| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? 10:30 - Feb 23 with 7871 views | taffpop |
Hi, I'm one of those who always reads but never posts but I'm breaking my golden rule today...
I read the record of Phil Sumbler's outstanding efforts at the meeting the other day and wondered, is it time to start an official appeal to enable the purchase of the shares needed to get to the "magic" 25% holding?
I'm a ST holder of 13 years standing but didn't realise the state of play until reading this. Our trust is admired worldwide, I wonder if a full on high profile campaign to raise the £4 million would gain momentum with some nifty PR and social media campaign?
Ashamed to say I actually thought I was a full member as a ST holder. I'm paying up and joining today. Just a thought....
Over and out😉 |  | | |  |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 22:20 - Feb 23 with 2073 views | Darran |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 22:09 - Feb 23 by Nookiejack |
What %s do Leigh Dineen and John Van Zeeden own? |
That's what I was wondering. |  |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 22:31 - Feb 23 with 2050 views | SwansNZ |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 22:09 - Feb 23 by Nookiejack |
What %s do Leigh Dineen and John Van Zeeden own? |
at a guess, approx 5% each, as the current ones listed above total a shade under 90% |  |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 22:32 - Feb 23 with 2047 views | SwansNZ |
Can I ask a simple question or two?...
What does 25% shareholding gain (as in what the Trust want) — does 25% give them power to stop any constitutional changes, any allocation of more shares etc? veto right to block anything? If so, and some or all of the current shareholders don’t want the trust to get this 25% holding, this is because it devalues their ability to get a maximum price for any future sale? How much would it devalue their shares?
I obviously don’t know anything about the personal finances of the shareholders, but are they not already quite wealthy? If so, and if I take a very basic example, but if a shareholder had 10% of the shares, and say these were currently valued at £10 million, then if they decided to sell 2% to the trust at £400K, they’d be left with 8% of shares, which would still be valued at £8 million, minus any loss of values, say 25%, then £6 million. Not bad for a £50K investment.
It’s all about personal gain and greed, and nothing to do with the future stability of the club, or am I missing something? | |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 22:51 - Feb 23 with 2034 views | Swanseajill |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 21:15 - Feb 23 by Darran |
Where's the list of 'all' shareholders? Anyone? |
In Columbo's pockets on the back of cigar wrappers. |  | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 22:57 - Feb 23 with 2019 views | ScoobyWho |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 22:32 - Feb 23 by SwansNZ |
Can I ask a simple question or two?...
What does 25% shareholding gain (as in what the Trust want) — does 25% give them power to stop any constitutional changes, any allocation of more shares etc? veto right to block anything? If so, and some or all of the current shareholders don’t want the trust to get this 25% holding, this is because it devalues their ability to get a maximum price for any future sale? How much would it devalue their shares?
I obviously don’t know anything about the personal finances of the shareholders, but are they not already quite wealthy? If so, and if I take a very basic example, but if a shareholder had 10% of the shares, and say these were currently valued at £10 million, then if they decided to sell 2% to the trust at £400K, they’d be left with 8% of shares, which would still be valued at £8 million, minus any loss of values, say 25%, then £6 million. Not bad for a £50K investment.
It’s all about personal gain and greed, and nothing to do with the future stability of the club, or am I missing something? |
Thats the way most of us seem to see it. But I would be pleased to hear from any other more informed people on this matter. For now this is my view as well. |  |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 23:12 - Feb 23 with 2010 views | Darran |
Mr & Mrs Morgan 225,000 shares
Brian Katzen 200,000 shares
Swansea City Supporters Trust 200,000 shares
Huw Jenkins 125,000 shares
Robert Davies 100,000 shares
Leigh Dineen 50,000 shares
John Van Zweden 50,000 shares | |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 23:23 - Feb 23 with 1998 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 22:57 - Feb 23 by ScoobyWho |
Thats the way most of us seem to see it. But I would be pleased to hear from any other more informed people on this matter. For now this is my view as well. |
That's the way I see it as well and why you see more and more posts about people referring to their greed - rather than why they went into this in the first place and why people are now starting to forget this | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 23:33 - Feb 23 with 1984 views | dameedna |
Mr & Mrs Morgan 24%
Brian Katzen 21%
Swansea City Supporters Trust 21%
Huw Jenkins 13%
Robert Davies 11%
Leigh Dineen 5%
John Van Zweden 5%
To get control buyers need 51%
Katzen 21, Dineen 5, Davies 11, JVZ 5 is 41%
To get control another one of morgan, jenks or trust has to sell - jenks will do making 54% |  | | |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 11:21 - Feb 24 with 1902 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 23:12 - Feb 23 by Darran |
Mr & Mrs Morgan 225,000 shares
Brian Katzen 200,000 shares
Swansea City Supporters Trust 200,000 shares
Huw Jenkins 125,000 shares
Robert Davies 100,000 shares
Leigh Dineen 50,000 shares
John Van Zweden 50,000 shares |
These shares total 950,000 whereas I thought original number of shares were 1,000,000?
Is the background to this the Mel Nurse 50,000 shares? In that instead of the Other Shareholders allowing the Trust to buy these directly off Mel Nurse(Trust's share would have increased to 25%)- they were in fact bought back by the club - directly from Mel Nurse and cancelled.
This meant the Trust % share of the remaining shares - increased from 20% to circa 21.1%.
Does anyone know if this is the background? | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 10:14 - Feb 25 with 1848 views | dameedna |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 11:21 - Feb 24 by Nookiejack |
These shares total 950,000 whereas I thought original number of shares were 1,000,000?
Is the background to this the Mel Nurse 50,000 shares? In that instead of the Other Shareholders allowing the Trust to buy these directly off Mel Nurse(Trust's share would have increased to 25%)- they were in fact bought back by the club - directly from Mel Nurse and cancelled.
This meant the Trust % share of the remaining shares - increased from 20% to circa 21.1%.
Does anyone know if this is the background? |
The lost 50,000? that is strange | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 11:15 - Feb 25 with 1836 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 10:14 - Feb 25 by dameedna |
The lost 50,000? that is strange |
I think it is to do with the Mel Murse shares being bought back by the club (Swansea City Footbal 2002 Ltd) and the shares cancelled. Hence the Trust's share proportionally increases for example:-
initial Trust share = 200,000/1,000,000 = 20%
.....then as Mel Nurse's shares get cancelled this results in :-
200,000/950,000 = 21.1% Trust stake
It would be fantastic if anyone who actually understands background on this can confirm. | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 11:42 - Feb 25 with 1826 views | Uxbridge |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 11:15 - Feb 25 by Nookiejack |
I think it is to do with the Mel Murse shares being bought back by the club (Swansea City Footbal 2002 Ltd) and the shares cancelled. Hence the Trust's share proportionally increases for example:-
initial Trust share = 200,000/1,000,000 = 20%
.....then as Mel Nurse's shares get cancelled this results in :-
200,000/950,000 = 21.1% Trust stake
It would be fantastic if anyone who actually understands background on this can confirm. |
In fairness it has been covered, ad infinitum, on here previously. Mel sold his shares back to the club for £400k and they were subsequently cancelled. |  |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 13:44 - Feb 25 with 1796 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 11:42 - Feb 25 by Uxbridge |
In fairness it has been covered, ad infinitum, on here previously. Mel sold his shares back to the club for £400k and they were subsequently cancelled. |
Thank's Uxbridge and that makes sense
Has the Leigh Dineen share acquisition also been previously covered on here? I have seen threads which suggest he bought his shares at a later stage from when the Other Shareholders bought theirs.
Did 1. the club either issue additional shares which Leigh Dineen then acquired or 2. Leigh Dineen buy his shares off existing shareholders? (With regards to 1. and 2. has anyone looked at Companies House record of movements in the share base over time and previously provided comment?) or 3. Leigh Dineen buy them from another shareholder that wanted to sell his/her shares. (Noting that due to pre-emption rights the Other existing shareholders would have had to foresake their legal right to take up their % share of these shares available for purchase).
If bought from 1. existing shareholders then the Trust should see an audit trail of this in its bank accounts. I.e. Leigh Dineen would have paid existing shareholders (including the Trust) directly for their pro-rata share of the 5%.
If 2. bought from the club then Leigh Dineen would have paid for these shares directly to the club.
If 3. he would have paid for them directly to the 'Another shareholder.
In all cases was he allowed to buy his shares for say A. in lieu of services either himself or his company had provided to the club for free or B. something to do with him becoming Commercial Director of the club - as a motivational tool and noting the other Directors would be holding shares - so putting him in a position as the rest of the 'Management Team' with stakes in the club.
I assume the Trust along with the Other Shareholders would have had to authorise anyone of the three options above - as would have diluted down their shareholding %s. Did somebody say on a previous thread/s - whether the Trust had a record of who authorised this on behalf of the Trust? If indeed the Trust did authorise any of the three options.
I have previously read up about Capital Gains Tax and apparently it's calculation is dependent on the market value you paid for the shares - not the price you paid for the shares. So interestingly if the shares were 1. in lieu of services provided - may be different to the market value of the shares at the time. Hence he will have to demonstrate to the HMRC (when he sells his shares) an audit trail of the market value of the shares at the time when he bought them. Not the cost of what he paid for the shares.
Also if the Trust (along with the Other Shareholders) authorised option 1. - would expect there to be an audit trail/record that services provided in lieu of shareholding equalled market value of the shareholding at the time - if option 1. was the case.
Similarly if option 2. of 3. was taken with regards to incentivising him as Commercial Director - a record of the justification for this - should be somewhere on file - including in the Trust's records.
Noting the value of 5% seems a lot now but wouldn't have been at the time. So used more as an incentive to motivate Leigh Dineen - along with other Directors. If option 2 or 3 was actually the case.
In my view just completes the full jigsaw of how we have got to current share-holdings in place. So really appreciate if anyone has got any background on the above. | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 17:14 - Feb 25 with 1767 views | Uxbridge |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 13:44 - Feb 25 by Nookiejack |
Thank's Uxbridge and that makes sense
Has the Leigh Dineen share acquisition also been previously covered on here? I have seen threads which suggest he bought his shares at a later stage from when the Other Shareholders bought theirs.
Did 1. the club either issue additional shares which Leigh Dineen then acquired or 2. Leigh Dineen buy his shares off existing shareholders? (With regards to 1. and 2. has anyone looked at Companies House record of movements in the share base over time and previously provided comment?) or 3. Leigh Dineen buy them from another shareholder that wanted to sell his/her shares. (Noting that due to pre-emption rights the Other existing shareholders would have had to foresake their legal right to take up their % share of these shares available for purchase).
If bought from 1. existing shareholders then the Trust should see an audit trail of this in its bank accounts. I.e. Leigh Dineen would have paid existing shareholders (including the Trust) directly for their pro-rata share of the 5%.
If 2. bought from the club then Leigh Dineen would have paid for these shares directly to the club.
If 3. he would have paid for them directly to the 'Another shareholder.
In all cases was he allowed to buy his shares for say A. in lieu of services either himself or his company had provided to the club for free or B. something to do with him becoming Commercial Director of the club - as a motivational tool and noting the other Directors would be holding shares - so putting him in a position as the rest of the 'Management Team' with stakes in the club.
I assume the Trust along with the Other Shareholders would have had to authorise anyone of the three options above - as would have diluted down their shareholding %s. Did somebody say on a previous thread/s - whether the Trust had a record of who authorised this on behalf of the Trust? If indeed the Trust did authorise any of the three options.
I have previously read up about Capital Gains Tax and apparently it's calculation is dependent on the market value you paid for the shares - not the price you paid for the shares. So interestingly if the shares were 1. in lieu of services provided - may be different to the market value of the shares at the time. Hence he will have to demonstrate to the HMRC (when he sells his shares) an audit trail of the market value of the shares at the time when he bought them. Not the cost of what he paid for the shares.
Also if the Trust (along with the Other Shareholders) authorised option 1. - would expect there to be an audit trail/record that services provided in lieu of shareholding equalled market value of the shareholding at the time - if option 1. was the case.
Similarly if option 2. of 3. was taken with regards to incentivising him as Commercial Director - a record of the justification for this - should be somewhere on file - including in the Trust's records.
Noting the value of 5% seems a lot now but wouldn't have been at the time. So used more as an incentive to motivate Leigh Dineen - along with other Directors. If option 2 or 3 was actually the case.
In my view just completes the full jigsaw of how we have got to current share-holdings in place. So really appreciate if anyone has got any background on the above. |
I don't know the details. Jacko's the expert on this. Should probably do some research, alhough it doesn't really matter anymore ... at least apart from the PR aspect. | |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 13:10 - Feb 27 with 1713 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 17:14 - Feb 25 by Uxbridge |
I don't know the details. Jacko's the expert on this. Should probably do some research, alhough it doesn't really matter anymore ... at least apart from the PR aspect. |
Thanks Uxbridge
Hopefully Jackonicko sees this thread and can fill us in on the history | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 18:20 - Feb 27 with 1645 views | jackonicko |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 13:10 - Feb 27 by Nookiejack |
Thanks Uxbridge
Hopefully Jackonicko sees this thread and can fill us in on the history |
Hi - seen the thread so will add something later - maybe tomorrow. I'm overseas, so will need to do from memory as don't have the files with me.
However, in summary, it was nearly all done through the issue of new sharess at various points in time. There have been very few instances of transfers. |  | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 18:45 - Feb 27 with 1632 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 18:20 - Feb 27 by jackonicko |
Hi - seen the thread so will add something later - maybe tomorrow. I'm overseas, so will need to do from memory as don't have the files with me.
However, in summary, it was nearly all done through the issue of new sharess at various points in time. There have been very few instances of transfers. |
Thanks Jackonicko | | | |
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