that the rise in interest rates is causing a huge increase in what the Govt pays to service that debt, I.e. interest payments.
In August debt interest was 8.2bn. Incidentally that was on a par with the Annual net payments to the EU while we were a member.
We send 1bn a week to private banks, let's fund the NHS instead Doesn't look as catchy on the side of a red bus.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky
Once upon a time on here, I said that leftist types often use their leftism to excuse the fact they are massively racist. Got written off as a conspiracy theory, or whatever it is you people do on here whenever someone makes a point you don't like. But this post is what that looks like, it's racist and should be unwelcome. But it's not unwelcome on here, because it comes from the left, so must be from a place of "good faith".....Nah, it's just racist.
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
Once upon a time on here, I said that leftist types often use their leftism to excuse the fact they are massively racist. Got written off as a conspiracy theory, or whatever it is you people do on here whenever someone makes a point you don't like. But this post is what that looks like, it's racist and should be unwelcome. But it's not unwelcome on here, because it comes from the left, so must be from a place of "good faith".....Nah, it's just racist.
Starmer has dealt with it severely and swiftly to send out a clear messages. When the Tories do similar we have a fortnight of circling the wagons before an embarrassing u-turn. It was a moronic thing to say, not least because it’s allowed right wing noddies to take some of the attention off this barbaric and intentional crashing of the economy by sixth formers masquerading as the latest government.
Starmer has dealt with it severely and swiftly to send out a clear messages. When the Tories do similar we have a fortnight of circling the wagons before an embarrassing u-turn. It was a moronic thing to say, not least because it’s allowed right wing noddies to take some of the attention off this barbaric and intentional crashing of the economy by sixth formers masquerading as the latest government.
It's pretty evident where Labour stands on it. Unacceptable. Rightly so.
Where does LFW stand on it? Valid comment? Unfortunate? Racist?
Sounds like your primary issue with the comment is that it's given "Right wing noddies" an opportunity to point out the hypocrisy of the left - Not the fact that a Labour MP is going around making racist comments about high-achieving black people.
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
Yes Gordon brown was the root cause. He started borrowing billions for no good reason, wasting it on benefits and public sector non jobs. Vote buying basically. He thought he could do it as he'd abolished boom and bust, but that turned out not to be the case. Very negligent. I'd always thought he was the dimmest, most negligent chancellor we'd had, but he might have been surpassed now. There was going to be a crunch at some point anyway on public spending, as the ageing population and ever more complex nhs treatments eat up more money. But last weeks budget has just exacerbated that.
Are you insane? Gordon Brown was chancellor 15 years ago.
The root cause is a lack of investment, lower productivity and a lack of technological innovation.
We have this current mess directly caused by the current government and you point at gordon brown?!? Keep voting tory mate and they'll have sold the NHS by the time you are old and they won't need to cut your pension as it will be worth f'all in about 5 years given the current current rate of inflation
But yay they've cut stamp duty so your house will be worth more
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