| EDB Signs new contract 16:04 - Jun 10 with 11450 views | Andybrat |
So that is genuine good news, wasn’t sure that one was on the cards. |  | | |  |
| EDB Signs new contract on 07:35 - Jun 11 with 4102 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| EDB Signs new contract on 22:55 - Jun 10 by stainrods_elbow |
Interesting choice of phrase, Brian. Who do you/we think is/isn't a 'Cifuentes-type' player? |
Well, I'm not sure...
I was chatting to Clive about this back in April or May, and it's hard to tell where Cifuentes will land with his style of football.
From what we know of him pre-Rangers he was a Cryuffian disciple - ball-playing goalie, high defensive line, pass the ball through midfield on the ground, three central midfielders in this formation.
-----6-----
--8-------
-------10--
...and a high press by a three man forward/winger line.
Clive is right that he altered those core beliefs as needs must. The question now is whether, with a full off-season of recruitment behind him, he will revert to his core beliefs or remain with the hybrid style that was effective for him last season.
Ball-playing goalie: Clearly, Begovic does not fit the Cryuffian style.
High Defensive line: Clearly, this does not suit Cook, but he was POTY. Huge call.
High Press: To be decided, but not sure we have the players for it at present.
Which leaves, passing the ball through midfield:
When he came in first we tried to do this but Dozzell, Field and Colback either lacked the belief, the instructions or the desire to show for the ball, turn and quickly lay it off to the next man up. We had to abandon it.
Then with the addition of Hayden we agian had a 6 who wanted the ball from his goalie and centre-backs, so we could start playing through the middle again.
Then we altered again, mixing short passes with Begovic's long-balls to Dunne.
But we did end up playing a Cryuffian 433, and we did end up playing with a Cryuffian staggered 6-8-10 as above.
I thought that every time Dixon-Bonnar played he looked like a player that suited that. He wanted the ball, he showed for it, he took it on the half-turn or he turned quickly, and he layed it off to the next man up.
So, regardless of how Cifuentes resolves the goalkeeping, the defensive line and the high press, I think we will most likely continue to play 433 with a 6-8-10, and I think Dixon-Bonnar will get chances to nail one of those spots.
As for the other players who may or may not suit the Cryuffian 433, there's actually very few who fit the theoretical model, as I say.
Goalkeepers: Walsh (?)
Defenders: Paal, Cannon, Clarke-Salter
Midfielders: Andersen, Dixon-Bonnar.
Strikers: None
Maybe I've missed one or two, but either way most of our better players are not on that list, so it looks like a hybrid style for the season ahead unless we have a(nother) total clearout. |  |
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| EDB Signs new contract on 10:30 - Jun 11 with 3794 views | 1JD |
| EDB Signs new contract on 07:35 - Jun 11 by BrianMcCarthy |
Well, I'm not sure...
I was chatting to Clive about this back in April or May, and it's hard to tell where Cifuentes will land with his style of football.
From what we know of him pre-Rangers he was a Cryuffian disciple - ball-playing goalie, high defensive line, pass the ball through midfield on the ground, three central midfielders in this formation.
-----6-----
--8-------
-------10--
...and a high press by a three man forward/winger line.
Clive is right that he altered those core beliefs as needs must. The question now is whether, with a full off-season of recruitment behind him, he will revert to his core beliefs or remain with the hybrid style that was effective for him last season.
Ball-playing goalie: Clearly, Begovic does not fit the Cryuffian style.
High Defensive line: Clearly, this does not suit Cook, but he was POTY. Huge call.
High Press: To be decided, but not sure we have the players for it at present.
Which leaves, passing the ball through midfield:
When he came in first we tried to do this but Dozzell, Field and Colback either lacked the belief, the instructions or the desire to show for the ball, turn and quickly lay it off to the next man up. We had to abandon it.
Then with the addition of Hayden we agian had a 6 who wanted the ball from his goalie and centre-backs, so we could start playing through the middle again.
Then we altered again, mixing short passes with Begovic's long-balls to Dunne.
But we did end up playing a Cryuffian 433, and we did end up playing with a Cryuffian staggered 6-8-10 as above.
I thought that every time Dixon-Bonnar played he looked like a player that suited that. He wanted the ball, he showed for it, he took it on the half-turn or he turned quickly, and he layed it off to the next man up.
So, regardless of how Cifuentes resolves the goalkeeping, the defensive line and the high press, I think we will most likely continue to play 433 with a 6-8-10, and I think Dixon-Bonnar will get chances to nail one of those spots.
As for the other players who may or may not suit the Cryuffian 433, there's actually very few who fit the theoretical model, as I say.
Goalkeepers: Walsh (?)
Defenders: Paal, Cannon, Clarke-Salter
Midfielders: Andersen, Dixon-Bonnar.
Strikers: None
Maybe I've missed one or two, but either way most of our better players are not on that list, so it looks like a hybrid style for the season ahead unless we have a(nother) total clearout. |
Great observations and analysis, Brian | | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 12:13 - Jun 11 with 3630 views | QPROslo |
| EDB Signs new contract on 07:35 - Jun 11 by BrianMcCarthy |
Well, I'm not sure...
I was chatting to Clive about this back in April or May, and it's hard to tell where Cifuentes will land with his style of football.
From what we know of him pre-Rangers he was a Cryuffian disciple - ball-playing goalie, high defensive line, pass the ball through midfield on the ground, three central midfielders in this formation.
-----6-----
--8-------
-------10--
...and a high press by a three man forward/winger line.
Clive is right that he altered those core beliefs as needs must. The question now is whether, with a full off-season of recruitment behind him, he will revert to his core beliefs or remain with the hybrid style that was effective for him last season.
Ball-playing goalie: Clearly, Begovic does not fit the Cryuffian style.
High Defensive line: Clearly, this does not suit Cook, but he was POTY. Huge call.
High Press: To be decided, but not sure we have the players for it at present.
Which leaves, passing the ball through midfield:
When he came in first we tried to do this but Dozzell, Field and Colback either lacked the belief, the instructions or the desire to show for the ball, turn and quickly lay it off to the next man up. We had to abandon it.
Then with the addition of Hayden we agian had a 6 who wanted the ball from his goalie and centre-backs, so we could start playing through the middle again.
Then we altered again, mixing short passes with Begovic's long-balls to Dunne.
But we did end up playing a Cryuffian 433, and we did end up playing with a Cryuffian staggered 6-8-10 as above.
I thought that every time Dixon-Bonnar played he looked like a player that suited that. He wanted the ball, he showed for it, he took it on the half-turn or he turned quickly, and he layed it off to the next man up.
So, regardless of how Cifuentes resolves the goalkeeping, the defensive line and the high press, I think we will most likely continue to play 433 with a 6-8-10, and I think Dixon-Bonnar will get chances to nail one of those spots.
As for the other players who may or may not suit the Cryuffian 433, there's actually very few who fit the theoretical model, as I say.
Goalkeepers: Walsh (?)
Defenders: Paal, Cannon, Clarke-Salter
Midfielders: Andersen, Dixon-Bonnar.
Strikers: None
Maybe I've missed one or two, but either way most of our better players are not on that list, so it looks like a hybrid style for the season ahead unless we have a(nother) total clearout. |
I think you can add Colback to the midfield players we have now who can play the ball on the ground through the middle of the park in the central 3 of a 4 3 3. In fact he's the best we have there now, perhaps the only one as I'm not convinced EDB is up to it yet at least. I'd include Andersen with Chair, Willock, and Smith as mainly used in a more attacking 3. I reckon Marti abandoned playing through the middle in January after our poor results in and around Christmas/NewYear, loaned out Dozzell, brought in Hayden and a bit later used Dunne at RB essentially abandoning playing out on the ground through a midfield 3 as you say. We'd need to bring in a good ball playing, quick and accurate central midfielder to play alongside the likes of Colback and Field in a central 3 for us to go 4 3 3 again. I see Hayden if we did bring him back as more of a Field type and more suited to the more pragmatic style we used with Dunne at RB. | | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 12:36 - Jun 11 with 3554 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| EDB Signs new contract on 12:13 - Jun 11 by QPROslo |
I think you can add Colback to the midfield players we have now who can play the ball on the ground through the middle of the park in the central 3 of a 4 3 3. In fact he's the best we have there now, perhaps the only one as I'm not convinced EDB is up to it yet at least. I'd include Andersen with Chair, Willock, and Smith as mainly used in a more attacking 3. I reckon Marti abandoned playing through the middle in January after our poor results in and around Christmas/NewYear, loaned out Dozzell, brought in Hayden and a bit later used Dunne at RB essentially abandoning playing out on the ground through a midfield 3 as you say. We'd need to bring in a good ball playing, quick and accurate central midfielder to play alongside the likes of Colback and Field in a central 3 for us to go 4 3 3 again. I see Hayden if we did bring him back as more of a Field type and more suited to the more pragmatic style we used with Dunne at RB. |
I don't rate Colback as a ball-playing centre-mid at all, Oslo. Far, far too often he hides behind an oppo player so that our man in possession can't pass to him. He simply doesn't want the ball in the areas that it needs to be collected in i.e. from the goalie and centre-backs. He's happy doing it further up the field and had some good spells there, but he's not brave enough on the ball where it matters.
Hayden, on the other hand, is very comfortable recieving it there and, imo, changed our game for the better by always showing for it in the tight areas. I thought he was superb for us and was also far better technically than Colback or Field. | |
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| EDB Signs new contract on 13:17 - Jun 11 with 3402 views | aston_hoop |
| EDB Signs new contract on 18:00 - Jun 10 by Antti_Heinola |
Liked him from the time Ainsworth brought him on as a sub and he looked comfortable on the ball. But equally, it feels like the ingredients are there, but not quite the cake. Interesting to see how it goes.
I'm a bit more concerned that Marti was not quoted (or even mentioned). He's just on holiday, isn't he?
Isn't he? [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 18:01]
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He's in Barcelona still, watched their B team win a playoff semi final against Ibiza on Sunday.
Pleased to see EDB get a new deal. Lost years of his career by not having loan time, he's 23 and still short of 20 senior games (probably, can't be bothered to check). But he's a completely different profile of player to what we have and I think when one goal goes in, many will follow |  |
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| EDB Signs new contract on 13:26 - Jun 11 with 3355 views | westberksr |
have liked the limited amount of him that I've seen. hopefully push on a little bit this year.
last season we were so up against that I think Marti stuck to the tried and tested to salvage the season without throwing EDB into the melting pot unless really necessary. |  | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 14:23 - Jun 11 with 3229 views | simmo |
I really like Hayden, but don't remember him being progressive or forward passing at any point. I don't believe he's the answer to a switch to a more expansive style - the opposite tbh.
I think EDB stood out early against the very pragmatic style and likes of Field, just by being brave - and I'm pleased he's signed on as there's absolutely a player there - but I do wonder why he dropped so low down the pecking order in that last third, he was even behind Hodge.
It's a conundrum ATM because all of the current CMs are important for different reasons, but none offer the solution as a progressive ball carrier or cute passer - EDB could, but he's got a way to go in pre season to convince |  |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| EDB Signs new contract on 14:39 - Jun 11 with 3158 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| EDB Signs new contract on 14:23 - Jun 11 by simmo |
I really like Hayden, but don't remember him being progressive or forward passing at any point. I don't believe he's the answer to a switch to a more expansive style - the opposite tbh.
I think EDB stood out early against the very pragmatic style and likes of Field, just by being brave - and I'm pleased he's signed on as there's absolutely a player there - but I do wonder why he dropped so low down the pecking order in that last third, he was even behind Hodge.
It's a conundrum ATM because all of the current CMs are important for different reasons, but none offer the solution as a progressive ball carrier or cute passer - EDB could, but he's got a way to go in pre season to convince |
I think that's all fair comment, Simmo, and I agree with it all.
A slight difference of opinion on Hayden, in that I think he's good at showing at 6, taking it off the goalie or centre-backs and getting it forward to 8, but I think you're right that he's not a great long or inventive passer, or a great dribbler. Ideally, you'd want your 6 to be good at those too, but there's not many of those kind of players will rock up in W12 any time soon. | |
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| EDB Signs new contract on 15:08 - Jun 11 with 3021 views | QPROslo |
| EDB Signs new contract on 12:36 - Jun 11 by BrianMcCarthy |
I don't rate Colback as a ball-playing centre-mid at all, Oslo. Far, far too often he hides behind an oppo player so that our man in possession can't pass to him. He simply doesn't want the ball in the areas that it needs to be collected in i.e. from the goalie and centre-backs. He's happy doing it further up the field and had some good spells there, but he's not brave enough on the ball where it matters.
Hayden, on the other hand, is very comfortable recieving it there and, imo, changed our game for the better by always showing for it in the tight areas. I thought he was superb for us and was also far better technically than Colback or Field. |
I never saw Colback hide, but he did often direct our midfield and was quite capable of the passing the ball out from defense. He'll need to stay fit and keep his aggression under control for another season. I'd love to see Hayden return but his passing out from the back wasn't so good and I think that was another reason we didn't play out from the back much after he came in. | | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 15:20 - Jun 11 with 2965 views | 1JD |
| EDB Signs new contract on 14:39 - Jun 11 by BrianMcCarthy |
I think that's all fair comment, Simmo, and I agree with it all.
A slight difference of opinion on Hayden, in that I think he's good at showing at 6, taking it off the goalie or centre-backs and getting it forward to 8, but I think you're right that he's not a great long or inventive passer, or a great dribbler. Ideally, you'd want your 6 to be good at those too, but there's not many of those kind of players will rock up in W12 any time soon. |
Alex Aoraha ticks a lot of boxes here.
He’s a deep lying number 6, always showing, always dictating play. Very comfortable on the ball and in tight spaces, plays forward, can carry the ball, and also has a great engine and defensive abilities. Dare I say it, similar attributes to a certain Adam Wharton.
But it remains to be seen how he recovers from his leg break. Big shame for the lad as Marti himself had earmarked him for first team opportunities just before his injury. | | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 15:36 - Jun 11 with 2911 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| EDB Signs new contract on 15:20 - Jun 11 by 1JD |
Alex Aoraha ticks a lot of boxes here.
He’s a deep lying number 6, always showing, always dictating play. Very comfortable on the ball and in tight spaces, plays forward, can carry the ball, and also has a great engine and defensive abilities. Dare I say it, similar attributes to a certain Adam Wharton.
But it remains to be seen how he recovers from his leg break. Big shame for the lad as Marti himself had earmarked him for first team opportunities just before his injury. |
Good to hear. Thanks JD. | |
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| EDB Signs new contract on 15:38 - Jun 11 with 2900 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| EDB Signs new contract on 15:08 - Jun 11 by QPROslo |
I never saw Colback hide, but he did often direct our midfield and was quite capable of the passing the ball out from defense. He'll need to stay fit and keep his aggression under control for another season. I'd love to see Hayden return but his passing out from the back wasn't so good and I think that was another reason we didn't play out from the back much after he came in. |
Have to disagree on Colback's hiding, Oslo. Not to worry, we all see things differently. | |
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| EDB Signs new contract on 15:50 - Jun 11 with 2868 views | Northernr |
I actually quite like Colback's aggression. I said for years we were too nice, needed a bit more of that. Big thick tactical fouls. Stop getting trampled and being so meek.
The amount of cards he gets for daft stuff, like kicking the ball away, however, needs to fcking stop - particularly as Cifuentes tends to sub you as soon as you're on a yellow. Noticeable that Sam Field went from 11 bookings in the first half of the year to none in the last 15. |  | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 16:04 - Jun 11 with 2819 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| EDB Signs new contract on 15:50 - Jun 11 by Northernr |
I actually quite like Colback's aggression. I said for years we were too nice, needed a bit more of that. Big thick tactical fouls. Stop getting trampled and being so meek.
The amount of cards he gets for daft stuff, like kicking the ball away, however, needs to fcking stop - particularly as Cifuentes tends to sub you as soon as you're on a yellow. Noticeable that Sam Field went from 11 bookings in the first half of the year to none in the last 15. |
Agree about Colback's likeable aggression, the 'taking one for the team' fouls and also the petulant yellows. The latter drive me crazy.
Interesting about Field. I knew his yellows had reduced, but that's crazy. I suppose part of it was that he was playing further up the park, but still - that reduction is impressive. | |
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| EDB Signs new contract on 16:34 - Jun 11 with 2764 views | Hoopstar |
Thought that with Field too - also the fact we actually had a midfield so he wasn't desperately hauling players back who were breaking through the spaces left by a certain friendly ghost.
Must be a lot easier to not get booked when you are surrounded by players you can trust and rely on, and not sure he has ever said an angry word to anyone in his life so nice is he let alone a ref! |  | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 19:35 - Jun 11 with 2533 views | LazyFan |
Colbacks issue )apart from silly yellows) is that hes too high up the pitch. Marti beat it out of him in the Millwall game when he saw enough after 20 mins and it worked. When he plays too high as a presser there are gaps left in behind him which teams can exploit.
Rotherham, stayed back (yeah, I know it was a poor Rotherham) and controlled the entire game Pirlo styl;e. He should be receiving the ball from Cook and playing it up field. Leave the pressing to EBD and Field for the trap, and then on breakaways, he can come in from the rear for those cut-back goals he was doing earlier in the season.
If they play that way, I think those three can work well together. Then we need one more AMC as a backup or to be better than EDB to improve the squad. With Aoraha and a possible option in Cannon DMC is covered.
This summer we need:
GK
AMC
High assist, super fast RW
and, of course, the mythical Goal Scorer.
That's only 4 players; in the past, I have advocated for 6 players.
This reduced squad is the progress going back to Sir Less and Hoos. Who made many mistakes but set us on this path and we took years to get here but we have. Now we have FFP headroom, possibly Eze monies coming in, we need to get those 4 in and some nice young talent which will be very expensive but worth it.
People like Jay Stansfield or Tom Cannon, which neither Prem club will play in the prem, and so on. |  |
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| EDB Signs new contract on 17:00 - Jan 13 with 1227 views | dmm |
That's the best thing for the lad. He might even return a better player that could push on at QPR, but more likely it puts him in the shop window for a move.
Might it leave us a little short? We've not got the biggest squad but I guess we can put Talla or Aoraha on the bench in EDB's place. |  | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 17:06 - Jan 13 with 1171 views | Stainrod |
I find the EDB situation a mystery. Am by nature highly sceptical of conspiracy theories but I can't help wondering if something has happened behind the scenes. To be given a new contract in the summer and seemingly set to have a breakthrough season but then so far down the pecking order that even if 5 or 6 other midfielders were shot, Marti would still be reluctant to play him. | | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 17:08 - Jan 13 with 1158 views | sparkey |
Looking at the reaction from the summer when he signed a new contract, it's sad to see how far it has gone wrong. Those league cup games killed him I think, he was given opportunities and just didn't grasp them whatsoever. Sad but he seems like a good egg. | | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 17:36 - Jan 13 with 972 views | PunteR |
| EDB Signs new contract on 17:06 - Jan 13 by Stainrod |
I find the EDB situation a mystery. Am by nature highly sceptical of conspiracy theories but I can't help wondering if something has happened behind the scenes. To be given a new contract in the summer and seemingly set to have a breakthrough season but then so far down the pecking order that even if 5 or 6 other midfielders were shot, Marti would still be reluctant to play him. |
Yeh, its a bit odd. I thought he was half decent. Ahead of Madsen in that midfield department anyway. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| EDB Signs new contract on 18:05 - Jan 13 with 821 views | nix |
I thought he looked positive last season and wasn't surprised with the new contract but alas he suffers from a recent scourge of midfielders that go missing. It's no good doing that neat control and pass when you're in space to then leave your mate to it when surrounded by three oppo players. Or not really do the closing down and tackling which you don't necessarily notice apart from when they play the other teams seems to have more space or even like they've got an extra player.
The thing about Morgan I noticed straight away was how involved he was right across the pitch. Really wanting to be involved. It's the very least you can offer as a young player.
He seems a nice lad though and technically sound so I hope it works out for him. |  | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 19:01 - Jan 13 with 591 views | Loft1979 |
Agreed. I would rather try to loan Madsen than EDB. |  | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 20:26 - Jan 13 with 371 views | Ned_Kennedys |
| EDB Signs new contract on 18:05 - Jan 13 by nix |
I thought he looked positive last season and wasn't surprised with the new contract but alas he suffers from a recent scourge of midfielders that go missing. It's no good doing that neat control and pass when you're in space to then leave your mate to it when surrounded by three oppo players. Or not really do the closing down and tackling which you don't necessarily notice apart from when they play the other teams seems to have more space or even like they've got an extra player.
The thing about Morgan I noticed straight away was how involved he was right across the pitch. Really wanting to be involved. It's the very least you can offer as a young player.
He seems a nice lad though and technically sound so I hope it works out for him. |
I think you’ve nailed the difference between Morgan and EDB/Madsen: that hunger to be involved as much as possible and to be brave with the ball whilst looking forward to start an attack.
The easy option for a central midfielder is to look for the quick short pass backwards and let somebody else take responsibility and not take a risk. Unfortunately EDB and Madsen currently fall into this category, the master of which was Andre Dozzell. |  | | |
| EDB Signs new contract on 02:42 - Jan 14 with 50 views | VancouverHoop |
| EDB Signs new contract on 20:26 - Jan 13 by Ned_Kennedys |
I think you’ve nailed the difference between Morgan and EDB/Madsen: that hunger to be involved as much as possible and to be brave with the ball whilst looking forward to start an attack.
The easy option for a central midfielder is to look for the quick short pass backwards and let somebody else take responsibility and not take a risk. Unfortunately EDB and Madsen currently fall into this category, the master of which was Andre Dozzell. |
Comparisons between Madsen and Dozzell are premature. The latter was with us for four years and scored two goals. Madsen has scored two in half a season. I'll wait until this time next year before passing judgement. He's a slow learner for sure, but he can place a cross field pass to an open man better than most players at this level, he just doesn't do it often enough... yet. It's worth remembering patience is a supposed to be virtue. However if he's still as clueless as he looks now next Christmas I'll happily join you on the firing squad. | | | |
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