| Good Luck UK 12:13 - Dec 12 with 65795 views | PlanetHonneywood |
For the Eze, not the Pugh!
#votewarburton
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| Good Luck UK on 19:08 - Dec 14 with 1918 views | flynnbo |
| Good Luck UK on 19:04 - Dec 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Labour lost because of
A) it’s Brexit stance
B) The false perception of Corbyn.
C) The false perception that it’s Manifesto was unaffordable.
D) A disunified PLP
The manifesto (costs aside) was almost universally popular amongst everyone until we told them it was Labour and Corbyn’s policy.
This isn’t the opinion of a keyboard commentator, this is the opinion of someone who has been knocking on doors for the the last four years from Darlington to Falmouth.
Our failure, and I say I as an employee of the Labour Party who has just lost his job, was a weakness in dealing with false narratives and instead acting the martyr which was only really appreciated by the Labour bubble. By those false narratives I mean:
Labour skinted the country in 2008, Labour's manifesto was unaffordable, Corbyn is a IRA / Hamas / Iranian sympathiser, Corbyn and Labour are antisemitic.
For those Labour supporters who are blaming Corbyn, consider this; Blair (Centre Right), Brown (Centrist), Miliband (Soft Left), all got fewer votes than Corbyn and were all equally vilified in their time, except Blair who only copped it near the end when the Tabloids dropped their support of him. Whoever the next leader is, they will be subject to the same vilification because it is the system that is rigged. Labour under Corbyn tried to work outside the system by developing a Community and Grassroots based organising structure but sadly these take a decade to bed in, while we tried to do it in 3 years and under the phenomenon of Brexit. I truly believe that if the Tories didn’t have ‘Get Brexit Done’ to fall back on it would have been a Labour majority, with Corbyn or otherwise.
Anyway, best of luck to everyone. I am a big believer that as a country we get the government we deserve ultimately. [Post edited 14 Dec 2019 19:29]
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Sorry to hear about your job, mate. |  | | |
| Good Luck UK on 19:10 - Dec 14 with 1901 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Good Luck UK on 19:08 - Dec 14 by flynnbo |
Sorry to hear about your job, mate. |
Thanks, but don't feel too sorry for me as I would have lost it if he'd won too so I knew what was coming. [Post edited 14 Dec 2019 19:15]
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| Good Luck UK on 19:25 - Dec 14 with 1877 views | AnonymousR |
| Good Luck UK on 14:18 - Dec 14 by essextaxiboy |
But they dont really hope they are wrong................ do they?
But
1/ Brexit is a process, we will leave in 7 weeks completing stage 1 . Judge stage 2 when it does or doesnt happen . Conjecture now is just the death throes of project fear.
2/ 31K New Nurses , 19K retained nurses who stats tell us would have left over the period the balance to the NHS pot . The bus money is promised .
3/ Scotland morally should probably get a chance to vote . There will have been a material change in their situation . But equally they have to prove they can make a go of it first , a sensible budget without reliance on the Barnett formula , improved education and health management , a plan for defence . They should also have a chance to see how Brexit looks after a few years . Promise a vote in 3 years time , providing all is in place with a 2 year transition ...
4/ Same as Scotland
5/ The economy will not go gangbusters or collapse overnight . We only need to keep pace with the major EU countries really to not "lose out" ,but hopefully better over time.
6/ The country will come back together naturally , but it requires in the first place "losers consent" . In every one of the last 5 years the country has had a chance to vote for our direction of travel and choose this direction every time . It will be easier if everyone was on board . Digging your heels in only hurts your feet .... |
We won't leave in 7 weeks. We will be confirming the agreement to leave in December 2020. That won't stop the PM from coming out of 10 Downing Street on 1st February, stand at a podium and say it's done. I'd bank on him sending the confirmation to the EU and signing it this time.
The problems start from that point on though. As suggested earlier in the thread, since the arrangements from 1/1/21 aren't in place and are HIGHLY unlikely to be in place the really hard work starts now.
For example, Macron has asked for standardisation of UK exports to EU standards. This will be difficult for DexEu to agree with BEIS. The PM has suggested standardisation is on the cards according to Varadkar meaning the softest of super-soft Brexit. As I suggested the other day, horse trading over market access has started - Frederiksen wants access for the Danish fleet to UK waters as a trade-off for access to Denmark.
To retain the 19k existing nurses, will require significant workforce planning. Up to 17k vacancies exist at any time, as well as a substantial increase in de-registration (called invalidation size 2016). With almost a quarter of UK nurses being foreign nationals, the immigration policy and post leave EU registration requirements are likely to place further pressure. It is achievable but very difficult, especially since the removal of the bursary means the trend of new nursing students has been to fall since 2010.
The relationship with Scotland and NI WILL become more strained. NI in particular since the WA will place a border in the Irish Sea for goods and services and it can't wait 2 years. If trouble starts again, the PM will be held accountable as the man who broke the GFA.
The forecasts of the economic impact of leaving which have been published all confirm that the UK will suffer as a result of leaving. The extent will be determined before December 2020 and it's unlikely to be positive reading for the new government.
I'm not sure what 'choose this direction every time' means? As mentioned previously, the popular vote in this election was to remain (as it was in 2017 and in 2018) and the expectation that people who disagree will simply change their mind is naive in the extreme.
People who voted remain know they've lost and congratulations to the people who voted leave. The PM simply needs to get everyone to agree what that leave looks like. Simply. If it means BRINO and the softest of soft EUExits, he is more likely to gain a majority and, with the ERG de-clawed with the larger majority he has a better opportunity. As you expect people to change their minds, is it reasonable to expect arch hard Brexit leavers to change theirs too? |  | | |
| Good Luck UK on 19:37 - Dec 14 with 1842 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
Bazz
I think that's far too simplistic, labours problems were/are much deeper.
What's more important now it where and how do they rebuild.
I don't see anyone in the Labour cabinet that nailed they flag to the remain mast and JC able to take them forward. |  |
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| Good Luck UK on 19:47 - Dec 14 with 1805 views | pastieR |
| Good Luck UK on 14:02 - Dec 14 by MedwayR |
“You see us “remoaners” have spent three and a half years now telling you Brexit was wrong”
That’s the problem you see, you haven’t tried reasoning or understanding other people’s opinions, just telling them they’re wrong. After a while people stop listening if you’re unable to make a reasonable case for your point of view, hence you get labelled a remoaner.
As for your post, you seem to be confusing people who voted leave with the government. You come across as rather irrational and unable to accept other people’s views and choices, it’s called democracy and I’d expect you to understand that by now. |
I have (i'm a Lib Dem), I understand why people are pissed off, but I think Brexit is the chance for the rich to get richer and reduce our working rights, so I'm never going to stop fighting the argument, even though I believe people have a right to think differently. (which i believe democracy is all about).
I also firmly believe the people at the top now, don't give a shit about us, a quote from britain unchainged by raab et al pretty much sums up what they think about us “The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music.”
However the saddest thing to me was out campaigning seeing the obscene wealth in central London, which probably belongs to people who have never had to lift a finger in life compared to the poverty of people who are probably some of the hardest working people in this country.
So i'll be out again in 5 years, trying to make the argument, but if people choose to ignore it, it will make me depressed, but I will accept their choice.
But what I will never accept is that the tories care about democracy, until there is electoral reform and every vote counts;
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| Good Luck UK on 19:51 - Dec 14 with 1801 views | Ned_Kennedys |
Corbyn and his supporters are blaming everyone but themselves. A number of Labour MPs and ex MPs are saying Corbyn was more of an issue on the doorsteps than Brexit. Easy to blame the media for picking on poor Jeremy but Johnson hardly got an easy ride did he? |  | | |
| Good Luck UK on 19:59 - Dec 14 with 1779 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Good Luck UK on 19:47 - Dec 14 by pastieR |
I have (i'm a Lib Dem), I understand why people are pissed off, but I think Brexit is the chance for the rich to get richer and reduce our working rights, so I'm never going to stop fighting the argument, even though I believe people have a right to think differently. (which i believe democracy is all about).
I also firmly believe the people at the top now, don't give a shit about us, a quote from britain unchainged by raab et al pretty much sums up what they think about us “The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music.”
However the saddest thing to me was out campaigning seeing the obscene wealth in central London, which probably belongs to people who have never had to lift a finger in life compared to the poverty of people who are probably some of the hardest working people in this country.
So i'll be out again in 5 years, trying to make the argument, but if people choose to ignore it, it will make me depressed, but I will accept their choice.
But what I will never accept is that the tories care about democracy, until there is electoral reform and every vote counts;
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Wanting a proportional system is all well and good but then we had that in the referendum and the LD's and SNP did not accept the result. [Post edited 14 Dec 2019 20:03]
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| Good Luck UK on 20:14 - Dec 14 with 1753 views | flynnbo |
| Good Luck UK on 14:02 - Dec 14 by MedwayR |
“You see us “remoaners” have spent three and a half years now telling you Brexit was wrong”
That’s the problem you see, you haven’t tried reasoning or understanding other people’s opinions, just telling them they’re wrong. After a while people stop listening if you’re unable to make a reasonable case for your point of view, hence you get labelled a remoaner.
As for your post, you seem to be confusing people who voted leave with the government. You come across as rather irrational and unable to accept other people’s views and choices, it’s called democracy and I’d expect you to understand that by now. |
Who the feck are you to call me irrational? | | | |
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| Good Luck UK on 20:18 - Dec 14 with 1733 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Good Luck UK on 19:51 - Dec 14 by Ned_Kennedys |
Corbyn and his supporters are blaming everyone but themselves. A number of Labour MPs and ex MPs are saying Corbyn was more of an issue on the doorsteps than Brexit. Easy to blame the media for picking on poor Jeremy but Johnson hardly got an easy ride did he? |
Very interested to see any example of Corbyn blaming anyone at all actually. If you have a link please post it. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 20:27 - Dec 14 with 1712 views | loftboy |
| Good Luck UK on 20:18 - Dec 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Very interested to see any example of Corbyn blaming anyone at all actually. If you have a link please post it. |
He blamed the media and Brexit in his speech yesterday. |  |
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| Good Luck UK on 20:30 - Dec 14 with 1700 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Good Luck UK on 20:27 - Dec 14 by loftboy |
He blamed the media and Brexit in his speech yesterday. |
I was there. He really didn’t. He said he been given a rough time by the media and said he’d tried to bridge the gap between Remainers and Leavers but he never blamed anyone. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 20:39 - Dec 14 with 1673 views | QPR_John |
| Good Luck UK on 20:30 - Dec 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I was there. He really didn’t. He said he been given a rough time by the media and said he’d tried to bridge the gap between Remainers and Leavers but he never blamed anyone. |
So he does not blame the press for giving him a rough time [Post edited 14 Dec 2019 20:39]
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| Good Luck UK on 20:42 - Dec 14 with 1652 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Good Luck UK on 20:39 - Dec 14 by QPR_John |
So he does not blame the press for giving him a rough time [Post edited 14 Dec 2019 20:39]
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He talks about the abuse he receives, but doesn’t say that’s why he lost the election. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 20:44 - Dec 14 with 1648 views | connell10 |
| Good Luck UK on 19:51 - Dec 14 by Ned_Kennedys |
Corbyn and his supporters are blaming everyone but themselves. A number of Labour MPs and ex MPs are saying Corbyn was more of an issue on the doorsteps than Brexit. Easy to blame the media for picking on poor Jeremy but Johnson hardly got an easy ride did he? |
Yawn!!! |  |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
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| Good Luck UK on 20:45 - Dec 14 with 1644 views | Sharpy36 |
"tried to bridge the gap between Remainers and Leavers"
By offering remain or remain |  |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| Good Luck UK on 20:59 - Dec 14 with 1596 views | hubble |
This is spot on. The Labour party is dead, not just its current incarnation, but as an entity that is meant to represent something ideologically cohesive. I predict it will split, splintering into different factions. It would be good to see more independence in politics anyway, but in the meantime, it's good to have (at least the semblance of) some stability in this country. |  |
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| Good Luck UK on 21:01 - Dec 14 with 1594 views | pastieR |
| Good Luck UK on 19:59 - Dec 14 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Wanting a proportional system is all well and good but then we had that in the referendum and the LD's and SNP did not accept the result. [Post edited 14 Dec 2019 20:03]
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I was never a fan of either revoke, or a 2nd referendum straight away. But when the tories made it clear they weren't willing to work to create a consensus and we were stuck in limbo, I thought it was a good way out.
Anyway brexit is coming, so we'll soon find whether it's a success or not.
I'll go back to never been represented in parliament. But I will never stop trying to argue for what i believe in. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 21:06 - Dec 14 with 1587 views | BlackCrowe |
Bazza, he should've won in this climeate of carnage but he lost because he was way too far left for everyone including the 'working class'. Not helped that some of his front bench were either utterly hopeless/insane or completely disaligned with the program.
i think he genuinely believes everything his ideaology, so he's not a phoney, it's just that the majority doesn't agree with him.
But ultimately Momentum is the big big problem and possibly will continue to be. As long as they control the membership, nothing will change. labour needs a moderate to stand a chance and i fear momentum will ensure another uber left will get it such as Mcdonnell's protege Long-bailey.
All too depressing, whatever your politics (and especially with this govt) a credible opposition is essential. |  |
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| Good Luck UK on 21:06 - Dec 14 with 1587 views | BrianMcCarthy |
What are your views on how this affects Ireland, border(s) and violence?
Would really like to know what the feeling is now. |  |
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| Good Luck UK on 21:45 - Dec 14 with 1834 views | Sharpy36 |
| Good Luck UK on 21:06 - Dec 14 by BrianMcCarthy |
What are your views on how this affects Ireland, border(s) and violence?
Would really like to know what the feeling is now. |
I believe that the border issue is a complete red herring and therefore will not affect those counties that run along the border. In saying that there will have to be some form of customs check, which imo will involve a trusted trader and electronic tracking system. Systems are already in place. | |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| Good Luck UK on 22:01 - Dec 14 with 1797 views | Harbour |
9 hours today in A&E at Northwick Park Hospital with my wife not well. Staff fantastic but clearly understaffed. It’s 10 Years of the Tories to fix it and they have not. no excuse now Johnson the promises you made at the election need fulfilling. No more lies fudging and false promises. Believe it when I see it. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 22:02 - Dec 14 with 1796 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Good Luck UK on 21:06 - Dec 14 by BlackCrowe |
Bazza, he should've won in this climeate of carnage but he lost because he was way too far left for everyone including the 'working class'. Not helped that some of his front bench were either utterly hopeless/insane or completely disaligned with the program.
i think he genuinely believes everything his ideaology, so he's not a phoney, it's just that the majority doesn't agree with him.
But ultimately Momentum is the big big problem and possibly will continue to be. As long as they control the membership, nothing will change. labour needs a moderate to stand a chance and i fear momentum will ensure another uber left will get it such as Mcdonnell's protege Long-bailey.
All too depressing, whatever your politics (and especially with this govt) a credible opposition is essential. |
Left and Right is subjective. Everything he advocated is already happening and is a mainstream view in countries from Norway to Korea. If you showed our manifesto to people in Norway that would ask you which centrist wrote it.
Maybe it was too much too soon. Asking people to consciously separate from 40 years of Neo Liberal policies was a big ask. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 22:04 - Dec 14 with 1786 views | stevec |
| Good Luck UK on 19:04 - Dec 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Labour lost because of
A) it’s Brexit stance
B) The false perception of Corbyn.
C) The false perception that it’s Manifesto was unaffordable.
D) A disunified PLP
The manifesto (costs aside) was almost universally popular amongst everyone until we told them it was Labour and Corbyn’s policy.
This isn’t the opinion of a keyboard commentator, this is the opinion of someone who has been knocking on doors for the the last four years from Darlington to Falmouth.
Our failure, and I say I as an employee of the Labour Party who has just lost his job, was a weakness in dealing with false narratives and instead acting the martyr which was only really appreciated by the Labour bubble. By those false narratives I mean:
Labour skinted the country in 2008, Labour's manifesto was unaffordable, Corbyn is a IRA / Hamas / Iranian sympathiser, Corbyn and Labour are antisemitic.
For those Labour supporters who are blaming Corbyn, consider this; Blair (Centre Right), Brown (Centrist), Miliband (Soft Left), all got fewer votes than Corbyn and were all equally vilified in their time, except Blair who only copped it near the end when the Tabloids dropped their support of him. Whoever the next leader is, they will be subject to the same vilification because it is the system that is rigged. Labour under Corbyn tried to work outside the system by developing a Community and Grassroots based organising structure but sadly these take a decade to bed in, while we tried to do it in 3 years and under the phenomenon of Brexit. I truly believe that if the Tories didn’t have ‘Get Brexit Done’ to fall back on it would have been a Labour majority, with Corbyn or otherwise.
Anyway, best of luck to everyone. I am a big believer that as a country we get the government we deserve ultimately. [Post edited 14 Dec 2019 19:29]
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Mind boggling.
It’s like losing 5-0 at home and your manager saying we were the better team. |  | | |
| Good Luck UK on 22:07 - Dec 14 with 1779 views | Ned_Kennedys |
| Good Luck UK on 22:02 - Dec 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Left and Right is subjective. Everything he advocated is already happening and is a mainstream view in countries from Norway to Korea. If you showed our manifesto to people in Norway that would ask you which centrist wrote it.
Maybe it was too much too soon. Asking people to consciously separate from 40 years of Neo Liberal policies was a big ask. |
And its that kind of intellectually superior attitude to the electorate that gave your lot the result they deserved on Thursday. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 22:09 - Dec 14 with 1768 views | kensalriser |
| Good Luck UK on 21:06 - Dec 14 by BrianMcCarthy |
What are your views on how this affects Ireland, border(s) and violence?
Would really like to know what the feeling is now. |
Almost no-one in England gives a fck about Ireland, North or South.
We even had a minister for NI who didn't realise people there voted along sectarian lines. |  |
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