| Latimer Road 02:31 - Jun 14 with 102387 views | stowmarketrange |
A big fire in a tower block in Latimer Road just been reported on 5live.Eyewitness says there are people trapped on the upper floors.
I hope everyone gets out safely. |  | | |  |
| Latimer Road on 11:51 - Jun 16 with 3394 views | hubble |
| Latimer Road on 10:29 - Jun 16 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
He is off again
Sadly I think we all know that there won't be many if any policy changes in how the lower class and poor will be treated, they are not suddenly going to start building social housing in Westminster or many parts of London, they will always use the excuse of cost.
Again look at Haygate.
To be honest how can you reverse the housing policies of both Tory and Labour (Blair did nothing) over the last 40 years, it would be too little to late. [Post edited 16 Jun 2017 10:46]
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What do you mean, 'he is off again'?
I genuinely think this could be a turning point. I sincerely hope it is. It comes on the back of the turning tide in public opinion that we saw in the general election, a tide that yet again the pundits failed to predict. (Not saying that I predicted it btw). Yes, I am all too aware of Heygate (I have friends who lived there) and the 'social cleansing' of our city that has taken place under the Tories (and old/New Labour). How can you reverse the housing policies? Public opinion. When the people en masse are sufficiently and righteously angry and engaged, even the politicians have to act. |  |
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| Latimer Road on 11:55 - Jun 16 with 3380 views | EastR |
| Latimer Road on 11:26 - Jun 16 by Northernr |
It is not unfair or unreasonable to force councils to provide people with properly insulated and heated homes. If they choose to accomplish that by wrapping the building in flammable plastic because it's the cheapest option then they deserve to go to prison when this happens. |
Just by way of background (and I hope people will be brought to task as responsibilities and accountabilities are made clear as the necessary enquiries and inquests progress).
This building was constructed and is owned by RBK&C. It is managed on their behalf by The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation Limited. A private limited company.
From their website:
The Company
The Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation Limited is a company limited by guarantee. This means that it does not have shareholders. When you become a member of the company, you undertake to contribute £1 to the assets of KCTMO if it is wound up and owes money. You do not have to pay anything when you join the company and your liability as a member can never be more than £1.
The objects of KCTMO include managing the council housing stock of The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and providing management services to other organisations. In addition, KCTMO has wide ranging powers to promote resident participation, both within the Borough and more generally, and to enter into contracts for the benefit of the organisation.
Management of the TMO
Ultimate responsibility for management rests with the KCTMO Board which consists of up to 15 members. There are eight elected resident board members, four members appointed by The Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea, and up to three additional 'independent' members. A Resident Board Member is any tenant or leaseholder who subject to the Constitution has been elected as such.
In their annual report for 2016 they highlighted the following:
“During the year £6.5m of the £10m total investment completed the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower in North Kensington, a block of 120 homes. The large scale works included the installation of insulated exterior cladding, new double glazes windows and a new communal heating system. All of this will greatly enhance the energy efficiency of the building.”
So this is the organisation that would have managed the approval/ tender/selection of contractors for the works that were carried out.
The current Board and Management team are detailed on their website.
http://www.kctmo.org.uk/main/8/about-us |  |
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| Latimer Road on 12:01 - Jun 16 with 3345 views | stevec |
| Latimer Road on 11:55 - Jun 16 by EastR |
Just by way of background (and I hope people will be brought to task as responsibilities and accountabilities are made clear as the necessary enquiries and inquests progress).
This building was constructed and is owned by RBK&C. It is managed on their behalf by The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation Limited. A private limited company.
From their website:
The Company
The Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation Limited is a company limited by guarantee. This means that it does not have shareholders. When you become a member of the company, you undertake to contribute £1 to the assets of KCTMO if it is wound up and owes money. You do not have to pay anything when you join the company and your liability as a member can never be more than £1.
The objects of KCTMO include managing the council housing stock of The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and providing management services to other organisations. In addition, KCTMO has wide ranging powers to promote resident participation, both within the Borough and more generally, and to enter into contracts for the benefit of the organisation.
Management of the TMO
Ultimate responsibility for management rests with the KCTMO Board which consists of up to 15 members. There are eight elected resident board members, four members appointed by The Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea, and up to three additional 'independent' members. A Resident Board Member is any tenant or leaseholder who subject to the Constitution has been elected as such.
In their annual report for 2016 they highlighted the following:
“During the year £6.5m of the £10m total investment completed the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower in North Kensington, a block of 120 homes. The large scale works included the installation of insulated exterior cladding, new double glazes windows and a new communal heating system. All of this will greatly enhance the energy efficiency of the building.”
So this is the organisation that would have managed the approval/ tender/selection of contractors for the works that were carried out.
The current Board and Management team are detailed on their website.
http://www.kctmo.org.uk/main/8/about-us |
Over to you, Danny |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 12:06 - Jun 16 with 3330 views | DannytheR |
| Latimer Road on 11:48 - Jun 16 by stevec |
I get what you are saying and agree with most of it, but are you sure the cladding isn't an environmental directive? |
The reasons for using the kind of cladding they used were appearance and cost. This is from an internal planning document ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-cladding-fire-caus
"And that cladding — a low-cost way of improving the front of the building — was chosen in part so that the tower would look better when seen from the conservation areas and luxury flats that surround north Kensington, according to planning documents, as well as to insulate it.
“Due to its height the tower is visible from the adjacent Avondale Conservation Area to the south and the Ladbroke Conservation Area to the east,” a planning document for the regeneration work reads. “The changes to the existing tower will improve its appearance especially when viewed from the surrounding area.”
The document, published in 2014 and providing a full report on the works, makes repeated reference to the “appearance of the area”. That is the justification for the material used on the outside of the building, which has since been claimed to have contributed to the horror.
A number of conditions were attached to the 2014 decision to approve the plan — many of which related specifically to the material used in the cladding, so that the council could ensure the "living conditions of those living near the development" were "suitably protected".
As far as I can tell - and I don't work in the trade — cladding is routinely used as a way to improve insulation in old buildings, but clearly there are many of different types of it, most of which don't make the building itself a death trap.
If you blame what's happened on the very idea of insulating old buildings, it's like saying fire proofing itself is a bad idea just because they used to use asbestos to do it. |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 12:06 - Jun 16 with 3326 views | DannytheR |
| Latimer Road on 12:01 - Jun 16 by stevec |
Over to you, Danny |
You've lost me Steve? | | | |
| Latimer Road on 12:11 - Jun 16 with 3299 views | johncharles |
| Latimer Road on 11:48 - Jun 16 by stevec |
I get what you are saying and agree with most of it, but are you sure the cladding isn't an environmental directive? |
There are reports that the cladding was cosmetic. Hell of a thing if these people have died so horrifically so the richer residents would have a nicer view. |  |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Latimer Road on 12:16 - Jun 16 with 3275 views | TacticalR |
| Latimer Road on 12:06 - Jun 16 by DannytheR |
The reasons for using the kind of cladding they used were appearance and cost. This is from an internal planning document ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-cladding-fire-caus
"And that cladding — a low-cost way of improving the front of the building — was chosen in part so that the tower would look better when seen from the conservation areas and luxury flats that surround north Kensington, according to planning documents, as well as to insulate it.
“Due to its height the tower is visible from the adjacent Avondale Conservation Area to the south and the Ladbroke Conservation Area to the east,” a planning document for the regeneration work reads. “The changes to the existing tower will improve its appearance especially when viewed from the surrounding area.”
The document, published in 2014 and providing a full report on the works, makes repeated reference to the “appearance of the area”. That is the justification for the material used on the outside of the building, which has since been claimed to have contributed to the horror.
A number of conditions were attached to the 2014 decision to approve the plan — many of which related specifically to the material used in the cladding, so that the council could ensure the "living conditions of those living near the development" were "suitably protected".
As far as I can tell - and I don't work in the trade — cladding is routinely used as a way to improve insulation in old buildings, but clearly there are many of different types of it, most of which don't make the building itself a death trap.
If you blame what's happened on the very idea of insulating old buildings, it's like saying fire proofing itself is a bad idea just because they used to use asbestos to do it. |
A Potemkin village
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_village |  |
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| Latimer Road on 12:18 - Jun 16 with 3256 views | JamesB1979 |
| Latimer Road on 12:11 - Jun 16 by johncharles |
There are reports that the cladding was cosmetic. Hell of a thing if these people have died so horrifically so the richer residents would have a nicer view. |
Yes I've seen this but isn't the cladding within the walls? I also don't understand why on earth cladding that is this flammable would be out there!?? | | | |
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| Latimer Road on 12:19 - Jun 16 with 3251 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Latimer Road on 11:51 - Jun 16 by hubble |
What do you mean, 'he is off again'?
I genuinely think this could be a turning point. I sincerely hope it is. It comes on the back of the turning tide in public opinion that we saw in the general election, a tide that yet again the pundits failed to predict. (Not saying that I predicted it btw). Yes, I am all too aware of Heygate (I have friends who lived there) and the 'social cleansing' of our city that has taken place under the Tories (and old/New Labour). How can you reverse the housing policies? Public opinion. When the people en masse are sufficiently and righteously angry and engaged, even the politicians have to act. |
Myself |  |
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| Latimer Road on 12:23 - Jun 16 with 3222 views | JamesB1979 |
| Latimer Road on 12:18 - Jun 16 by JamesB1979 |
Yes I've seen this but isn't the cladding within the walls? I also don't understand why on earth cladding that is this flammable would be out there!?? |
I've just found the answer to my question. | | | |
| Latimer Road on 12:24 - Jun 16 with 3213 views | Lblock |
Sorry to be a bore on this and I'd again say I'm not an expert.
Once a level of combustion is reached almost all cladding materials will burn - the standards spoken about are based on laboratory tests and that is key. Likewise uPVC windows.
I still think the seat of the fire will tell a story here - once that fire started the orignal source was ferocious and the change reaction followed.
It is indisputable that other cladding would have meant a slower spread of flame - but in laboratory tests.
Here one needs to appreciate the cavity behind is a wind tunnel adding an updraft of oxygen and feeding the fire. It's a balmy June evening, peoples windows above are open, they have curtains, they have blinds, they have gas supplies and then, bingo, you've got a perfect storm with flames jumping property to property within this cavity.
The first fault therefore lies with the design and potentially the installer / checkers IF fire breaks in the cavity weren't fitted / properly - without sight of drawings, specs, as fited etc
It has always amazed me over the last 10 years or so just how much importance has been attached to so called "green buildings". I appreciate the environment needs protecting etc but IMHO a lot of it is simply allowing materials suppliers to hike costs and generating refurbishment work etc. The priorities for me should Life Safety and Accessability for the impaired - then start looking at carbon neutral and green stuff.
For now this is catagorised as a tragic accident. An what is the definition of an accident? "It is a preventable incident".
Say no more...... |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Latimer Road on 12:25 - Jun 16 with 3204 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
Just been speaking to a friend that was in the hotel in dubai that went up the same, it was the cladding and he was saying it went up the building just as fast and was terrifying but stayed mostly to the outside , that building had good escape roots. | |
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| Latimer Road on 12:36 - Jun 16 with 3155 views | TheChef |
| Latimer Road on 12:11 - Jun 16 by johncharles |
There are reports that the cladding was cosmetic. Hell of a thing if these people have died so horrifically so the richer residents would have a nicer view. |
The whole thing is dodgy as hell, and you can be sure the people at the top who are responsible will get off scot-free. Some suckers lower down the food chain will take the hit instead.
I think the cladding is a red herring.
How the hell does a mostly concrete building go up in flames like that?
Last time I checked concrete was not flammable.
Let alone the lack of sprinklers and fire alarms.
- Fire brigade going around the Saturday before telling people to 'stay put' in the event of a fire - is that normal?
- Renovations that were in the millions but seemed very superficial - no emphasis on safety
- The company that did it then went bust quickly after completion
- Gas pipes fitted and new boilers in each flat. Those gas pipes were not boxed in or protected (residents complained about this) |  |
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| Latimer Road on 12:40 - Jun 16 with 3131 views | traininvain |
| Latimer Road on 11:20 - Jun 16 by stevec |
Totally agree with that, they deserve all that's coming to them.
But to put the onus onto Council officials to distinguish between what is and isn't least fire resistant, assuming it was ever properly explained to them, is asking them to go way beyond their technical knowledge. Let's face it, if you or I bought something that cost £2 less the only real question we'd ask is 'is it British Standard?' If yes, we'd buy it. These Councillors have no more knowledge on this subject than any of us.
Way above their heads are people telling them 'here's your budget and don't forget, all building work must adhere to Climate Change efficiency' That's how it works, people with no direct responsibility to local people putting pressure on local councils. I'd guarantee if a Councillor said 'fúck you're climate initiative's, I'm not putting cladding up, i'm installing sprinklers instead' he or she would have pretty quickly been shown the door.
This stuff, Diesel fuels, it all goes way above the likes of us, it is the fault of gullible Governments attempting to run before they can walk, just to appease the climate lobby.
Simple truth, no cladding, no needless deaths. |
Prime example of someone trying to use a tragic event to push an agenda. Seen it so many times this week. People are still burning in that building and t0ssers are trying to score points. Fcuking shameful. |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 12:47 - Jun 16 with 3091 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Latimer Road on 12:40 - Jun 16 by traininvain |
Prime example of someone trying to use a tragic event to push an agenda. Seen it so many times this week. People are still burning in that building and t0ssers are trying to score points. Fcuking shameful. |
Maybe just reflecting the majority of people everywhere not just confined to this board, that do think there are political roots to this.
Police say there is no evidence that the fire was deliberate. [Post edited 16 Jun 2017 12:49]
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| Latimer Road on 12:52 - Jun 16 with 3069 views | ozexile |
| Latimer Road on 12:36 - Jun 16 by TheChef |
The whole thing is dodgy as hell, and you can be sure the people at the top who are responsible will get off scot-free. Some suckers lower down the food chain will take the hit instead.
I think the cladding is a red herring.
How the hell does a mostly concrete building go up in flames like that?
Last time I checked concrete was not flammable.
Let alone the lack of sprinklers and fire alarms.
- Fire brigade going around the Saturday before telling people to 'stay put' in the event of a fire - is that normal?
- Renovations that were in the millions but seemed very superficial - no emphasis on safety
- The company that did it then went bust quickly after completion
- Gas pipes fitted and new boilers in each flat. Those gas pipes were not boxed in or protected (residents complained about this) |
Gas pipes don't have to be boxed in or protected. Only if going through concrete. | | | |
| Latimer Road on 13:01 - Jun 16 with 3028 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Latimer Road on 12:52 - Jun 16 by ozexile |
Gas pipes don't have to be boxed in or protected. Only if going through concrete. |
Gas pipes use to be steel now copper with copper fittings and solder that can melt ... just saying. | |
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| Latimer Road on 13:06 - Jun 16 with 3003 views | MrSheen |
| Latimer Road on 12:36 - Jun 16 by TheChef |
The whole thing is dodgy as hell, and you can be sure the people at the top who are responsible will get off scot-free. Some suckers lower down the food chain will take the hit instead.
I think the cladding is a red herring.
How the hell does a mostly concrete building go up in flames like that?
Last time I checked concrete was not flammable.
Let alone the lack of sprinklers and fire alarms.
- Fire brigade going around the Saturday before telling people to 'stay put' in the event of a fire - is that normal?
- Renovations that were in the millions but seemed very superficial - no emphasis on safety
- The company that did it then went bust quickly after completion
- Gas pipes fitted and new boilers in each flat. Those gas pipes were not boxed in or protected (residents complained about this) |
On staying put in a fire, my brother in law lived on the 21st floor of a block in Battersea. A tenant about four floors below wanted to be rehoused, so he set his flat on fire - for which he later got 6 years. My BiL stayed put while the fire brigade put it out. As it was on the other side of the building he saw smoke not flames, but he got the shock of his life when he got to the ground and saw what had happened. I guess the advice is given in particular when there is one staircase as the firemen will be charging up it. It's a bit like the Titanic, safe if one compartment is compromised but no one expected them all to be exposed at the same time.
I'm in Ireland so finding it hard to follow, but is it true that the new Kensington MP was on the board of the management company? |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 13:12 - Jun 16 with 2967 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
K&C saying maybe 2 years before they can rehouse everyone | |
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| Latimer Road on 13:56 - Jun 16 with 2871 views | QPR_Jim |
| Latimer Road on 11:20 - Jun 16 by stevec |
Totally agree with that, they deserve all that's coming to them.
But to put the onus onto Council officials to distinguish between what is and isn't least fire resistant, assuming it was ever properly explained to them, is asking them to go way beyond their technical knowledge. Let's face it, if you or I bought something that cost £2 less the only real question we'd ask is 'is it British Standard?' If yes, we'd buy it. These Councillors have no more knowledge on this subject than any of us.
Way above their heads are people telling them 'here's your budget and don't forget, all building work must adhere to Climate Change efficiency' That's how it works, people with no direct responsibility to local people putting pressure on local councils. I'd guarantee if a Councillor said 'fúck you're climate initiative's, I'm not putting cladding up, i'm installing sprinklers instead' he or she would have pretty quickly been shown the door.
This stuff, Diesel fuels, it all goes way above the likes of us, it is the fault of gullible Governments attempting to run before they can walk, just to appease the climate lobby.
Simple truth, no cladding, no needless deaths. |
Stevec, the cladding is a proprietary system, they don't need any great understanding of fire resistance or combustion, the manufacture do a standard and a fire resistant and they put the letters FR at the end to highlight the difference. It's fairly standard across the industry with fire rated products to have a suffix such as this to establish the difference between a standard or a fire rated product.
I've not said anything on this thread so far as I don't think there is much to say at this point, everybody seems to be varying degrees of angry or upset. I think we need to have a thorough investigation into what happened (both technically during the fire and prior to the fire), we need to learn from this and most importantly stop it happening again as there are potentially thousands of other lives at risk. |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 14:22 - Jun 16 with 2811 views | colinallcars |
They give us a Potemkin village - we give them the battleship Potemkin. |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 14:22 - Jun 16 with 2811 views | hubble |
| Latimer Road on 13:06 - Jun 16 by MrSheen |
On staying put in a fire, my brother in law lived on the 21st floor of a block in Battersea. A tenant about four floors below wanted to be rehoused, so he set his flat on fire - for which he later got 6 years. My BiL stayed put while the fire brigade put it out. As it was on the other side of the building he saw smoke not flames, but he got the shock of his life when he got to the ground and saw what had happened. I guess the advice is given in particular when there is one staircase as the firemen will be charging up it. It's a bit like the Titanic, safe if one compartment is compromised but no one expected them all to be exposed at the same time.
I'm in Ireland so finding it hard to follow, but is it true that the new Kensington MP was on the board of the management company? |
Former member in her capacity as Labour councillor. The article Chef posted is salient: https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2015/07/12/rbkc-gerrymandering-in-nort | |
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| Latimer Road on 14:44 - Jun 16 with 2746 views | EastR |
| Latimer Road on 13:06 - Jun 16 by MrSheen |
On staying put in a fire, my brother in law lived on the 21st floor of a block in Battersea. A tenant about four floors below wanted to be rehoused, so he set his flat on fire - for which he later got 6 years. My BiL stayed put while the fire brigade put it out. As it was on the other side of the building he saw smoke not flames, but he got the shock of his life when he got to the ground and saw what had happened. I guess the advice is given in particular when there is one staircase as the firemen will be charging up it. It's a bit like the Titanic, safe if one compartment is compromised but no one expected them all to be exposed at the same time.
I'm in Ireland so finding it hard to follow, but is it true that the new Kensington MP was on the board of the management company? |
According to Companies House records she was on the Board until Oct 2012. | |
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| Latimer Road on 15:05 - Jun 16 with 2685 views | TheChef |
| Latimer Road on 14:44 - Jun 16 by EastR |
According to Companies House records she was on the Board until Oct 2012. |
"The organisation responsible for maintenance and safety at the social housing block is the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO). But the organisation’s name is deceptive — far from being a tenant-run company, the ‘TMO’ is actually a private company — an aloof ivory tower that sits far above the actual residents, and who ‘manage’ 10,000 properties… with handsome salaries and fees for selected executives and contractors. Although Grenfell Tower is owned by the Borough Council of Kensington and Chelsea, the management of the tower block is subcontracted out to the TMO.
Critics of the public-private partnership, or PPP, management hand-off claim that the quasi-privatised TMO arrangement is rife with corruption, including sweetheart deals to contractors. It also enables connected board members to fleece poor residents while taking home enormous sums of money for doing little if anything for it. Last year, the KCTMO was paid £11million ($14 million) in taxpayer money to manage Grenfell Tower. According to the Mail Online, four senior members of TMO took £650,000 between them last year."
http://21stcenturywire.com/2017/06/15/grenfell-tower-a-tory-wicker-man/ | |
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