| Brexit, not happening now?? on 17:57 - Nov 4 with 1545 views | Mytch_QPR |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 17:45 - Nov 4 by QPR_John |
My point was about the EU not directly with the court verdict the government have given some of their powers away to the EU without the consent of the people. The idea that those that wanted to leave are hypocritical because they now do not want parliament to discuss when article 50 is invoked is blurring the issue. The decision on article 50 was delegated, for want of a better word, to the referendum hence does not need further scrutiny as the decision has already been made.
Well at least that is how I saw it until I was made aware that referendum as passed by parliament was only advisory. I was previously unaware of this and in reality makes all the arguments since superfluous. The referendum was a complete waste of time as it did not bind parliament [Post edited 4 Nov 2016 17:56]
|
I've made some flippant points here today, but being sensible for a moment the bottom line here is that Cameron never really envisaged defeat. He took a body blow when Boris decided he was suddenly a leaver (despite always being pro-EU in the past), but the opinion polls suggested he would get the result he wanted and that would mark the end of the road for UKIP and the Euro-sceptic Tories.
As other posters have said, it was mentioned right from the outset that a full vote of all MPs would be required to trigger A50, but Cameron just thought that was irrelevant because the whole referendum was just political posturing that would strengthen his position.
Logically, how could he lose? - the economy was doing fairly well, unemployment was low - he was offering the opportunity to stay as we are, or take a huge step into the unknown. Clearly, you just can't trust the general public to make the right decision. Next week, a huge number of people watching the outcome of the US election might be thinking the same thing. [Post edited 4 Nov 2016 17:58]
|  |
|  |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 18:06 - Nov 4 with 1520 views | QPR_John |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 17:57 - Nov 4 by Mytch_QPR |
I've made some flippant points here today, but being sensible for a moment the bottom line here is that Cameron never really envisaged defeat. He took a body blow when Boris decided he was suddenly a leaver (despite always being pro-EU in the past), but the opinion polls suggested he would get the result he wanted and that would mark the end of the road for UKIP and the Euro-sceptic Tories.
As other posters have said, it was mentioned right from the outset that a full vote of all MPs would be required to trigger A50, but Cameron just thought that was irrelevant because the whole referendum was just political posturing that would strengthen his position.
Logically, how could he lose? - the economy was doing fairly well, unemployment was low - he was offering the opportunity to stay as we are, or take a huge step into the unknown. Clearly, you just can't trust the general public to make the right decision. Next week, a huge number of people watching the outcome of the US election might be thinking the same thing. [Post edited 4 Nov 2016 17:58]
|
"As other posters have said, it was mentioned right from the outset that a full vote of all MPs would be required to trigger A50, but Cameron just thought that was irrelevant because the whole referendum was just political posturing that would strengthen his position. "
I cannot remember being informed about the need for article 50 to have the support of MPs but maybe that is my fault. What I do remember is Cameron stating a leave result would be respected and would mean leaving the free trade area. Let's face it he started this and has directly caused the situation we are now in.
The bottom line is that we all now know that referenda are a pointless exercise. Does this mean that if Scotland voted for independence the U.K. government can simply ignore it. [Post edited 4 Nov 2016 18:09]
|  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 18:21 - Nov 4 with 1484 views | Mytch_QPR |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 18:06 - Nov 4 by QPR_John |
"As other posters have said, it was mentioned right from the outset that a full vote of all MPs would be required to trigger A50, but Cameron just thought that was irrelevant because the whole referendum was just political posturing that would strengthen his position. "
I cannot remember being informed about the need for article 50 to have the support of MPs but maybe that is my fault. What I do remember is Cameron stating a leave result would be respected and would mean leaving the free trade area. Let's face it he started this and has directly caused the situation we are now in.
The bottom line is that we all now know that referenda are a pointless exercise. Does this mean that if Scotland voted for independence the U.K. government can simply ignore it. [Post edited 4 Nov 2016 18:09]
|
I don't know about the Scotland question but, theoretically, yes if referendums are not binding in law.
I can understand why leave voters are very angry about this - although what irks me the most is the huge sums of money spent on the whole thing when the country's debt continues to rise - with possibly another general election to follow.
I think Cameron resigned because he knows the top job is now a poisoned chalice. That's one of the reasons Boris didn't throw his hat in. As Konk pointed out, no one knew what Brexit really meant, and they still don't - but many seemed to imagine we could divorce ourselves from the EU and have complete control of our borders and just continue to trade as we were (plus the bonus of £350m a week extra in the kitty, don't forget) and that's clearly never going to happen.
The whole thing is a massive mess resulting from a political gamble which backfired.
Right, I'm off to Tesco (property sales are poor so Waitrose is off limits) - I'll check back in tomorrow. Keep it respectful! | |
| |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 19:15 - Nov 4 with 1419 views | stevec |
Just back from the doctors, did I miss anything? |  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 19:21 - Nov 4 with 1410 views | PunteR |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 19:15 - Nov 4 by stevec |
Just back from the doctors, did I miss anything? |
No.
Same sh*t different day etc etc |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
| |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 19:29 - Nov 4 with 1394 views | connell10 |
The people who voted to stay are not a minority mate! |  |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
| |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 21:04 - Nov 4 with 1320 views | Hoop_Du_Jour |
 |  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 00:24 - Nov 5 with 1244 views | Brightonhoop |
Jeez this thread wentout there.
Anyway, long long ago before Norf moderated Ingham did and the accepted behaviour was self moderation, at significant legal risk to himself. So have opted not to answer, fuel to a fire, but now cannot find the comment. Anyway, in the context of attack or assault, verbal or physical, if it is accompanied by defining nationality, race or religion you will be charged with an aggravated assault carrying a higher sentance. If you batter a bloke calling him a bar stewared, it will be a lot worse if you call him an ' ex model, south american bar steward.' Top tip, dont shoot the messenger.
Maybe it's me but the lack of comment from the top legal geezer is astonishing. I hope he's got a steel glove up his sleeve for Dacre and the Daily Mail. Or he's impotent.
And the concept of May a a Leader is utterly laid bare. Utterly. Every day she is Leader is a day closer to a Labour Government. She's a chocolate teapot, motorbike ashtray. Vote for her. Vote for shyte. The longer she stays the better. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 07:10 - Nov 5 with 1177 views | Hooped_Pullie |
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37869797
Hilarious…apparently US sports commentator Gina Miller has been abused online, being mistaken for the OTHER Gina Miller.
Worse still, she's been asked what she thinks of JFH !!!
It's a mad world, my masters  | | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 08:39 - Nov 5 with 1142 views | Mytch_QPR |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 07:10 - Nov 5 by Hooped_Pullie |
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37869797
Hilarious…apparently US sports commentator Gina Miller has been abused online, being mistaken for the OTHER Gina Miller.
Worse still, she's been asked what she thinks of JFH !!!
It's a mad world, my masters |
The sort of threats these xenophobic knuckle draggers have been making aren't very funny - far from it. If that's an example of British patriotism then count me out. | |
| |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 09:13 - Nov 5 with 1121 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 15:27 - Nov 4 by hopphoops |
Good post, though on balance I disagree with you. People in positions of power are often incompetent, uncaring of in the public interest, or corrupt. Many are none of those things. Whether or not they are appointed or elected makes little difference overall as far as I can see.
The answer is greater separation of powers, ensuring that at least no one institution has enough power to do massive harm. In the British context I'd say that means more regional devolution, not less power in Europe. Power in Britain and particularly in England has been long hugely focused in Westminster and increasingly since the 80s.
Does this mean the EU is great? No, but if you look at most social, economic or environmental processes that have benefited British people and also people outside Europe, I'd say far more have come from Europe than Westminster. In any case, address the issues from the inside, don't just march off in a huff.
I don't know about CETA but I don't understand how trade agreements can operate outside the legal regimes of the concerned countries. And whether or not we are going to even start to address the climate and environmental crises ongoing, it will be through international cooperation not a national government that can't even wipe its own arse.
To finish, why some much vitriol and division? I think Britain's turned into that couple where one's a shouter and the other continues to speak quietly through gritted teeth, and they just drive each other bananas. |
Thanks for getting back to me Hopphoops.
I'll try and answer your points.
"The answer is greater separation of powers, ensuring that at least no one institution has enough power to do massive harm. In the British context I'd say that means more regional devolution, not less power in Europe. Power in Britain and particularly in England has been long hugely focused in Westminster and increasingly since the 80s."
I absolutely agree about the greater separation of powers and the improvement in the democratic process through more regional devolution to ensure that no one institution has enough power to do massive harm. More local sovereignty, less centralised power and fewer layers between people/communities and the decisions made to affect them is vital. But saying that you want that whilst supporting our maintaining of centralised control from the EU makes no logical sense to me. Surely that is a greater centralisation than merely Westminster. You only need to study the link I put up on CETA/TTIP to see how that concentration of power is being abused in ways that I am certain you would be opposed to.
"Does this mean the EU is great? No, but if you look at most social, economic or environmental processes that have benefited British people and also people outside Europe, I'd say far more have come from Europe than Westminster. In any case, address the issues from the inside, don't just march off in a huff.
I don't know about CETA but I don't understand how trade agreements can operate outside the legal regimes of the concerned countries. "
This is the exactly why I posted the link. If you don't know about or understand CETA then ,for me, you don't know about or understand what is happening at the centre of the EU ideology. It explains how foreign corporate profits will have absolute priority over a country's legal regimes (and thus the well being of its citizens) through the ability to sue over ANY LEGISLATION that 'potentially' affects its profits. Even more pertinently, it shows the level of pretence, deceit and attempted secrecy that has been employed in its creation in order to avoid the obvious opposition that would occur. Millions marched against TTIP but CETA is just the same but has been passed through the backdoor.
"And whether or not we are going to even start to address the climate and environmental crises ongoing, it will be through international cooperation not a national government that can't even wipe its own arse. "
Well I would have to once again point you in the direction of the link I put up, it goes into great detail (including quotes from climate and environmental campaigners and organisations) that make it quite clear how the recently rushed through CETA treaty goes against our dealing with such crisis. To the point where sovereign governments can be sued by global corporations for attempting to introduce environmental protection legislation if it affects their profits. Secretly, outside of the normal legal system, ruled on, not by judges but by a panel of 'for profit arbitrators'.
"To finish, why some much vitriol and division? I think Britain's turned into that couple where one's a shouter and the other continues to speak quietly through gritted teeth, and they just drive each other bananas."
It's clear that both sides have plenty of shouters, this thread is evidence of that. Look how many people would rather join in the abuse and one upmanship 'fun and games' rather than engaging with some actual well researched content that would at the very least give them some additional information about what the central power base of the EU is busy pushing through and whose interests it is serving.
We are clearly going to have a long and drawn out Brexit Affair and there are many directions it could end up going in.
I would suggest that we spend this time really studying and sharing our information about the EU, for all its good and bad sides. I reckon it will be more productive than sending our time complaining about/defending the Daily Mail and will lead us to being in a better position as a community to know what parts of the EU genuinely serve us and what parts clearly won't be in the future.
I see that one of Remainers main thoughts of Brexiters is that they didn't know the facts of what they were voting for. That may well be true to some extent. But I would, in peace, say that very few Remainers knew/know the full details about the institution they are so passionately defending.
There are many of my left wing chums on here slinging the mud about and seemingly taking quite a moral high ground about feeling that they are clearly more informed than Brexiters. Yet the research on CETA shows that the central power base at the EU is clearly, deliberately and within a strong legal framework putting the profits of foreign corporations way above workers' rights, environmental protection, the right for a nation to run and own its own infra structure (ie health, education, power etc etc). I don't believe that is what many Remainers signed up for. Where they aware of it? Are they bothered!? Is it best ignored!? Help me out here!
Have a read, https://corporateeurope.org/international-trade/2016/10/great-ceta-swindle
Lets have a chat. I don't care whether people stay as Remainers or not but I do care that they have as much information as possible about current, seismic EU activities so that when we come to our Brexit situation they can knowledgeably argue what parts we should keep and what we should attempt to avoid and both choose and interact with their chosen representatives accordingly.
Peace |  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 10:23 - Nov 5 with 1063 views | Metallica_Hoop |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 07:10 - Nov 5 by Hooped_Pullie |
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37869797
Hilarious…apparently US sports commentator Gina Miller has been abused online, being mistaken for the OTHER Gina Miller.
Worse still, she's been asked what she thinks of JFH !!!
It's a mad world, my masters |
I'd just like to clarify that that wasn't me..
I'm too hungover.  |  |
| Beer and Beef has made us what we are - The Prince Regent |
| |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 10:35 - Nov 5 with 1735 views | distortR |
Well, i started reading this thread, gave up, and scrolled through to the end to try and find out who would get the last word in, PP or Danny!
My point of view tends to align with bobby hazells, but i let him do the talking, he's way more articulate then me!
Recently diverged on to Greek bail out deals and arms sales from Germany. Look it up. Wow. | | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 11:39 - Nov 5 with 1674 views | wood_hoop |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 09:13 - Nov 5 by 1BobbyHazell |
Thanks for getting back to me Hopphoops.
I'll try and answer your points.
"The answer is greater separation of powers, ensuring that at least no one institution has enough power to do massive harm. In the British context I'd say that means more regional devolution, not less power in Europe. Power in Britain and particularly in England has been long hugely focused in Westminster and increasingly since the 80s."
I absolutely agree about the greater separation of powers and the improvement in the democratic process through more regional devolution to ensure that no one institution has enough power to do massive harm. More local sovereignty, less centralised power and fewer layers between people/communities and the decisions made to affect them is vital. But saying that you want that whilst supporting our maintaining of centralised control from the EU makes no logical sense to me. Surely that is a greater centralisation than merely Westminster. You only need to study the link I put up on CETA/TTIP to see how that concentration of power is being abused in ways that I am certain you would be opposed to.
"Does this mean the EU is great? No, but if you look at most social, economic or environmental processes that have benefited British people and also people outside Europe, I'd say far more have come from Europe than Westminster. In any case, address the issues from the inside, don't just march off in a huff.
I don't know about CETA but I don't understand how trade agreements can operate outside the legal regimes of the concerned countries. "
This is the exactly why I posted the link. If you don't know about or understand CETA then ,for me, you don't know about or understand what is happening at the centre of the EU ideology. It explains how foreign corporate profits will have absolute priority over a country's legal regimes (and thus the well being of its citizens) through the ability to sue over ANY LEGISLATION that 'potentially' affects its profits. Even more pertinently, it shows the level of pretence, deceit and attempted secrecy that has been employed in its creation in order to avoid the obvious opposition that would occur. Millions marched against TTIP but CETA is just the same but has been passed through the backdoor.
"And whether or not we are going to even start to address the climate and environmental crises ongoing, it will be through international cooperation not a national government that can't even wipe its own arse. "
Well I would have to once again point you in the direction of the link I put up, it goes into great detail (including quotes from climate and environmental campaigners and organisations) that make it quite clear how the recently rushed through CETA treaty goes against our dealing with such crisis. To the point where sovereign governments can be sued by global corporations for attempting to introduce environmental protection legislation if it affects their profits. Secretly, outside of the normal legal system, ruled on, not by judges but by a panel of 'for profit arbitrators'.
"To finish, why some much vitriol and division? I think Britain's turned into that couple where one's a shouter and the other continues to speak quietly through gritted teeth, and they just drive each other bananas."
It's clear that both sides have plenty of shouters, this thread is evidence of that. Look how many people would rather join in the abuse and one upmanship 'fun and games' rather than engaging with some actual well researched content that would at the very least give them some additional information about what the central power base of the EU is busy pushing through and whose interests it is serving.
We are clearly going to have a long and drawn out Brexit Affair and there are many directions it could end up going in.
I would suggest that we spend this time really studying and sharing our information about the EU, for all its good and bad sides. I reckon it will be more productive than sending our time complaining about/defending the Daily Mail and will lead us to being in a better position as a community to know what parts of the EU genuinely serve us and what parts clearly won't be in the future.
I see that one of Remainers main thoughts of Brexiters is that they didn't know the facts of what they were voting for. That may well be true to some extent. But I would, in peace, say that very few Remainers knew/know the full details about the institution they are so passionately defending.
There are many of my left wing chums on here slinging the mud about and seemingly taking quite a moral high ground about feeling that they are clearly more informed than Brexiters. Yet the research on CETA shows that the central power base at the EU is clearly, deliberately and within a strong legal framework putting the profits of foreign corporations way above workers' rights, environmental protection, the right for a nation to run and own its own infra structure (ie health, education, power etc etc). I don't believe that is what many Remainers signed up for. Where they aware of it? Are they bothered!? Is it best ignored!? Help me out here!
Have a read, https://corporateeurope.org/international-trade/2016/10/great-ceta-swindle
Lets have a chat. I don't care whether people stay as Remainers or not but I do care that they have as much information as possible about current, seismic EU activities so that when we come to our Brexit situation they can knowledgeably argue what parts we should keep and what we should attempt to avoid and both choose and interact with their chosen representatives accordingly.
Peace |
Great post, so much clouding just what being in or out of the EU really means, I ve now reached a point of utter confusion.
Very much was a 'European' but still with an immence pride in being a Brit, it seems from some articles good chance this would be regarded as traitorous , politics is now becoming so 'religious' like, if you don't follow all the creed of certain political viewpoints you are an unbeliever.
I suppose I would be classed as a 'socialist' if expressing my veiwpoints but even what I think is an admirable stance in life has been hijacked by over zealous fanatics of the very left with ideologies that belong only in 'fairy tale' books.
Their once again all out corrupting the one political party that did try and at least represent the 'common man' in this country, as poor as they have been at times at least sometimes they got things bang on, the NHS being top of the list, yet they have a leader who inspires just who ?
Labour should be the one salvation in Brexit, ensuring that the 'common man' is not kicked into the ground yet again, now that the 'money men' have taken virtual sole control of where we are heading, yet millions have no faith and the billionaire 'rags' will spill more lies and make even more billions for a selected few.
The EU has become a 'religion' that has been hijacked by money, and the control of it lies not with the people as so many believed, the EU was
a good idea, the Tories once they started raking in the profits went headlong into the trough with all the other corrupt and greedy 'money men' that envisaged even bigger bank balances, pure political infighting caused the Brexit, didn't help that Farage finally had a major stage in which to spout his lies and inuendo, the 'money men' must be spitting feathers that their loyal patrons have caused such turmoil.
Now we are are in limbo land for who knows how long, somehow I don't think the 'money men' of the UK will want to lose real control so can see a botched,mixed up affilation to the EU, where the City boys keep raking in the billions but the 'comman man' will be left to find there own way, left with sort of ties to the EU but not with any of the current legal rights to go anywhere within the EU, the Exiters will not get the 'all out' of EU that was a remit to their campaign, the Remainers will be left very much in the wilderness and can see the bitterness getting worse between differing political veiws. |  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 12:13 - Nov 5 with 1652 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Well done 1BH and others for some of your posts. Clearly, I have some serious research to do on CETA.
As for Article 50, I can't see how this week changes anything. It was clear before that Parliament would have to be consulted and that (unlike Ireland) a referendum in Britain is not legally binding but is clearly politically binding. I can't see either House standing in the way. |  |
| |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 12:36 - Nov 5 with 1629 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 10:35 - Nov 5 by distortR |
Well, i started reading this thread, gave up, and scrolled through to the end to try and find out who would get the last word in, PP or Danny!
My point of view tends to align with bobby hazells, but i let him do the talking, he's way more articulate then me!
Recently diverged on to Greek bail out deals and arms sales from Germany. Look it up. Wow. |
Great shout on the Greek bailouts Distort. Any decent links?
And thank you for your generous words. | | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 13:14 - Nov 5 with 1600 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 11:39 - Nov 5 by wood_hoop |
Great post, so much clouding just what being in or out of the EU really means, I ve now reached a point of utter confusion.
Very much was a 'European' but still with an immence pride in being a Brit, it seems from some articles good chance this would be regarded as traitorous , politics is now becoming so 'religious' like, if you don't follow all the creed of certain political viewpoints you are an unbeliever.
I suppose I would be classed as a 'socialist' if expressing my veiwpoints but even what I think is an admirable stance in life has been hijacked by over zealous fanatics of the very left with ideologies that belong only in 'fairy tale' books.
Their once again all out corrupting the one political party that did try and at least represent the 'common man' in this country, as poor as they have been at times at least sometimes they got things bang on, the NHS being top of the list, yet they have a leader who inspires just who ?
Labour should be the one salvation in Brexit, ensuring that the 'common man' is not kicked into the ground yet again, now that the 'money men' have taken virtual sole control of where we are heading, yet millions have no faith and the billionaire 'rags' will spill more lies and make even more billions for a selected few.
The EU has become a 'religion' that has been hijacked by money, and the control of it lies not with the people as so many believed, the EU was
a good idea, the Tories once they started raking in the profits went headlong into the trough with all the other corrupt and greedy 'money men' that envisaged even bigger bank balances, pure political infighting caused the Brexit, didn't help that Farage finally had a major stage in which to spout his lies and inuendo, the 'money men' must be spitting feathers that their loyal patrons have caused such turmoil.
Now we are are in limbo land for who knows how long, somehow I don't think the 'money men' of the UK will want to lose real control so can see a botched,mixed up affilation to the EU, where the City boys keep raking in the billions but the 'comman man' will be left to find there own way, left with sort of ties to the EU but not with any of the current legal rights to go anywhere within the EU, the Exiters will not get the 'all out' of EU that was a remit to their campaign, the Remainers will be left very much in the wilderness and can see the bitterness getting worse between differing political veiws. |
Nice one Wood Hoop.
The bitterness is definitely a huge issue, we all have to be as peaceful, calm and positive as possible. I fully appreciate how difficult that can be!
I disagree with you about Labour, I think it had become a Tory Lite party. You rightly mention the NHS as a beautiful achievement but Tony Blair began the selling off of that and education so not really the party it once was. The sad/funny thing is a fella gets voted in who clearly does have more in line with old school labour values and it seems everybody f-ing hates him!! Ah well, that's all for another thread I guess.
I too feel European and believe that all the positive aspects of cross continent cooperation on many projects is a wonderful thing.
It is, as I think you allude to, the issue of the taking over and dominance by the 'money men' that is my real issue. One that has become greatly amplified by the nature of the CETA treaty and their obvious desperate rush to push it through quickly.
On that note I see that our very own International trade secretary, Liam Fox, was called to the European Scrutiny Committee (ha!) in the commons to explain why he had given CETA his backing WITHOUT CONSULTING PARLIAMENT and not allowing a parliamentary debate! He came out with this - “I’m sorry the timescales meant it wasn’t possible to have a debate … For the UK to have been seen as in any way blocking [the deal] would have left us in a very difficult position regarding [EU] member states, and of course Canada.”
This from a supposed pro Brexiter. I beg you all to take a look at the link I posted and see what he has signed us up to. Pro Brexiter!!??
Wow.
And while we're on amusing/ridiculous quotes here's one from Donald Tusk, president of the European council, on CETA - “Fortunately we live in a democratic system and democracy is less predictable than other political systems but I still prefer democracy. My prediction is there is no huge problem with European parliaments. After my talks with all 28 member states’ leaders, I have no doubt Ceta is the least controversial trade agreement you could imagine.”
Anyone with strong Remain feelings, reread that quote, go and read the research on CETA and then have an open minded reflection on where the central power base of the EU are leading us and on the seemingly common myth, widely held and vehemently protected, that the EU is the key to upholding worker's rights, working conditions, environmental concerns, democratic protection etc etc etc.
As I keep saying I'm really not looking for an argument, I'm not even trying the impossible to change Remainers to Brexiters (well maybe a little), what is important to me is that we try to genuinely learn more about what information/perspectives lie behind each others beliefs and stances we hold and see if we can find any common ground between us. I have more to say on how that can enhance our ability to hold our elected officials more accountable (you'd be AMAZED at how little MP's know about certain subjects), but I'm sure I'll get that out another time.
Peace
Just in case anyone missed it. 
https://corporateeurope.org/international-trade/2016/10/great-ceta-swindle | | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 13:51 - Nov 5 with 1556 views | WatfordR |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 12:13 - Nov 5 by BrianMcCarthy |
Well done 1BH and others for some of your posts. Clearly, I have some serious research to do on CETA.
As for Article 50, I can't see how this week changes anything. It was clear before that Parliament would have to be consulted and that (unlike Ireland) a referendum in Britain is not legally binding but is clearly politically binding. I can't see either House standing in the way. |
Would either House now simply wave through a vote to trigger Article 50 without having an undertaking that certain outcomes MUST be forthcoming from the post trigger negotiations?
It would seem irresponsible, indeed reckless, of the MPs to simply agree to trigger Article 50 with nothing more than assurances that the negotiating team will simply "do their best". Surely there will need to be some must haves and can't haves that the MPs will want as absolutes from the outcome of post-trigger negotiations? |  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 14:32 - Nov 5 with 1504 views | QPR_John |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 13:14 - Nov 5 by 1BobbyHazell |
Nice one Wood Hoop.
The bitterness is definitely a huge issue, we all have to be as peaceful, calm and positive as possible. I fully appreciate how difficult that can be!
I disagree with you about Labour, I think it had become a Tory Lite party. You rightly mention the NHS as a beautiful achievement but Tony Blair began the selling off of that and education so not really the party it once was. The sad/funny thing is a fella gets voted in who clearly does have more in line with old school labour values and it seems everybody f-ing hates him!! Ah well, that's all for another thread I guess.
I too feel European and believe that all the positive aspects of cross continent cooperation on many projects is a wonderful thing.
It is, as I think you allude to, the issue of the taking over and dominance by the 'money men' that is my real issue. One that has become greatly amplified by the nature of the CETA treaty and their obvious desperate rush to push it through quickly.
On that note I see that our very own International trade secretary, Liam Fox, was called to the European Scrutiny Committee (ha!) in the commons to explain why he had given CETA his backing WITHOUT CONSULTING PARLIAMENT and not allowing a parliamentary debate! He came out with this - “I’m sorry the timescales meant it wasn’t possible to have a debate … For the UK to have been seen as in any way blocking [the deal] would have left us in a very difficult position regarding [EU] member states, and of course Canada.”
This from a supposed pro Brexiter. I beg you all to take a look at the link I posted and see what he has signed us up to. Pro Brexiter!!??
Wow.
And while we're on amusing/ridiculous quotes here's one from Donald Tusk, president of the European council, on CETA - “Fortunately we live in a democratic system and democracy is less predictable than other political systems but I still prefer democracy. My prediction is there is no huge problem with European parliaments. After my talks with all 28 member states’ leaders, I have no doubt Ceta is the least controversial trade agreement you could imagine.”
Anyone with strong Remain feelings, reread that quote, go and read the research on CETA and then have an open minded reflection on where the central power base of the EU are leading us and on the seemingly common myth, widely held and vehemently protected, that the EU is the key to upholding worker's rights, working conditions, environmental concerns, democratic protection etc etc etc.
As I keep saying I'm really not looking for an argument, I'm not even trying the impossible to change Remainers to Brexiters (well maybe a little), what is important to me is that we try to genuinely learn more about what information/perspectives lie behind each others beliefs and stances we hold and see if we can find any common ground between us. I have more to say on how that can enhance our ability to hold our elected officials more accountable (you'd be AMAZED at how little MP's know about certain subjects), but I'm sure I'll get that out another time.
Peace
Just in case anyone missed it.
https://corporateeurope.org/international-trade/2016/10/great-ceta-swindle |
"- “I’m sorry the timescales meant it wasn’t possible to have a debate … For the UK to have been seen as in any way blocking [the deal] would have left us in a very difficult position regarding [EU] member states, and of course Canada.”
And people were claiming the court verdict showed the sovereignty of parliament and were mocking those that wanted out of the EU. Clearly parliament is not sovereign enough to be able to debate this issue | | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 14:45 - Nov 5 with 1485 views | distortR |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 12:36 - Nov 5 by 1BobbyHazell |
Great shout on the Greek bailouts Distort. Any decent links?
And thank you for your generous words. |
corp.watch on siemens Greek bribery scandals. The wiki page on greek government debt, germanys role in Greece. greece pressurised to buy...digitaljournal.
I'm not too great on the web, links are beyond me! | | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 14:47 - Nov 5 with 1477 views | FDC |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 13:14 - Nov 5 by 1BobbyHazell |
Nice one Wood Hoop.
The bitterness is definitely a huge issue, we all have to be as peaceful, calm and positive as possible. I fully appreciate how difficult that can be!
I disagree with you about Labour, I think it had become a Tory Lite party. You rightly mention the NHS as a beautiful achievement but Tony Blair began the selling off of that and education so not really the party it once was. The sad/funny thing is a fella gets voted in who clearly does have more in line with old school labour values and it seems everybody f-ing hates him!! Ah well, that's all for another thread I guess.
I too feel European and believe that all the positive aspects of cross continent cooperation on many projects is a wonderful thing.
It is, as I think you allude to, the issue of the taking over and dominance by the 'money men' that is my real issue. One that has become greatly amplified by the nature of the CETA treaty and their obvious desperate rush to push it through quickly.
On that note I see that our very own International trade secretary, Liam Fox, was called to the European Scrutiny Committee (ha!) in the commons to explain why he had given CETA his backing WITHOUT CONSULTING PARLIAMENT and not allowing a parliamentary debate! He came out with this - “I’m sorry the timescales meant it wasn’t possible to have a debate … For the UK to have been seen as in any way blocking [the deal] would have left us in a very difficult position regarding [EU] member states, and of course Canada.”
This from a supposed pro Brexiter. I beg you all to take a look at the link I posted and see what he has signed us up to. Pro Brexiter!!??
Wow.
And while we're on amusing/ridiculous quotes here's one from Donald Tusk, president of the European council, on CETA - “Fortunately we live in a democratic system and democracy is less predictable than other political systems but I still prefer democracy. My prediction is there is no huge problem with European parliaments. After my talks with all 28 member states’ leaders, I have no doubt Ceta is the least controversial trade agreement you could imagine.”
Anyone with strong Remain feelings, reread that quote, go and read the research on CETA and then have an open minded reflection on where the central power base of the EU are leading us and on the seemingly common myth, widely held and vehemently protected, that the EU is the key to upholding worker's rights, working conditions, environmental concerns, democratic protection etc etc etc.
As I keep saying I'm really not looking for an argument, I'm not even trying the impossible to change Remainers to Brexiters (well maybe a little), what is important to me is that we try to genuinely learn more about what information/perspectives lie behind each others beliefs and stances we hold and see if we can find any common ground between us. I have more to say on how that can enhance our ability to hold our elected officials more accountable (you'd be AMAZED at how little MP's know about certain subjects), but I'm sure I'll get that out another time.
Peace
Just in case anyone missed it.
https://corporateeurope.org/international-trade/2016/10/great-ceta-swindle |
As I think I've said a few times before, there are plenty of us that voted Remain that loath the EU. The reason being that the Brexit campaign became a proxy vote on immigration and was in the end framed in a particular way.
Lots of us held our nose when voting, doing so only because it became increasingly obvious that the xenophobic-right stood to gain most from a Leave vote. This is born out in the politcs that has followed.
Having a referendum on this issue was crazy because it boiled down a complex issue to a simple yes or no. |  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 15:21 - Nov 5 with 1451 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 14:47 - Nov 5 by FDC |
As I think I've said a few times before, there are plenty of us that voted Remain that loath the EU. The reason being that the Brexit campaign became a proxy vote on immigration and was in the end framed in a particular way.
Lots of us held our nose when voting, doing so only because it became increasingly obvious that the xenophobic-right stood to gain most from a Leave vote. This is born out in the politcs that has followed.
Having a referendum on this issue was crazy because it boiled down a complex issue to a simple yes or no. |
Interesting to know FDC, I've learnt something new already!
I really didn't know that there were lots of Remainers who loath the EU. I know some who had some issues with it, but loathed...
My experience of Remainers is of a very passionate (at times very emotional) defence of being in the EU without calling for us to discuss what parts of it really don't serve us. I don't recall you or others doing that on are many threads over the months, I do recall plenty of 'Brexiters are all...' type posts. That has, obviously, worked both ways.
I can see how you allowed yourself to be drawn in to it being about xenophobia but I fear that those Remainers who did so may have pushed themselves into the necessary mental state of tribalism whereby they start to ignore the many aspects of being in the EU that fundamentally go against principles that they stand for.
Using you as an example, if I may. I seem to remember your talking of being very politically active at times, and even your frustration at the difficulties of rousing enough people to make real change in a community's well being. Now take a look at the CETA link and I'm sure you'll agree that many of the principles that you have fought against are being forced into law. Ending our chance to protect our own rights, our own infrastructure and our own environment. All handed over to global corporations. Permanently. To a degree that even if our children woke up to how drastic the situation had become there would be ABSOLUTELY NOTHING THEY COULD DO ABOUT IT! Nothing, no voting in a new government to change it, no using a grassroots campaign to effect new laws at Westminster, no protesting in the streets as the government wouldn't be able to change it anyway. Drastic.
I guess I'm struggling to see how you prioritise say, less Polish people being able to come over here, than that.
Have a look at the link.
Peace | | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 15:33 - Nov 5 with 1440 views | FDC |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 15:21 - Nov 5 by 1BobbyHazell |
Interesting to know FDC, I've learnt something new already!
I really didn't know that there were lots of Remainers who loath the EU. I know some who had some issues with it, but loathed...
My experience of Remainers is of a very passionate (at times very emotional) defence of being in the EU without calling for us to discuss what parts of it really don't serve us. I don't recall you or others doing that on are many threads over the months, I do recall plenty of 'Brexiters are all...' type posts. That has, obviously, worked both ways.
I can see how you allowed yourself to be drawn in to it being about xenophobia but I fear that those Remainers who did so may have pushed themselves into the necessary mental state of tribalism whereby they start to ignore the many aspects of being in the EU that fundamentally go against principles that they stand for.
Using you as an example, if I may. I seem to remember your talking of being very politically active at times, and even your frustration at the difficulties of rousing enough people to make real change in a community's well being. Now take a look at the CETA link and I'm sure you'll agree that many of the principles that you have fought against are being forced into law. Ending our chance to protect our own rights, our own infrastructure and our own environment. All handed over to global corporations. Permanently. To a degree that even if our children woke up to how drastic the situation had become there would be ABSOLUTELY NOTHING THEY COULD DO ABOUT IT! Nothing, no voting in a new government to change it, no using a grassroots campaign to effect new laws at Westminster, no protesting in the streets as the government wouldn't be able to change it anyway. Drastic.
I guess I'm struggling to see how you prioritise say, less Polish people being able to come over here, than that.
Have a look at the link.
Peace |
When I say lots of us that voted remain, I'm talking about those of us on the left. The EU is a neoliberal instrument, and in a classical sense is quite cleary an institution of the capital class. My point was that I slightly object to the suggestion that I/we are unaware of TTIP and CETA, which of course are fundamentally anti-democratic and to be fought.
The EU flag-waving liberal types that marched through London immediately after the vote are, shall we say, on a different page.
I can see how you allowed yourself to be drawn in to it being about xenophobia but I fear that those Remainers who did so may have pushed themselves into the necessary mental state of tribalism whereby they start to ignore the many aspects of being in the EU that fundamentally go against principles that they stand for.
That's rather patronising if i may say so. I don't think you'll find me vigorously defending the EU. I'm more concerned with the popular-racism that a Leave vote has unleashed, with concrete effects on people's lives. In fact there are testimonies to this on this very thread -- and I'm sure you're well aware of the spike in racist violence since the vote. The political landscape has completely changed for the worse.
Where I think I'd disagree with you is essentially on the question of pragmatic strategy. Ultimately, voting to leave the EU under a right-wing Tory government wasn't likely to improve any of the things you point to. Had Corbyn and co come out forcefully for a Leave vote, then maybe there would have been some sense in campaigning on it, and forcing a GE on the back of Leave. But for whatever reason that didn't happen.
As it was, I really can't see a progressive case for supporting a campaign led by UKIP and Boris Johnson. None of those things you've pointed to are going to be affected by Britain leaving the EU. [Post edited 5 Nov 2016 15:54]
| | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 16:09 - Nov 5 with 1401 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 15:33 - Nov 5 by FDC |
When I say lots of us that voted remain, I'm talking about those of us on the left. The EU is a neoliberal instrument, and in a classical sense is quite cleary an institution of the capital class. My point was that I slightly object to the suggestion that I/we are unaware of TTIP and CETA, which of course are fundamentally anti-democratic and to be fought.
The EU flag-waving liberal types that marched through London immediately after the vote are, shall we say, on a different page.
I can see how you allowed yourself to be drawn in to it being about xenophobia but I fear that those Remainers who did so may have pushed themselves into the necessary mental state of tribalism whereby they start to ignore the many aspects of being in the EU that fundamentally go against principles that they stand for.
That's rather patronising if i may say so. I don't think you'll find me vigorously defending the EU. I'm more concerned with the popular-racism that a Leave vote has unleashed, with concrete effects on people's lives. In fact there are testimonies to this on this very thread -- and I'm sure you're well aware of the spike in racist violence since the vote. The political landscape has completely changed for the worse.
Where I think I'd disagree with you is essentially on the question of pragmatic strategy. Ultimately, voting to leave the EU under a right-wing Tory government wasn't likely to improve any of the things you point to. Had Corbyn and co come out forcefully for a Leave vote, then maybe there would have been some sense in campaigning on it, and forcing a GE on the back of Leave. But for whatever reason that didn't happen.
As it was, I really can't see a progressive case for supporting a campaign led by UKIP and Boris Johnson. None of those things you've pointed to are going to be affected by Britain leaving the EU. [Post edited 5 Nov 2016 15:54]
|
Ok, well now I understand how you feel separate to the EU flag waving 'protesters'. I hadn't seen such definitions being spoken of on here before. I hadn't taken it for granted in the way I have expected you to take for granted the separation between me and the more xenophobic elements of Leave.
I fail to see how mentioning who was the public political face of Leave is relevant, you had Dave and George funded by Goldman Sachs! I personally didn't even watch any debates etc. Why would I watch/listen to professional duplicitous illusionists pretending to oppose each other? I tried to explain to people that Boris wasn't remotely really a Brexiter, just another actor playing his part for the show.
As I stated many times in pre vote debates, my Brexit vote wasn't about some fantasy of a sudden uprise in our lives now under a Tory government, in fact people (on both sides) focusing on it that way was a little frustrating and, to me, rather short sighted. It was about the future and the possible, albeit unlikely, time when the population realise the things that you and I take for granted about neo liberal control and wish to do something about it. Tied to the EU and the CETA type laws it is rushing through they won't be able to do anything to change who controls things and where the real power lies. The sort of Corporate Meritocracy that you and I have both opposed for many years would become enshrined as law.
So I think I agree with you that our opposition is about pragmatic strategy but, as I seem to be repeating a lot on here, how or where could the improvements come with a local sovereignty so diminished that your MP, political party or even PM could do nothing about it even if we ever decided to truly change things?
I personally think we need to keep our focus on where we are all going with this and not get caught up in all the 'dramas' being thrown around.
We've got work to do.
Peace | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
