| Jimmy Shan 08:18 - Jan 19 with 9743 views | IOMDale |
An interesting little read from Jimmy Shan, talking about his coaching career.
https://trainingground.guru/articles/academy-to-first-team-jimmy-shans-lessons-f
I’ve no doubt the issues about his time here are real and he accepts himself that he should have done a lot more research before he joined. However, he has to accept that himself and Robbie got it badly wrong in terms of recruitment and style when they did have money to spend in that January window. |  | | |  |
| Jimmy Shan on 09:18 - Jan 19 with 6921 views | DaleyBrent |
Think the below is pretty scathing and worrying. I’ve made the point before that our recruitment is one of the main drivers behind where we are now. To be a professional football and not have a recruitment network is concerning and something that needs addressing before we regress any further:
“There was also no recruitment team and we didn’t have anyone out scouting. We were around the play-offs at Christmas time (in 2021/22) and lost our two best players - Jake Beesley to Blackpool and Aaron Morley to Bolton - but there was nobody next on the list.
So we were trying to fit in watching bits and pieces on Wyscout, while preparing, playing and reviewing games on the Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday-Tuesday cycle.
There are some great people at the club. The owners were fans and had done an amazing job; the players worked hard and the staff were good. The analysis boys, Callum Jones (now at Burnley) and Adam Walton (now at Blackpool), were as good as any I’ve worked with.
But there were things I would have known if I'd done my due diligence." |  | | |
| Jimmy Shan on 10:03 - Jan 19 with 6839 views | AtThePeake |
| Jimmy Shan on 09:18 - Jan 19 by DaleyBrent |
Think the below is pretty scathing and worrying. I’ve made the point before that our recruitment is one of the main drivers behind where we are now. To be a professional football and not have a recruitment network is concerning and something that needs addressing before we regress any further:
“There was also no recruitment team and we didn’t have anyone out scouting. We were around the play-offs at Christmas time (in 2021/22) and lost our two best players - Jake Beesley to Blackpool and Aaron Morley to Bolton - but there was nobody next on the list.
So we were trying to fit in watching bits and pieces on Wyscout, while preparing, playing and reviewing games on the Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday-Tuesday cycle.
There are some great people at the club. The owners were fans and had done an amazing job; the players worked hard and the staff were good. The analysis boys, Callum Jones (now at Burnley) and Adam Walton (now at Blackpool), were as good as any I’ve worked with.
But there were things I would have known if I'd done my due diligence." |
His comments about the training ground were even more worrying to me. It shows just how important it is that we have a facility that's fit for purpose. I know people were annoyed by Simon bringing it up in December because it isn't the priority at this second, but it is right that it should be somewhere near the top of the list. |  |
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| Jimmy Shan on 10:14 - Jan 19 with 6806 views | D_Alien |
| Jimmy Shan on 10:03 - Jan 19 by AtThePeake |
His comments about the training ground were even more worrying to me. It shows just how important it is that we have a facility that's fit for purpose. I know people were annoyed by Simon bringing it up in December because it isn't the priority at this second, but it is right that it should be somewhere near the top of the list. |
As i said yesterday, failure to be at least starting to plan for our own training facility would also have fans annoyed, but doing so doesn't exclude being very much concerned with the here and now; only those incapable of holding more than one thought in their head at a time might think so |  |
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| Jimmy Shan on 10:21 - Jan 19 with 6774 views | DaleyBrent |
| Jimmy Shan on 10:03 - Jan 19 by AtThePeake |
His comments about the training ground were even more worrying to me. It shows just how important it is that we have a facility that's fit for purpose. I know people were annoyed by Simon bringing it up in December because it isn't the priority at this second, but it is right that it should be somewhere near the top of the list. |
Just as worrying for sure.
A managers job at this level is hard enough, never mind a below par training facility and no recruitment infrastructure to work with. We have no marginal gains on any of the league and are pretty much reliant on a manager working miracles to keep us afloat.
I think in Jim Bentley, we’ve got a manager that is up for the fight and is willing to crack on with these restrictions. But to give us any fighting chance of progressing as a football club again we really do need to resolve these 2 things. Easier said than done of course but it has to be our aim as a football club. | | | |
| Jimmy Shan on 10:44 - Jan 19 with 6684 views | HullDale |
When Hilly took over, it was well documented how far ahead of the pack we were in terms of nutrition, sports science & analysis. That coupled with 'no fear' opened the door to our most successful ever period.
What has happened since is the game has evolved - other clubs caught us up, and then overtook us, on the behaviours that gave us a competitive edge.
In the same way that Hilly hasn't moved with the times, neither have we, and its probably a big reason why both parties are where they are today. |  | | |
| Jimmy Shan on 10:52 - Jan 19 with 6636 views | Dalenet |
| Jimmy Shan on 10:14 - Jan 19 by D_Alien |
As i said yesterday, failure to be at least starting to plan for our own training facility would also have fans annoyed, but doing so doesn't exclude being very much concerned with the here and now; only those incapable of holding more than one thought in their head at a time might think so |
We have had a the start of a plan for a training ground for over 10 years. Remember when we all first walked to Accrington in driving rain to raise money for Bowlee. Of course it was never enough and the club has struggled to make progress. But Boards of all make ups since then have told us that they have been trying to work with the council on a site.
In 10+ years we have not had the funding plan to make it work. And I am sure some Board members saw other priorities. But We have also had 10 years to seek grant funding to support such a plan - and we can't just expect a new investor to pop along and stump up a few million to pay for it in full. A community asset needs a full funding plan |  | | |
| Jimmy Shan on 11:10 - Jan 19 with 6590 views | Dalenet |
The comments from Jimmy are a worry. Andrew Kelly has always supported the football side of the club and worked tirelessly to ensure they have resources. But he was seriously ill. I wonder whether some of this was disbanded to save money during the covid period?
Anyhow, I do think we need more football nous in the building and Simon was clear that he is putting an awful lot of time into the club just to manage the commercials/legals/costs etc. and doesn't have the bandwidth to do more. Quite understandable. But we did decide to drop the role of CEO and instead replace with a COO. So appoint a football director and give them a brief on the football infrastructure. Give EBJ some cover and some support. EBJ will know what Morecambe had for example - we should at least try and replicate that. Can we find a few firms to help sponsor the cost? | | | |
| Jimmy Shan on 11:46 - Jan 19 with 6495 views | James1980 |
Wasn't Bottomley mocked for saying other clubs board members commented on our lack of training ground? | |
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| Jimmy Shan on 12:04 - Jan 19 with 6437 views | Newbury_Dale |
Putting the concerns to one side for a nano second, I thought that was a really good read overall. | | | |
| Jimmy Shan on 12:34 - Jan 19 with 6318 views | HullDale |
| Jimmy Shan on 11:10 - Jan 19 by Dalenet |
The comments from Jimmy are a worry. Andrew Kelly has always supported the football side of the club and worked tirelessly to ensure they have resources. But he was seriously ill. I wonder whether some of this was disbanded to save money during the covid period?
Anyhow, I do think we need more football nous in the building and Simon was clear that he is putting an awful lot of time into the club just to manage the commercials/legals/costs etc. and doesn't have the bandwidth to do more. Quite understandable. But we did decide to drop the role of CEO and instead replace with a COO. So appoint a football director and give them a brief on the football infrastructure. Give EBJ some cover and some support. EBJ will know what Morecambe had for example - we should at least try and replicate that. Can we find a few firms to help sponsor the cost? |
After the relative adrenaline rush of seeing the club advertise sponsorship for Danny Lloyd when he signed (& promoted the sponsor on social media too - genuinely a great effort) we saw them forget to advertise sponsorship for Eastwood mere days later when he signed.
Trusting the people responsible to find sponsors for a directorship role feels like a leap from our current reality / capability / desire sadly. [Post edited 19 Jan 2023 12:35]
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| Jimmy Shan on 13:38 - Jan 19 with 6133 views | 442Dale |
| Jimmy Shan on 10:52 - Jan 19 by Dalenet |
We have had a the start of a plan for a training ground for over 10 years. Remember when we all first walked to Accrington in driving rain to raise money for Bowlee. Of course it was never enough and the club has struggled to make progress. But Boards of all make ups since then have told us that they have been trying to work with the council on a site.
In 10+ years we have not had the funding plan to make it work. And I am sure some Board members saw other priorities. But We have also had 10 years to seek grant funding to support such a plan - and we can't just expect a new investor to pop along and stump up a few million to pay for it in full. A community asset needs a full funding plan |
The club have talked time and again regarding training facilities. Progress has been limited.
2010
https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/members/rochdale/news/8287/bowlee-training-facilit
2014
https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/members/rochdale/news/35617/fans-forum--review
<<“ The board were asked if we were any closer to getting any training facilities. Andrew Kelly stated that a sum of £20,000 had been spent upgrading the facilities at Rochdale C.C. that were being used by the first team at the moment, but the club were currently investigating the possibility of venues at Matthew Moss and Springfield Park, but plans were very much in the initial stage and if they came to fruition, it would be in time for the 2017-18 season.”>> |  |
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| Jimmy Shan on 13:51 - Jan 19 with 6083 views | fourfourtwo |
Top and bottom of it is that it’s an absolute disgrace that training facilities still haven’t been properly resolved.
There’s been near constant talk of this for 20 years and in reality we’re no further along now than we were in 2003.
Rome wasn’t built in a day, but I bet they’d built a lot in 20 years! | | | |
| Jimmy Shan on 14:57 - Jan 19 with 5914 views | 49thseason |
I was Chairman of the Springfield Park Friends group at the time of these discussions. There was an idea to build a Free School for elite athletes on the old pitches and to redevelop the old stone barn, IIRC, we met RAFC twice and got what I can describe as a lukewarm reception to the idea that they might be able to share the facility with the new school if it went ahead, It didn't mainly because the instigators (who were from Halifax) couldn't raise the required finance from Government.
As always the problem boils down to money and unfortunately we have a council that doesn't think sport is important despite having some of the worst mortality rates in the country,
I wish the Board well in its search for the ideal facility, but I'm not holding my breath. |  | | |
| Jimmy Shan on 15:28 - Jan 19 with 5803 views | James1980 |
Regarding improved training facilities has the attitude been amongst some 'Not for the likes of us'? | |
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| Jimmy Shan on 15:29 - Jan 19 with 5794 views | EllDale |
Another thing to strike me was the comment that a major difference between Academy and the EFL was the importance of setpieces.
They weren't a priority at all in the Academies but a major factor in "mens football".
Perhaps that's why we couldn't defend corners and free kicks into the box. | | | |
| Jimmy Shan on 15:48 - Jan 19 with 5734 views | 49thseason |
| Jimmy Shan on 15:29 - Jan 19 by EllDale |
Another thing to strike me was the comment that a major difference between Academy and the EFL was the importance of setpieces.
They weren't a priority at all in the Academies but a major factor in "mens football".
Perhaps that's why we couldn't defend corners and free kicks into the box. |
Academy football at the top levels has a lot to answer for. Prem clubs have upwards of 50 kids in their 18+ groups and know full well that only 1 or 2 will make it into the 1st team squad. they then dump players into the EFL who are 19,20 , 21 years old and have never been involved in anything other than games against similar teams on perfect pitches and with little at stake. Where technical skill and "vision" are valued more than aggression, attitude and physicality. You can imagine the culture shock when these lads arrive in rainy Rochdale and start playing against 30 year old pro's who know every trick in the book when they haven't even been told about tricks.... | | | |
| Jimmy Shan on 16:59 - Jan 19 with 5587 views | Sheffield_dale |
| Jimmy Shan on 10:44 - Jan 19 by HullDale |
When Hilly took over, it was well documented how far ahead of the pack we were in terms of nutrition, sports science & analysis. That coupled with 'no fear' opened the door to our most successful ever period.
What has happened since is the game has evolved - other clubs caught us up, and then overtook us, on the behaviours that gave us a competitive edge.
In the same way that Hilly hasn't moved with the times, neither have we, and its probably a big reason why both parties are where they are today. |
Exactly my thoughts. I call it "Big Samification" where Alladyce was before his time and brought success. Others copied and did it better and now he seems outdated. Same has happened with Hill. One of the reasons why we must not let past (great) history influence him being reappointed imo | | | |
| Jimmy Shan on 17:23 - Jan 19 with 5523 views | D_Alien |
| Jimmy Shan on 10:52 - Jan 19 by Dalenet |
We have had a the start of a plan for a training ground for over 10 years. Remember when we all first walked to Accrington in driving rain to raise money for Bowlee. Of course it was never enough and the club has struggled to make progress. But Boards of all make ups since then have told us that they have been trying to work with the council on a site.
In 10+ years we have not had the funding plan to make it work. And I am sure some Board members saw other priorities. But We have also had 10 years to seek grant funding to support such a plan - and we can't just expect a new investor to pop along and stump up a few million to pay for it in full. A community asset needs a full funding plan |
Whilst perfectly true, the criticism by some was directed against THIS board and THIS chairman, who've been spending the past 18 months firefighting what we all know about so barely needs repeating
Such criticism, in regard to a training facility, is therefore not just off kilter but positively objectionable | |
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| Jimmy Shan on 17:47 - Jan 19 with 5464 views | 442Dale |
| Jimmy Shan on 17:23 - Jan 19 by D_Alien |
Whilst perfectly true, the criticism by some was directed against THIS board and THIS chairman, who've been spending the past 18 months firefighting what we all know about so barely needs repeating
Such criticism, in regard to a training facility, is therefore not just off kilter but positively objectionable |
The current board have to deal with the results of mistakes made in the past. At the same time, like any other board over the years, they need to be open to constructive criticism, dealing with valid concerns and being able to acknowledge where things could be better.
That’s been the biggest problem at this football club off the pitch for a long time. There’s always a reason to deflect criticism or suggestions how we could improve. Changing that is the greatest change we could make. Culture.
The posts on here by DaleBars are a refreshing change. | |
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| Jimmy Shan on 17:52 - Jan 19 with 5459 views | D_Alien |
| Jimmy Shan on 17:47 - Jan 19 by 442Dale |
The current board have to deal with the results of mistakes made in the past. At the same time, like any other board over the years, they need to be open to constructive criticism, dealing with valid concerns and being able to acknowledge where things could be better.
That’s been the biggest problem at this football club off the pitch for a long time. There’s always a reason to deflect criticism or suggestions how we could improve. Changing that is the greatest change we could make. Culture.
The posts on here by DaleBars are a refreshing change. |
Absolutely agree, and as you and most sensible people will know, i've been an advocate of that for a very long time, so it's good to see things starting to move in that direction | |
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| Jimmy Shan on 18:00 - Jan 19 with 5428 views | 442Dale |
| Jimmy Shan on 17:52 - Jan 19 by D_Alien |
Absolutely agree, and as you and most sensible people will know, i've been an advocate of that for a very long time, so it's good to see things starting to move in that direction |
Yeah, things like the Dale Bar contributions and the kit panel illustrate positive progression, such a culture should be seen across all aspects of the club.
Fitzo’s article will hopefully be viewed as a useful piece of detailed supporter opinion which they can take on board. Defensiveness is not an option, we’re all in this together. | |
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| Jimmy Shan on 18:14 - Jan 19 with 5387 views | NorthernDale |
I often wondered, why we have not worked with Hopwood Hall College in Middleton to develop the facilities there for both the Dale and Hopwood Hall College, it is a fairly big site, with existing facilities, that could be developed. | | | |
| Jimmy Shan on 18:23 - Jan 19 with 5366 views | 442Dale |
| Jimmy Shan on 18:14 - Jan 19 by NorthernDale |
I often wondered, why we have not worked with Hopwood Hall College in Middleton to develop the facilities there for both the Dale and Hopwood Hall College, it is a fairly big site, with existing facilities, that could be developed. |
Barrow trained there for a good number of years and we have used it in the past. It is strange why we haven’t made it a more permanent location to train over the years. | |
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| Jimmy Shan on 18:23 - Jan 19 with 5366 views | EllDale |
I believe that Barrow train at Hopwood Hall (or did) so presumably it’s fit for purpose. | | | |
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