| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) 13:26 - May 11 with 6709 views | A_Newby |
I understand that you may read messages on this forum so perhaps you could answer these questions below.
A basic business rule is that annual income needs to be greater than annual expenditure. If you spend more money than you bring in, then eventually you will go bust Bury style.
In “your” business plan for RAFC you talk about investment from an outside source by selling for £6 a share the remaining unissued and possibly new shares in RAFC.
How did you arrive at the price of £6 a share? This seems overly optimistic for shares in a company that virtually guarantees you zero return on investment. The only people who would be interested in such an investment are ardent RAFC fans with spare cash, and then probably not at that price.
There are currently around 400,000 unissued RAFC shares and the proposal from EGM 2020 is to increase these to 700,000. Using share prices of £2 and £6 a share, this will raise either £800,000 to £1.4m or £2.4m to £4.2m.
This capital raised is then planned to be used to acquire (our own) training facilities, employ a director of football and to improve the playing squad (increase playing budget?).
All these are extra annual expenditures. Where is any increased annual income to offset these going to come from?
Without an increased income, once this capital injection has been spent you will then be left in the situation that you have increased outgoings with no increased income to pay for them.
The only way of then raising the funds needed is looking for another capital investment or by mortgaging the assets, the ground and training facilities (The Bury model).
I understand that the team needs good training facilities, but do we need to actually own these?
By owning the club’s training facilities, are they not another annual expenditure (maintenance, staffing, business rates) or is there something in the plan to raise extra off field income from the club owned training facilities? If so what and how feasible are these?
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:01 - May 11 with 6596 views | electricblue |
What gave you the right to become CEO..
What are your views upon a possible supporter funded 50%buy out...
Do you fear for your job! If not why not. |  |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:09 - May 11 with 6559 views | SuddenLad |
I think the share price of £6 only arose when an offer was made to purchase them from a prominent shareholder and they were quoted £6 per share for the transaction.
Said shareholder had/has repeatedly said he wasn't interested in selling, so he either quoted a £6 per share in an effort to deter the purchaser or was chancing his arm to see whether they would take the bait.
Clearly the £6 was too steep so they backed off. I'm not aware that any shares have ever changed hands or been offered for sale at £6 each. |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:14 - May 11 with 6522 views | Newbury_Dale |
I've never met the fella and wouldnt speak to him if he passed me in the street, but I think these constant attacks on David Bottomley are getting pretty tedious and uncalled for now.
**Edit - this message was in response to Lee Brookfields spiteful message which he has now either deleted or had it deleted for him** [Post edited 11 May 2021 14:22]
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) (n/t) on 14:14 - May 11 with 6521 views | SuddenLad |
[Post edited 11 May 2021 14:16]
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| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:21 - May 11 with 6488 views | James1980 |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:14 - May 11 by Newbury_Dale |
I've never met the fella and wouldnt speak to him if he passed me in the street, but I think these constant attacks on David Bottomley are getting pretty tedious and uncalled for now.
**Edit - this message was in response to Lee Brookfields spiteful message which he has now either deleted or had it deleted for him** [Post edited 11 May 2021 14:22]
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Careful you'll be accused of being him or being related.
There are definitely questions that need to be answered though. | |
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:24 - May 11 with 6466 views | Newbury_Dale |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:21 - May 11 by James1980 |
Careful you'll be accused of being him or being related.
There are definitely questions that need to be answered though. |
Custodians of the club should of course be accountable to the loyal supporters. But we're in personal vendetta territory now IMO. | | | |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:30 - May 11 with 6443 views | LeeBrookfield |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:24 - May 11 by Newbury_Dale |
Custodians of the club should of course be accountable to the loyal supporters. But we're in personal vendetta territory now IMO. |
It was legitimate questions which need answering.
You can feel free to disagree with them but, his salary, expense account and behaviour should be questioned.
Whether you find that spiteful or not, it is legitimate to ask at a shareholders meeting.
The CEO and other board members should be above reproach and clearly there are questions that need answering.
FYI The list of questions were not removed by me. [Post edited 11 May 2021 14:30]
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:31 - May 11 with 6436 views | James1980 |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:24 - May 11 by Newbury_Dale |
Custodians of the club should of course be accountable to the loyal supporters. But we're in personal vendetta territory now IMO. |
I said on another thread about having to be careful about not coming across as having a vendetta. I have heard Bottomley openly criticise social media including this forum. Giving me the impression he thinks it is populated with troublemakers.
I will say that last interview did it for me though particularly the comments about season tickets. | |
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:34 - May 11 with 6415 views | Plattyswrinklynuts |
Putting the share issue/price to one side for a mo, I can see the advantage to having our own training facility IF we could afford it.
If you’re building one from scratch as we are then it’s a good idea to make the place multi use, getting Hornets & possibly the local athletics club on board along with the council could enable funding from say the lottery or sport England & reduce build & running costs. A 4g pitch for community hire would also help with running costs.
If the club went solo (cost permitting) then the land is an asset the club could use to guarantee against loans or even sell in desperate financial times. I found it strange that the club hasn’t utilised cash when it had it to buy the old Church inn site or even possibly Spotland Bridge mill & car park, they are all close to the ground & could’ve been used for parking. Brownfield Land’s also a good place to put your cash into currently bearing in mind banks negligible interest rates!! |  | | |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:41 - May 11 with 6394 views | LeeBrookfield |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:34 - May 11 by Plattyswrinklynuts |
Putting the share issue/price to one side for a mo, I can see the advantage to having our own training facility IF we could afford it.
If you’re building one from scratch as we are then it’s a good idea to make the place multi use, getting Hornets & possibly the local athletics club on board along with the council could enable funding from say the lottery or sport England & reduce build & running costs. A 4g pitch for community hire would also help with running costs.
If the club went solo (cost permitting) then the land is an asset the club could use to guarantee against loans or even sell in desperate financial times. I found it strange that the club hasn’t utilised cash when it had it to buy the old Church inn site or even possibly Spotland Bridge mill & car park, they are all close to the ground & could’ve been used for parking. Brownfield Land’s also a good place to put your cash into currently bearing in mind banks negligible interest rates!! |
I always thought the old Castleton Gabriels ground would have been good to develop with all the land around it. Not been there in years, so no idea what it looks like now. | | | |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:43 - May 11 with 6387 views | BigKindo |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:34 - May 11 by Plattyswrinklynuts |
Putting the share issue/price to one side for a mo, I can see the advantage to having our own training facility IF we could afford it.
If you’re building one from scratch as we are then it’s a good idea to make the place multi use, getting Hornets & possibly the local athletics club on board along with the council could enable funding from say the lottery or sport England & reduce build & running costs. A 4g pitch for community hire would also help with running costs.
If the club went solo (cost permitting) then the land is an asset the club could use to guarantee against loans or even sell in desperate financial times. I found it strange that the club hasn’t utilised cash when it had it to buy the old Church inn site or even possibly Spotland Bridge mill & car park, they are all close to the ground & could’ve been used for parking. Brownfield Land’s also a good place to put your cash into currently bearing in mind banks negligible interest rates!! |
Until a few years ago I was a tenant at Spotland Bridge Mill. I recall planning was sought to convert the building into flats with retail outlets on the ground floor. It then became known that parts of the structure are Grade 2 listed - so good luck with that one. |  | | |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:47 - May 11 with 6372 views | D_Alien |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:31 - May 11 by James1980 |
I said on another thread about having to be careful about not coming across as having a vendetta. I have heard Bottomley openly criticise social media including this forum. Giving me the impression he thinks it is populated with troublemakers.
I will say that last interview did it for me though particularly the comments about season tickets. |
Did what? |  |
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:52 - May 11 with 6344 views | James1980 |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:47 - May 11 by D_Alien |
Did what? |
I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. That interview was the final straw for me. | |
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:54 - May 11 with 6323 views | A_Newby |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:09 - May 11 by SuddenLad |
I think the share price of £6 only arose when an offer was made to purchase them from a prominent shareholder and they were quoted £6 per share for the transaction.
Said shareholder had/has repeatedly said he wasn't interested in selling, so he either quoted a £6 per share in an effort to deter the purchaser or was chancing his arm to see whether they would take the bait.
Clearly the £6 was too steep so they backed off. I'm not aware that any shares have ever changed hands or been offered for sale at £6 each. |
Hi Sudden_Lad
I got the proposal of selling the shares at £6 each from the RAFC website.
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2020/march/clubstatement-agmegm/ | | | |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 15:02 - May 11 with 6293 views | Plattyswrinklynuts |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:43 - May 11 by BigKindo |
Until a few years ago I was a tenant at Spotland Bridge Mill. I recall planning was sought to convert the building into flats with retail outlets on the ground floor. It then became known that parts of the structure are Grade 2 listed - so good luck with that one. |
Which part? The bloody chimney?? 😂😂 | | | |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 15:04 - May 11 with 6280 views | D_Alien |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:52 - May 11 by James1980 |
I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. That interview was the final straw for me. |
Fair enough, but tbh it was a relatively minor point compared to the overwhelming evidence previously compiled by so many people on here, and i'm not talking about 'opinions'
I agree that all attempts to remove him from our club should be done with due process and based on his performance in both his roles | |
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 15:13 - May 11 with 6248 views | Newbury_Dale |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:30 - May 11 by LeeBrookfield |
It was legitimate questions which need answering.
You can feel free to disagree with them but, his salary, expense account and behaviour should be questioned.
Whether you find that spiteful or not, it is legitimate to ask at a shareholders meeting.
The CEO and other board members should be above reproach and clearly there are questions that need answering.
FYI The list of questions were not removed by me. [Post edited 11 May 2021 14:30]
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In your original, deleted message you queried the appropriateness of Bottomley's personal relationship with a fellow club employee. Totally uncalled for, and of no relevance to his abilty to do the job. At least you've not bothered repeating it. | | | |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 16:57 - May 11 with 5934 views | DaleiLama |
The season is over. STs won't go on sale til June. There's old stock to sell ....... that's going to be the only thing that comes out of the COA until 2xAGM/EGMs. As you were. |  |
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:16 - May 12 with 5360 views | A_Newby |
Questions for David Bottomley part 2.
Just concentrating on training facilities.
You have consistently stated that one of your (the boards) key ambitions is for RAFC to own (purchase / part purchase / share) their own training facilities.
I understand the benefits to the team and fans of RAFC of HAVING better training facilities, (squad development, retention, and hopefully fewer injuries during training sessions) but can the club actually finance the purchase or building of such new facilities without going into serious debt?
For RAFC fans there would be no satisfaction / benefit in the club developing a fantastic training ground if at the same time they are dropping down the football league pyramid or even worse going into administration.
You give as an example of the type of facilities you hope to create in Rochdale, the Poolfoot Farm Sports & Leisure Complex ( https://www.poolfootfarm.co.uk/), developed by Fleetwood Town AFC.
Having been lucky enough to have visited this place I do agree it would be fantastic to have something like this in Rochdale.
The Poolfoot Complex was largely funded by Fleetwood Town chairman Andy Pilley. The initial proposed investment was £6m but this ended up being nearer to £10m.
Prior to the pandemic in an interview with BusinessLive ( https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/toy-industry-veteran-who-be ) you stated that you were looking for an investor(s) willing to put £14m into the club to develop a training ground and to try to reach the championship, both good ambitions.
You indicated that around £8m would be needed to develop a training ground, but I would expect that to rise to nearer £10m as projects such as these always seem to do.
Now assume the cost of the training facilities is £10m, how would this be funded?
The selling of the unissued share capital even at the ambitious price of £6 a share would only raise around £4m so were would the other £6m come from?
Are you expecting to receive some co-funding from government community funds?
Are you planning to borrow money against the club’s current assets (COA) to fund the development?
How long would you expect it would take to develop any new training facilities (Fleetwood Towns took around 2 years)?
Do you expect any training facility / RAFC community asset to eventually self-fund with its income exceeding it outgoing costs so it being a net contributor to RAFC? How many years would you expect it would be before this would happen?
How would RAFC manage to repay any loaned funds / interest in any interim period between the start of the development of the training facility and it becoming profitable?
A final question can RAFC develop our own training and community facilities without having to take out loans on and put at risk the club’s current assets i.e. by share issues alone? | | | |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 18:10 - May 12 with 5160 views | onedalefan |
Is the £10 you have won on the Dale Lotto going to solve all your problems? |  | | |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 18:30 - May 12 with 5123 views | electricblue |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 14:16 - May 12 by A_Newby |
Questions for David Bottomley part 2.
Just concentrating on training facilities.
You have consistently stated that one of your (the boards) key ambitions is for RAFC to own (purchase / part purchase / share) their own training facilities.
I understand the benefits to the team and fans of RAFC of HAVING better training facilities, (squad development, retention, and hopefully fewer injuries during training sessions) but can the club actually finance the purchase or building of such new facilities without going into serious debt?
For RAFC fans there would be no satisfaction / benefit in the club developing a fantastic training ground if at the same time they are dropping down the football league pyramid or even worse going into administration.
You give as an example of the type of facilities you hope to create in Rochdale, the Poolfoot Farm Sports & Leisure Complex ( https://www.poolfootfarm.co.uk/), developed by Fleetwood Town AFC.
Having been lucky enough to have visited this place I do agree it would be fantastic to have something like this in Rochdale.
The Poolfoot Complex was largely funded by Fleetwood Town chairman Andy Pilley. The initial proposed investment was £6m but this ended up being nearer to £10m.
Prior to the pandemic in an interview with BusinessLive ( https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/toy-industry-veteran-who-be ) you stated that you were looking for an investor(s) willing to put £14m into the club to develop a training ground and to try to reach the championship, both good ambitions.
You indicated that around £8m would be needed to develop a training ground, but I would expect that to rise to nearer £10m as projects such as these always seem to do.
Now assume the cost of the training facilities is £10m, how would this be funded?
The selling of the unissued share capital even at the ambitious price of £6 a share would only raise around £4m so were would the other £6m come from?
Are you expecting to receive some co-funding from government community funds?
Are you planning to borrow money against the club’s current assets (COA) to fund the development?
How long would you expect it would take to develop any new training facilities (Fleetwood Towns took around 2 years)?
Do you expect any training facility / RAFC community asset to eventually self-fund with its income exceeding it outgoing costs so it being a net contributor to RAFC? How many years would you expect it would be before this would happen?
How would RAFC manage to repay any loaned funds / interest in any interim period between the start of the development of the training facility and it becoming profitable?
A final question can RAFC develop our own training and community facilities without having to take out loans on and put at risk the club’s current assets i.e. by share issues alone? |
£8m to build a training ground rising to a possible £10m where did he get that fiqure from a lucky bag..
You could build a new ground for that...... | |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) (n/t) on 09:31 - May 13 with 4805 views | A_Newby |
[Post edited 13 May 2021 12:33]
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| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 12:41 - May 13 with 4684 views | A_Newby |
| Open questions to David Bottomley or any Director of RAFC. (1) on 18:30 - May 12 by electricblue |
£8m to build a training ground rising to a possible £10m where did he get that fiqure from a lucky bag..
You could build a new ground for that...... |
Hi electricblue
The cost of the proposed RAFC training facilities is based on what Fleetwood actually spent on theirs.
In another thread started by James1980, AFC Wimbledon have launched 25 year season tickets to reduce a short term £4.1m commercial loan they had needed to take out (partly due to the pandemic) to complete the building their new ground. The final cost of the ground was £32-33 million.
They recognised that the high interest rates they would have to pay on this loan could cripple the club financially hence the launch of the 25 year season tickets to eliminate or reduce this loan.
Loan free, both Fleetwood’s and Wimbledon’s new training facilities / ground are or will be profitable annually PROVIDING funds for their respective clubs but only because there are / will be no expensive capital loan repayments to be made.
If either of them had such large loans, the interest payments alone are likely to take funds OUT of their clubs reducing the playing budget and / or putting the clubs in financial difficulty and risking administration.
The funding for these two ventures has been different.
Fleetwood — A generous chairman
Wimbledon - Mainly fan funded with some short-term commercial loans.
In both funding cases however, the thing they have in common is that the main investors DO NOT expect a return on their investments.
Wimbledon have been honest about this is their fund raising from their fundraising website - "Investing in private businesses involves risks, including loss of capital, illiquidity, lack of dividends and dilution"
They have also been willing to raise some of their funds in small amounts, again from Wimbledon’s fundraising website “Any investor can participate, investing from a minimum of £10.”
RAFC are looking for funding for new training / community facilities from a small number of investors by way of a share issue.
As I have pointed out earlier in this thread that this share issue (up to 700,000) could raise £4m, but this would not cover the £10m cost of the building the proposed facilities, hence my questions about how the remainder would be funded. I fear if commercial loans are used that this would eventually lead to the club “going bust”.
As it looks unlikely that RAFC can attract a large investor who is willing to invest many millions of pounds in the club with zero return, we need to look at alternatives.
Perhaps RAFC could for example, instead of increasing the number of authorised shares from 900,000 to 1,200,000 and looking to sell these @ £6 per share to small number of investors could look at increasing the number of authorised shares to say 5,000,000 and selling these at £3 per share to a larger number of small investors or a mix of larger and small investors.
Doing this could raise about £11-12m after costs. It would require the current shareholders voting to massively reduce their influence on the board.
I would have some provisos for this:
1. The issued shares have full voting rights.
2. The shares can be bought in small blocks of say 10.
3. The funds raised are “ring fenced” and are used only to develop commercially profitable training / community facilities. I would not like them to be used to give a short term increase in the playing budget, the club in the long term needs to balance annual income and expenditure.
With these provisos I would be willing to invest (donate) £500 - £1,000 in such a scheme.
I would, for example purchase small shareholdings for my teenage RAFC supporting nephews that could be framed and displayed on their bedroom walls. | | | |
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