| Amit has stepped down 12:03 - Nov 1 with 30786 views | A40Bosh |
Hoos has the lot! |  |
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| Amit has stepped down on 15:56 - Nov 1 with 3169 views | Hunterhoop |
| Amit has stepped down on 15:44 - Nov 1 by BostonR |
Aren’t you forgetting the value of the ground as an asset? I’m broadly in agreement with you but having been in global real estate re-investment most of my career, I rarely see owners, shareholders or institutional investors give stuff away for free. |
Obviously your assets contribute to any valuations. But the covenants on the land I believe restrict the value it has. That value - in terms of sale value - is only a one off source of income so much less relevant than your repeatable ebitda, of which we have none.
Even if you value the ground at, what 50m? 100m? It’s only a few years worth of ongoing losses to offset, and your losses will increase with having to rent elsewhere, or you’ll be throwing multiples of that at a ground development deal miles away.
The only reasons you buy the club are:
a) massive ego and want to be involved in English football
b) money to burn, possibly combined with a)
c) you believe there is a way to generating a profitable income stream (presumably through promotion to the Prem and a new ground somewhere else that can become an income stream not a cost burden.
d) you want the land to sell off/develop and screw the football club asap!
The EFL should be preventing options a) and d). “Should”.
There is no pot of gold you’re buying today that is worth anything. Option c requires investment beyond that which you pay the current shareholders and the ongoing losses you have to fund month to month.
I think the current shareholder would be lucky to get anything for their shares. |  | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 15:56 - Nov 1 with 3164 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
Amit fell on his sword as his position was untenable after the Ainsworth debacle.
We might now be able to get a proper structure in place. New CEO, new DoF, with no interference. I think it could, in the long term, be the best thing to happen to us.
Bizarrely, could it be that the appointment of GA was the catalyst for positive change at QPR? |  | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 15:57 - Nov 1 with 3162 views | TheChef |
| Amit has stepped down on 15:41 - Nov 1 by slmrstid |
Bit Craig David this QPR week.
Sacked a manager on Saturday, met a new manager Monday, Chairman resigned Wednesday.
What's in for Thursday/Friday? |
The Apocalypse?
*grabs deckchair and popcorn* |  |
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| Amit has stepped down on 15:59 - Nov 1 with 3121 views | Blue_Castello |
| Amit has stepped down on 15:16 - Nov 1 by 1JD |
Agree with this. Personally I think far too much is being read into this. Loads of speculation of ownership change, but the data supports the opposite. The owners - mainly Ruben - have just spent 20m on the new training ground. And Amit and Ruben have pumped extra funds into the club; further demonstrating their support of the club as shareholders and owners. Presumably a. To support the managerial change and b. To support the jan transfer window, as we need a big turnaround this season on the pitch.
So far, the only thing that has really happened, it a title change for Amit - that’s it. And Amit was always a figurehead chairman anyway. Meanwhile they’ve been open about attracting extra investment - if they can find the right party who adds new value. That may or may not be happening behind the scenes also. |
Exactly there's far too many going for the conspiracy theory but I guess that's the time we live in, as Clive said on Page 2 this is positive news. So far this week the club has appointed a new young progressive manager who wants to play attractive football and now they have announced two additional sponsorship deals which will create more funding and improve the balance sheet to assist with the nightmare of complying with FFP.
Amit stepping aside because he can't dedicate as much time to the club as he feels it requires is a positive move, he is staying on the board if he was leaving that would be more of a concern, I find it highly unlikely that they are looking for new owners whilst simultaneously sponsoring stands, stadiums and training grounds. | | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 16:11 - Nov 1 with 3032 views | LongRanger |
| Amit has stepped down on 15:14 - Nov 1 by BuckR |
That sort of defeats the object of a DOF doesn't it? |
Agree, I didn't word it well, I wasn't suggesting MC would have said who the DOF should be, but that I'd assume he's been taken through the plan and agreed to work in a structure with a DOF in place. | | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 16:14 - Nov 1 with 2992 views | NewBee |
| Amit has stepped down on 15:44 - Nov 1 by BostonR |
Aren’t you forgetting the value of the ground as an asset? I’m broadly in agreement with you but having been in global real estate re-investment most of my career, I rarely see owners, shareholders or institutional investors give stuff away for free. |
Except an asset is only an asset if/when you can realise it.
And in its present form, the "asset" permits the owners to lose £1.5m(?) a month.
Of course they could sell LR for a very tidy sum to realise the asset's value, but where is the club going to play then?
I am reminded when that nasty old crook Ron Noades took over Brentford and, as a Property Developer by trade, announced his intention to sell Griffin Park, as the only way to clear the club's debts.
Which sounded reasonable enough on the face of it, except that the second part of his grand plan was to move the club 30 miles away from Brentford, to ground-share with Woking FC!
Now tbf to your present owners, having looked at possible alternative sites to relocate QPR, they have concluded that there is nothing suitable which is both available and affordable, so it's back to LR.
But that means that the ground is only an "asset" in the sense that it is a wasting one. | | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 16:14 - Nov 1 with 3007 views | Andybrat |
| Amit has stepped down on 14:21 - Nov 1 by Antti_Heinola |
i dunno.
swings and roundabouts.
you could equally say, get it all done now so Cif doesn't have all the noise going on a month into his job. |
Totally agree, lots of good news here guys and girls. Sponsorship money from those who can’t run the business but still committed., New coach ( his interview is brilliant), Hoos is a business man and looks like he will be running the business without the emotion of putting his own money in. That actually makes decision making easier. If the results did start to turn, the above plus the improved tv money next year does make us a potential investment for someone. Also we have the best kit in the land , can’t be discounted if you want your name on it. Mrs Andybrat says Cif is actually a toilet cleaner but our Cif sounds nice. So there you go | | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 16:39 - Nov 1 with 2863 views | Hunterhoop |
| Amit has stepped down on 15:56 - Nov 1 by Hunterhoop |
Obviously your assets contribute to any valuations. But the covenants on the land I believe restrict the value it has. That value - in terms of sale value - is only a one off source of income so much less relevant than your repeatable ebitda, of which we have none.
Even if you value the ground at, what 50m? 100m? It’s only a few years worth of ongoing losses to offset, and your losses will increase with having to rent elsewhere, or you’ll be throwing multiples of that at a ground development deal miles away.
The only reasons you buy the club are:
a) massive ego and want to be involved in English football
b) money to burn, possibly combined with a)
c) you believe there is a way to generating a profitable income stream (presumably through promotion to the Prem and a new ground somewhere else that can become an income stream not a cost burden.
d) you want the land to sell off/develop and screw the football club asap!
The EFL should be preventing options a) and d). “Should”.
There is no pot of gold you’re buying today that is worth anything. Option c requires investment beyond that which you pay the current shareholders and the ongoing losses you have to fund month to month.
I think the current shareholder would be lucky to get anything for their shares. |
And I should add that one of the ways to do option c) is to borrow against the existing asset you have - your ground. Isn’t this the exact play the Burnley owners have done? Or have I misunderstood that? Someone more knowledgeable on both Burnley and finance could probably advise.
I agree with you about the normal business world and investors not giving anything away for free, btw. But if QPR was a normal business we’d have been wound up years ago. We make no profit and we have no working capital that isn’t investor funded. In normal sectors you wouldn’t be able to give us away! | | | |
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| Amit has stepped down on 16:39 - Nov 1 with 2851 views | BostonR |
| Amit has stepped down on 16:14 - Nov 1 by NewBee |
Except an asset is only an asset if/when you can realise it.
And in its present form, the "asset" permits the owners to lose £1.5m(?) a month.
Of course they could sell LR for a very tidy sum to realise the asset's value, but where is the club going to play then?
I am reminded when that nasty old crook Ron Noades took over Brentford and, as a Property Developer by trade, announced his intention to sell Griffin Park, as the only way to clear the club's debts.
Which sounded reasonable enough on the face of it, except that the second part of his grand plan was to move the club 30 miles away from Brentford, to ground-share with Woking FC!
Now tbf to your present owners, having looked at possible alternative sites to relocate QPR, they have concluded that there is nothing suitable which is both available and affordable, so it's back to LR.
But that means that the ground is only an "asset" in the sense that it is a wasting one. |
That’s a load of fluff to be frank. The owners know they need to throw £2M a month at QPR to keep it afloat as do the fans. I doubt Ruben is going to do a Ron Noades - in fact he has done the opposite! We still own and play at LR and under the current ownership that will continue.
What’s your point? |  | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 16:55 - Nov 1 with 2713 views | Hunterhoop |
| Amit has stepped down on 15:16 - Nov 1 by 1JD |
Agree with this. Personally I think far too much is being read into this. Loads of speculation of ownership change, but the data supports the opposite. The owners - mainly Ruben - have just spent 20m on the new training ground. And Amit and Ruben have pumped extra funds into the club; further demonstrating their support of the club as shareholders and owners. Presumably a. To support the managerial change and b. To support the jan transfer window, as we need a big turnaround this season on the pitch.
So far, the only thing that has really happened, it a title change for Amit - that’s it. And Amit was always a figurehead chairman anyway. Meanwhile they’ve been open about attracting extra investment - if they can find the right party who adds new value. That may or may not be happening behind the scenes also. |
That last sentence is the point of discussion. All some people are suggesting is that this news, and recent moves, perhaps coupled with other things some might have heard, lead them to think additional investment, perhaps causing a change in ownership, is happening behind the scenes rather than is not. Of course both are possibilities. You either think they are or are not though. You can’t think both as they are mutually exclusive.
Personally, I’d rather they weren’t given how the current owners fund the club and convert the debt to equity. I’d much rather just have Hoos, a new DOF, and this new manager run the show with Board simply funding our losses.
However, personally I don’t think that is what will happen. I think they are desperate for new investment and that investment comes in return for shares, which diminish existing board members shareholdings. Have long been suspicious of what Reilly is here for. And one or two other things I’ve heard make me think a change in ownership in the coming months is a distinct possibility. Could be good news. Could be bad news. Don’t know that!
And of course, I could very much be wrong! As suggested above, I kind of hope I am in a “better the devil you know” way. [Post edited 1 Nov 2023 17:01]
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| Amit has stepped down on 17:24 - Nov 1 with 2556 views | Bedford_R |
I'm not in the know or anything like that but this seems to be a long time coming. For years now myself and my QPR cohorts have been saying that something is rotten at the heart of QPR. Whilst we changed the manager 22 times since I became a Season Ticket holder the people upstairs who have dodged far too many bullets and not taken responsibility for the terrible state the club has been languishing in for years remained the same. The managers over the years have been the scapegoats for years of mismanagement at the highest level.
In my role as an Engagement Manager for a Consultancy firm I don't know anything about anything. But I make sure that I surround myself with people that know everything about everything in their specialist field. My job is to get them working together cohesively without BS, get the best out of them to get the job done. Hope QPR is going this way instead of being somebody's part time hobby. QPR is a business, in the entrainment and sporting business and needs to be run more like a business not a plaything.
Us fans deserve better then the dross we have been served up over the last several seasons. We'll still be here long after the current owners, board and players have long gone.
Rant over. I'll get back in my box now. [Post edited 1 Nov 2023 17:28]
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| Amit has stepped down on 17:33 - Nov 1 with 2493 views | PunteR |
| Amit has stepped down on 14:04 - Nov 1 by Northernr |
I don't know mate, so I'm not going to speculate otherwise people will be like 'oooh Clive says we're being sold'.
As I've said before, to buy QPR now would put you on the hook for a lot of money immediately, with no FFP room to do anything about the team, so you'd have to be ballsy. You'd be better off letting it go to Lg One and buying it then.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Even with the new TV deal in the championship ? Wouldn't someone want to buy a championship club rather then a cheap L1 club.? |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Amit has stepped down on 17:38 - Nov 1 with 2455 views | CateLeBonR |
| Amit has stepped down on 16:11 - Nov 1 by LongRanger |
Agree, I didn't word it well, I wasn't suggesting MC would have said who the DOF should be, but that I'd assume he's been taken through the plan and agreed to work in a structure with a DOF in place. |
I went down a DOF rabbit hole last night and I’ve persuaded myself that we’re going to appoint Ola Larsson. The former Hammarby Technical Directer who joined IFK Göteborg last year. I know nothing about him, I don’t even know if he speaks English but he’s Swedish so he must do! Anyone else will be a disappointment now!
#ANNOUNCE OLA |  | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 17:41 - Nov 1 with 2432 views | Rangersw12 |
| Amit has stepped down on 15:31 - Nov 1 by DavieQPR |
Hearing there is a big announcement tomorrow. |
Where have you seen that ? | | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 17:47 - Nov 1 with 2391 views | NewBee |
| Amit has stepped down on 16:39 - Nov 1 by BostonR |
That’s a load of fluff to be frank. The owners know they need to throw £2M a month at QPR to keep it afloat as do the fans. I doubt Ruben is going to do a Ron Noades - in fact he has done the opposite! We still own and play at LR and under the current ownership that will continue.
What’s your point? |
My point is simple.
LR is not an "asset" in the conventional sense, since its value could only be realised by selling it for redevelopment. Which in the absence of an alternative stadium site, which would almost certainly cost even more than the proceeds from selling LR, would leave QPR homeless.
Now tbf to your present owners, they're not like eg Noades, and clearly have no intention of doing so.
But that being so, LR remains only as the home of a club which is losing £18m(?) a year. And worse still, while remaining your home, it is costing ever more to maintain, for ever less of a return*.
Though you might call it a "wasting asset":
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wastingasset.asp
* - As it becomes ever harder to justify ticket price increases, even to keep up with inflation. | | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 17:48 - Nov 1 with 2389 views | Monkey_Roots |
| Amit has stepped down on 13:35 - Nov 1 by Northernr |
Well, like I say, I think events of the last few weeks have accelerated a few things.
From what our new Swedish friend tells us, Cifuentes has known for weeks but wanted to finish the Swedish season and they've had to accelerate that because Ainsworth was so unmercifully crap.
Bhatia's golf exploits has brought home that he's not the popular figurehead he was. Hoos has clearly been checking out for sometime. Ideally you'd wait until a new CEO is in place but the anger about lack of change and absent owners and pissy CEO has been growing, so do that now.
Hopefully these sponsorships are somebody at finance/commercial level finally waking up, rather than something else that's been brought to a head by an FFP problem. |
When you say Hoos has been checking out, and then in the next breath you say he’ll be moved upstairs… so, in contrast to what i immediately thought, being Hoos was gonna be the big man on campus, you say this is all temporary and being moved upstairs is not a promotion, but more of a ‘get him out of the way’. That right? |  | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 17:49 - Nov 1 with 2383 views | QPRConor2000 |
| Amit has stepped down on 17:41 - Nov 1 by Rangersw12 |
Where have you seen that ? |
I think the announcement was that Amit Bhatia was stepping aside as Chairman, it only mentioned Lee Hoos potentially going on talksport tomorrow to talk about the appointment of Marti Cifuentes. [Post edited 1 Nov 2023 17:55]
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| Amit has stepped down on 17:53 - Nov 1 with 2337 views | slmrstid |
| Amit has stepped down on 17:47 - Nov 1 by NewBee |
My point is simple.
LR is not an "asset" in the conventional sense, since its value could only be realised by selling it for redevelopment. Which in the absence of an alternative stadium site, which would almost certainly cost even more than the proceeds from selling LR, would leave QPR homeless.
Now tbf to your present owners, they're not like eg Noades, and clearly have no intention of doing so.
But that being so, LR remains only as the home of a club which is losing £18m(?) a year. And worse still, while remaining your home, it is costing ever more to maintain, for ever less of a return*.
Though you might call it a "wasting asset":
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wastingasset.asp
* - As it becomes ever harder to justify ticket price increases, even to keep up with inflation. |
Whilst an asset's value can be realised by selling it, it can also be realised by borrowing against it, and it also provides value in not having rental costs associated with it which supports a P&L account.
Bit too simplistic to simply call it a wasting asset IMO.
Whilst the published accounts don't give a breakdown, we had £17.7m of freehold land & buildings in our May 2022 accounts. That's not including the training ground as that is under its own section in the fixed asset register. |  | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 18:02 - Nov 1 with 2270 views | QPRConor2000 |
I personally think there is definitely some kind of major restructure going on behind the scenes, maybe the fact that Lee has gone to being the Chairman as well as the CEO means that there is likely perhaps to be a new CEO coming, with Lee Hoos potentially moving upstairs at the end of the season.
Reading between the lines, this does suggest there is likely to be new investors possibly coming which in time could take a majority stake in the club, this probably explains why Lee Hoos is the Chairman as some kind of interim stop gap.
it does tell me there is a major change coming possibly by the end of the season | | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 18:06 - Nov 1 with 2214 views | NewBee |
| Amit has stepped down on 14:04 - Nov 1 by Northernr |
I don't know mate, so I'm not going to speculate otherwise people will be like 'oooh Clive says we're being sold'.
As I've said before, to buy QPR now would put you on the hook for a lot of money immediately, with no FFP room to do anything about the team, so you'd have to be ballsy. You'd be better off letting it go to Lg One and buying it then.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Re your last sentence, on the face of it, you may be correct.
But another way of looking at it is that relegation would just mean you're able to put more money into what is currently a loss-making club.
And that extra investment will either secure promotion again, or it won't. If it's the latter, then you're still in Lge One, but with even less money. While if it's the former, you've just spent money to get you back to where you were before.
Now I know people often think that dropping down allows you to "reboot and start again". But while extra investment can help towards that end, ultimately you need to spend it wisely, via good management and leadership etc. And if clubs had that, then they wouldn't be in danger of getting relegated in the first place!
Another way of looking at it is that while certain clubs may buck the trend for a while, all EFL clubs are essentially loss-making enterprises. Meaning that the usual reason people buy such clubs is for their EFL membership. Which in turn gives you the possibility of getting to the Promised Land of the PL.
Of course we all know how difficult it is to get there (understatement), but surely it must be easier if you only need one promotion to make it, rather than two?
EDIT: Just seen PunteR's point about extra TV money for the Championship next season which, with a possible revision of parachute payments etc, makes Championship status even more attractive, no? [Post edited 1 Nov 2023 18:09]
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| Amit has stepped down on 18:25 - Nov 1 with 2116 views | NewBee |
| Amit has stepped down on 17:53 - Nov 1 by slmrstid |
Whilst an asset's value can be realised by selling it, it can also be realised by borrowing against it, and it also provides value in not having rental costs associated with it which supports a P&L account.
Bit too simplistic to simply call it a wasting asset IMO.
Whilst the published accounts don't give a breakdown, we had £17.7m of freehold land & buildings in our May 2022 accounts. That's not including the training ground as that is under its own section in the fixed asset register. |
"Whilst an asset's value can be realised by selling it, it can also be realised by borrowing against it"
And once you've borrowed, what have you got left? Increased debt, which will have to be repaid one way or another, usually subject to compound interest etc.
Now that's ok if you can use the money borrowed to produce a greater revenue than you are paying in interest. For example, you may own a buy-to-let property and borrow against the equity to extend it into the loft or garden etc, so that the increased rental receipts will outweigh the extra interest.
But how could borrowing against LR produce extra revenue? The ground itself is severely limited (can't extend into the Loft there, pun intended). You could invest in the playing staff, but there's no guarantee that they'll get you promoted - and that's before FFP restrictions. The new training ground looks to be a good job, but whatever benefit that brings in terms of attracting/developing better players etc, is still hardly guaranteed and besides, will likely only be gradual and some years down the line.
How else could you use extra borrowing to generate a profit? The obvious one would be to build a bigger, more modern ground like eg Spurs. But that cannot be done on the present site, and your owners seem unable/unwilling to find an alternative one. | | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 18:30 - Nov 1 with 2092 views | DejR_vu |
The role of Chairman is often overstated imo. It's a figurehead role. The CEO should be at the centre of everything . He should be running the show, with senior Heads reporting into him (CFO etc.). What's been going wrong at QPR ever since the owners came in is that, when they feel like it, they've been running the show, and then making appeasement decisions to try to brush over their mistakes. Owners, should be owners, unless they have a specialism that helps the club. If not, they should be in the shadows and the CEO should be running it with those Heads, including a, genuine, Director of Football. Even TF, I'm sure, when he bought his F1 team didn't get the crayons out and design the car. For some reason, they seem to have thought that they could walk in to a football club and know enough to run it.
Amit was parachuted in as Chairman when the heat got too much, because he was a crowd pleaser and a smooth talker. He had everyone eating out of the palm of his hand at the Fans' Forum, despite everything. He was saying that he was at games even if he couldn't be seen, now a few weeks later, one of the reasons for his departure is that he's too busy? He knows how to schmooze.
It's good that he's stepped down imo. As long as it's for the right reasons it shows some leadership and some taking of responsibility for what's happened here. However, what needs to happen now is that the owners take a step back, employ good, knowledgeable people, who make the right decisions more often than not, back them and enjoy the results. QPR isn't a toy to be played with.
Credit to them all for putting even more money in. Let's hope they appoint a decent DoF to go with the new manager, back them, leave them alone, persevere with them, and then start to reap and enjoy the benefits. | |
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| Amit has stepped down on 18:43 - Nov 1 with 2016 views | Northolt_Rs |
| Amit has stepped down on 18:30 - Nov 1 by DejR_vu |
The role of Chairman is often overstated imo. It's a figurehead role. The CEO should be at the centre of everything . He should be running the show, with senior Heads reporting into him (CFO etc.). What's been going wrong at QPR ever since the owners came in is that, when they feel like it, they've been running the show, and then making appeasement decisions to try to brush over their mistakes. Owners, should be owners, unless they have a specialism that helps the club. If not, they should be in the shadows and the CEO should be running it with those Heads, including a, genuine, Director of Football. Even TF, I'm sure, when he bought his F1 team didn't get the crayons out and design the car. For some reason, they seem to have thought that they could walk in to a football club and know enough to run it.
Amit was parachuted in as Chairman when the heat got too much, because he was a crowd pleaser and a smooth talker. He had everyone eating out of the palm of his hand at the Fans' Forum, despite everything. He was saying that he was at games even if he couldn't be seen, now a few weeks later, one of the reasons for his departure is that he's too busy? He knows how to schmooze.
It's good that he's stepped down imo. As long as it's for the right reasons it shows some leadership and some taking of responsibility for what's happened here. However, what needs to happen now is that the owners take a step back, employ good, knowledgeable people, who make the right decisions more often than not, back them and enjoy the results. QPR isn't a toy to be played with.
Credit to them all for putting even more money in. Let's hope they appoint a decent DoF to go with the new manager, back them, leave them alone, persevere with them, and then start to reap and enjoy the benefits. |
“ Even TF, I'm sure, when he bought his F1 team didn't get the crayons out and design the car.” I bet he did ‘to scratch that itch’….. |  |
| Scooters, Tunes, Trainers and QPR. |
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| Amit has stepped down on 19:00 - Nov 1 with 1915 views | QPRConor2000 |
| Amit has stepped down on 18:43 - Nov 1 by Northolt_Rs |
“ Even TF, I'm sure, when he bought his F1 team didn't get the crayons out and design the car.” I bet he did ‘to scratch that itch’….. |
I wonder if Crayola will be lined up for a sponsorship deal for the Loft End next. | | | |
| Amit has stepped down on 19:15 - Nov 1 with 1848 views | Lblock |
Copying what I said earlier
Shame
The reason we got where we did was down to him and Ishkhan that glorious season.
He’s a top fella as well.
I feel he’s stepped back due to GA being a flop and clearly “his man”.
Hope Amit (and his family) are back in the future
Thanks for the good times
Adding that I had the pleasure of meeting and speaking with him twice and I found him warm and engaging |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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