| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches 05:35 - May 17 with 9195 views | westy |
I realise I may get a few pelters for this but it’s true.
Look at Luton v Sunderland last night in the play off.
Luton 37% possession win the game 2 - 0 tbf quite comfortably.
They had more total shots 16 - 11
More on target 5 - 1
Committed more fouls 12 - 9
Had more corners 7 - 5
Yet nearly 200 less completed passes 283 - 479.
Proof if needed that hard work, solid grit and determination can and more often than the purists would like to admit does result in winning football matches.
You need a certain type of player to achieve this and yes it’s usually the teams with the lighter budgets who adopt these tactics but does that make them less of a player.
So called flair players can sometimes lack the drive, the mentality and the total commitment required to get you out of a situation.
Going 1 -0 down with these type of players normally results in a defeat. However with the more industrial type of player they have the belief and hunger to get back into these games and dig themselves out.
Look at some of our video training clips for example. And these are only short clips.
Certain players strutting around, posing, giving it large. These same players who give so little on a match day if it doesn’t go to plan from the outset. The same players constantly talking behind their hands giving out side eye.
No club in our position can afford to have too many of these types around.
One or two yes maybe as you certainly do need match winners as well, however any more and that’s where you see the little cliques appearing trying to disrupt.
Maybe as GA has stated this week that it is time for a reset and a realisation of where QPR actually sit right now.
But give me results over substance any day of the week.
I wonder who the happier supporters are this morning Luton or Sunderland
[Post edited 17 May 2023 5:43]
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 16:09 - May 17 with 1925 views | kernowhoop |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 07:31 - May 17 by Rs_Holy |
My thoughts exactly westy.... difficult to cook cordon bleu food when you are shopping at Lidl. |
We know what you mean, RsHoly, but that is somewhat unkind to Lidl. | | | |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 17:13 - May 17 with 1817 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 08:41 - May 17 by stevec |
GA, for next season, is still stuck with a lot of players under contract who are simply not good enough at this level, irrespective of whatever style we play.
Luton was a real eye opener. I was trying to picture Martin closing down up front with that intensity. Even Dykes, he does occupy defenders better but again he’s rarely winning balls off defenders. Had a chuckle trying to picture Dozzell (or Amos) winning so many duels. Our full backs stepping in knowing that if they did get done, someone would tuck in behind at speed.
90 minutes and still bossing the park. You can barely get 60 minutes out of our lot at half that intensity.
Quite honestly, I’d only trust Field, Dunne and Paal (maybe Dickie) to perform at that level of intensity and physical strength. So what does GA do with the rest of our piss weak squad? |
If it were me, I would be shipping out (or failing that, paying off) Dozzell, Dykes, Martin, and Jojo at a minimum. Also sell Dieng if any takers. Dickie I'm on the fence about. Chair we need to keep, but only if he's played as a no.10. As for the twinkletoed-turned-shell of the player formerly known as Chris Willock, GA needs to sit down with him, our physios and any psychologist within earshot and work out where his head and body are at. However, as been pointed out, economics may force the club's hand if we get a decent/improbable bid for him, as others may well be right about his QPR career being shot. It comes to something when the Club ambassador is questioning his professionalism on comms during a live game.
I'd say we need a minimum of 5-10 incoming players, bearing in mind the released players and the returning loans. There's not a playing nucleus to work with. There's Chair, Field, and after that I'm scratching my head. In the end, Reading's plight aside, we stayed up by a single draw.
If GA intends to start 2023/4 with Dykes and Martin up front, the bones of this campaign's midfield, and the clearly talented but apparently mentally challenged Richards thrown in as out talisman, we might sas well lump on for relegation now. God knows what'll happen with season ticket sales in that eventuality.
Optimistic I am not. [Post edited 17 May 2023 17:15]
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 17:38 - May 17 with 1812 views | E15Hoop |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 16:08 - May 17 by westy |
Exactly the point. Only the very best can do both it seems. Winning doesn’t just happen. We all know many a footballer who coulda woulda shoulda made it as a pro and we all know a few that you’d think were never good enough to have been a pro but made a career out of it.
It’s the mentality that is the difference. Those who are prepared to go to horrible places in their mind, body and soul to get results no matter what.
These are the differences no matter what standard they are playing at. Whether it be non-league or as a pro.
Ability will get you to a level. Mental strength and a self drive beyond belief will get you to the level above. [Post edited 17 May 2023 16:12]
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"Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard".
Oft quoted mantra that I believe is to be found on the walls at Heston, no less. | | | |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 17:47 - May 17 with 1805 views | WatfordR |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 17:38 - May 17 by E15Hoop |
"Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard".
Oft quoted mantra that I believe is to be found on the walls at Heston, no less. |
Is there anything on the walls of Heston to tell the hard worker what to do when talent does work hard? |  | | |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 17:52 - May 17 with 1792 views | westy |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 17:38 - May 17 by E15Hoop |
"Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard".
Oft quoted mantra that I believe is to be found on the walls at Heston, no less. |
So true CEO 👠| | | |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 18:05 - May 17 with 1779 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 15:33 - May 17 by R_from_afar |
Fair points, Brian, but we should not take "We can't afford to play like Man. City" to mean that we will instead play hoofball.
It's not a binary choice between the Man City way - I wish - or hoofball, and you yourself say there are "a myriad of ways" to play.
I'll say again that the many Wycombe games I have seen with Gareth at the helm were not based on hoofball. The ball was usually moved forward quickly, often down the wings, but a lot of the passing was on the deck and there weren't endless long, hopeful balls. There was nearly always, if not, always, a tall targetman, but it was wasn't long punt after long punt and their teams weren't Pulis style land of the giants outfits.
We'll see, though. |
"Fair points, Brian, but we should not take "We can't afford to play like Man. City" to mean that we will instead play hoofball."
I'm honestly not taking it that way, R. I just reject the premise, if that was indeed this premise, that good football costs more, and also that those who would like good football neccessarily expect us to play like Man. City. |  |
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 18:07 - May 17 with 1761 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 15:52 - May 17 by WatfordR |
Not only is it possible, I'd suggest that is what makes the most successful teams achieve the results they do. Have a look at how hard Citeh work to get the ball back when they are not in possession.
I've said this before, the idea that the very best players don't work hard, don't have the drive, the "energy and enthusiasm" is ridiculous. It's just a given that they do, and what separates them is the exceptional footballing talent that they have.
There's some who seem to think that energy and enthusiasm and commitment to the cause on it's own is enough, and even at Championship level, it won't be, certainly if you have any ambition for anything more than the safety and cozy comfort of 16th place. It's just a lazy lack of ambition dressed up as achievement, maybe even with some people as "massive achievement".
Having said all that, I do recognise that we do need a bit more steel throughout the spine of the side. The 2010 versions of Shaun Derry and Clint Hill would have transformed us last season in much the way as they helped to do so all those years ago. I just don't want a whole team full of them. |
Agree with all of that.
Great points. | |
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 18:57 - May 17 with 1706 views | QPR_Jim |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 17:13 - May 17 by stainrods_elbow |
If it were me, I would be shipping out (or failing that, paying off) Dozzell, Dykes, Martin, and Jojo at a minimum. Also sell Dieng if any takers. Dickie I'm on the fence about. Chair we need to keep, but only if he's played as a no.10. As for the twinkletoed-turned-shell of the player formerly known as Chris Willock, GA needs to sit down with him, our physios and any psychologist within earshot and work out where his head and body are at. However, as been pointed out, economics may force the club's hand if we get a decent/improbable bid for him, as others may well be right about his QPR career being shot. It comes to something when the Club ambassador is questioning his professionalism on comms during a live game.
I'd say we need a minimum of 5-10 incoming players, bearing in mind the released players and the returning loans. There's not a playing nucleus to work with. There's Chair, Field, and after that I'm scratching my head. In the end, Reading's plight aside, we stayed up by a single draw.
If GA intends to start 2023/4 with Dykes and Martin up front, the bones of this campaign's midfield, and the clearly talented but apparently mentally challenged Richards thrown in as out talisman, we might sas well lump on for relegation now. God knows what'll happen with season ticket sales in that eventuality.
Optimistic I am not. [Post edited 17 May 2023 17:15]
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When I look at the Luton team I do wonder what the reaction would have been if we had signed the player's they did at the time.
Adebayo - Not even getting 1 in 3 for Walsall and 1 in 4 across 100 games in the lower leagues.
Tom Lockyer - Short for a center back and relegated the previous season with Charlton.
I'm sure there are other possibly better examples in the squad but I think either signing would have lead to a meltdown online and calls for Belk to be sacked before they'd even kicked a ball.
In addition to the points about fitness and athleticism, I think it goes to show that a player given simple instructions and a clear idea of their role can out perform better players without that clarity in what they're doing. So perhaps Kelman and Armstrong up front with Dykes and a clear plan to execute will do well, who knows. Maybe some of the younger players that you want clearing out can be salvaged with a decent preseason and a change of tactics. |  | | |
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 20:33 - May 17 with 1653 views | E15Hoop |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 17:47 - May 17 by WatfordR |
Is there anything on the walls of Heston to tell the hard worker what to do when talent does work hard? |
You haven't really entered into the spirit of this, have you.. | | | |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 08:57 - May 18 with 1506 views | terryb |
And then there is the opposite!
Real Madrid didn't come close to winning last night. That might have something to do with having such little possession! | | | |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 11:45 - May 18 with 1443 views | LazyFan |
Leicester won the Prem with the lowest possession over the entire season.
We can go back and forth on this. The reality is this ... It's about tactics over possession.
The crazy gang were masters of this. They used to say ... "they can play their pretty little triangles, but we shall win the game". Especially when they were talking about Liverpool, who they used to beat often and not just in FA Cup Finals.
If the team's tactics are correct, then the oppo already has a problem countering that. What happened in the last decade is they have all tried to play the same, so it has come down to who has the most talented players alone.
But now I see managers are changing; they can see that possession football is useful, but if you don't get it in the box early, then the chance to score is often gone. Stoke had 80% possession against us, yet had fewer shots on goal.
Kick-and-run football, I predict, is making a comeback. Lobbing it into the box for the big man to knock down is what I expect to see more of from many teams. We used to do that, Sir Les, but we also played fast winger football as well. Which is why we got into the top 6 back in the day. Mixing it up.
You will notice that City, Real have big men up front. Liverpool bought Gakpo to do this as well. The big lump is making a comeback. I expect Newcastle to buy a lump to replace Wilson soon. Everyone wants a Harry Kane, this does not reek of tippy-tappy football. |  |
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 12:30 - May 18 with 1411 views | Dorse |
Possession does, in fact, win matches. As long as you are possessed by, say, the spirit of Paolo Maldini, Lothar Matthaus or Zico rather than by Armand Traore, Ned Zelic or Eric Sabin. |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 12:32 - May 18 with 1407 views | loftboy |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 12:30 - May 18 by Dorse |
Possession does, in fact, win matches. As long as you are possessed by, say, the spirit of Paolo Maldini, Lothar Matthaus or Zico rather than by Armand Traore, Ned Zelic or Eric Sabin. |
We did get promoted with Sabin in the team, in fact his last minute winner at Grimsby was vital. |  |
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 12:37 - May 18 with 1395 views | Juzzie |
Coventry won at Middlesbrough last night with 32% possesion.
Maybe it's the new fashion? |  | | |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 12:49 - May 18 with 1361 views | E15Hoop |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 12:37 - May 18 by Juzzie |
Coventry won at Middlesbrough last night with 32% possesion.
Maybe it's the new fashion? |
With Everton as the new trailblazers!
5-1 away victory at Brighton the other week with 23% possession! | | | |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 13:11 - May 18 with 1325 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 11:45 - May 18 by LazyFan |
Leicester won the Prem with the lowest possession over the entire season.
We can go back and forth on this. The reality is this ... It's about tactics over possession.
The crazy gang were masters of this. They used to say ... "they can play their pretty little triangles, but we shall win the game". Especially when they were talking about Liverpool, who they used to beat often and not just in FA Cup Finals.
If the team's tactics are correct, then the oppo already has a problem countering that. What happened in the last decade is they have all tried to play the same, so it has come down to who has the most talented players alone.
But now I see managers are changing; they can see that possession football is useful, but if you don't get it in the box early, then the chance to score is often gone. Stoke had 80% possession against us, yet had fewer shots on goal.
Kick-and-run football, I predict, is making a comeback. Lobbing it into the box for the big man to knock down is what I expect to see more of from many teams. We used to do that, Sir Les, but we also played fast winger football as well. Which is why we got into the top 6 back in the day. Mixing it up.
You will notice that City, Real have big men up front. Liverpool bought Gakpo to do this as well. The big lump is making a comeback. I expect Newcastle to buy a lump to replace Wilson soon. Everyone wants a Harry Kane, this does not reek of tippy-tappy football. |
Yeah, Haaland, Benzema and Gakpo I suspect have never once been described as 'big lumps' - the 'big lump' is not making a comeback, they just happen to be taller players (although Benzema isn't particularly - he's 6 and a tiny bit) who are also exceptional athletes as well. I don't think there's ever been a period where a big, strong, athletic striker hasn't been an ideal, has there? City had a small period after Dzeko where Aguero was the main man, but you're talking about a really exceptional player there. A lot of rubbish being spouted about this pretty much based on the fact that Haaland is an utter freak of a human. |  |
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 13:49 - May 18 with 1276 views | Loyalitat |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 12:37 - May 18 by Juzzie |
Coventry won at Middlesbrough last night with 32% possesion.
Maybe it's the new fashion? |
Limited possession but unlike us to date under GA, they crucially are very adept with the football when they have their minimal share. They didn't just hit long, they played some intricate stuff too invariably with Hamer at the fulcrum.
Up top, the first touch and overall close control of V Gyokeres is invariably on point and is streets ahead of Lyndon Dykes. He then occupies all defenders on his own. Last night, three of Middlesbrough's defenders, right back and two centre-backs, were booked for holding him back, all during the period when he played the sole striker role. He's a fantastic outlet who can create opportunities for others and for himself.
Really impressed with Robins and Coventry as they have achieved in the absence of attacking midfielders O'Hare and Palmer. Players who would probably have contributed to their possession stats being higher. I hope they win the final as it would further vindicate the wise decision of theirs to keep Robins in post after they finished below us in season 2021/22 and when they were in the bottom three after about 10 games of this season. PUSB [Post edited 18 May 2023 14:08]
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 14:08 - May 18 with 1255 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 13:49 - May 18 by Loyalitat |
Limited possession but unlike us to date under GA, they crucially are very adept with the football when they have their minimal share. They didn't just hit long, they played some intricate stuff too invariably with Hamer at the fulcrum.
Up top, the first touch and overall close control of V Gyokeres is invariably on point and is streets ahead of Lyndon Dykes. He then occupies all defenders on his own. Last night, three of Middlesbrough's defenders, right back and two centre-backs, were booked for holding him back, all during the period when he played the sole striker role. He's a fantastic outlet who can create opportunities for others and for himself.
Really impressed with Robins and Coventry as they have achieved in the absence of attacking midfielders O'Hare and Palmer. Players who would probably have contributed to their possession stats being higher. I hope they win the final as it would further vindicate the wise decision of theirs to keep Robins in post after they finished below us in season 2021/22 and when they were in the bottom three after about 10 games of this season. PUSB [Post edited 18 May 2023 14:08]
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Good points, and links to one I've been thinking about recently: should teams be more forgiving of an under-performing season? Are managers getting sacked for seasons where if they had got just 6 or 7 more points the season would be seen as a success?
I thought last year when news was leaked about Warbs leaving 'Well, he's had a poor run this season, and a few poor runs before that and we should've made thre play-offs this year, so he can't complain.' And I don't know if he did complain, as always with Warbs, he was dignified. But when you have a manager who's done a good, solid job, and you know is a good coach based on what you've seen with your own eyes, should you just take a 'less-good' season as part of the process, and let them carry on a bit more? | |
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 14:20 - May 18 with 1249 views | Bedford_R |
What Haaland did against Real when City did not have the ball was harrass their players on the odd occasion that Real ventured forward. So he just doesn't wait to be handed the ball to score though he does this quite often. Quality player all round.
Possession stats can be misleading in isolation. As we know we won at Burnley and Stoke with about 20% possession of the ball. So it can and does work but you need a team that restricts the opposition and starving them of clear cut opportunities - this works for some teams. On the flip side not letting the opposition have the ball is also a strategy to win - look at what City did to Real.
So it depends on the players at ones disposal and the quality and manner of play of the opposition. |  |
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 14:31 - May 18 with 1215 views | HAYESBOY |
I would hazard a guess that out of all the football matches played this year in the division that the matches won would show that the majority of those matches would have the winning team having the most possession.
Again, not looking at the stats from our first 15 games whereby we were high in the league, I would think we would of had higher possession in the matches we won.
It doesn't guarantee you a win, but IMO if you have the ball more you are more likely to win the match. |  |
| Smells like a trout farm in here |
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 15:51 - May 18 with 1170 views | E15Hoop |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 14:31 - May 18 by HAYESBOY |
I would hazard a guess that out of all the football matches played this year in the division that the matches won would show that the majority of those matches would have the winning team having the most possession.
Again, not looking at the stats from our first 15 games whereby we were high in the league, I would think we would of had higher possession in the matches we won.
It doesn't guarantee you a win, but IMO if you have the ball more you are more likely to win the match. |
...Unless you happen to play for Swansea, of course. | | | |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 16:01 - May 18 with 1145 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 15:51 - May 18 by E15Hoop |
...Unless you happen to play for Swansea, of course. |
Swansea, who went unbeaten in their last 9, winning 7 of those and scoring 19 in the process and finishing 10th, one win off the play-offs? That Swansea?
I freely admit they were diabolically dull at times this season, but we scored 19 goals from 8th Nov until the end of the season.
I think you need to remember how weak the glass is in the greenhouse in which we're standing. | |
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| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 17:05 - May 18 with 1084 views | QPR_Jim |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 16:01 - May 18 by Antti_Heinola |
Swansea, who went unbeaten in their last 9, winning 7 of those and scoring 19 in the process and finishing 10th, one win off the play-offs? That Swansea?
I freely admit they were diabolically dull at times this season, but we scored 19 goals from 8th Nov until the end of the season.
I think you need to remember how weak the glass is in the greenhouse in which we're standing. |
Half of that time was with Critchley where we regularly had over 50% possession, trying to play possession football badly. So that 19 goals from 8th November covers attempting both styles.
The team was set up to play possession football by MW and the other guy, so arguably possession football should have been more effective. I think a squad with more pace and fitness can sit deep, absorb pressure then counter quickly, which is what I think GA wants to do. Whether we counter quickly by playing it long/in behind or by carrying the ball forwards doesn't really matter, I just hope it's effective and good to watch. | | | |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 17:25 - May 18 with 1067 views | WatfordR |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 12:37 - May 18 by Juzzie |
Coventry won at Middlesbrough last night with 32% possesion.
Maybe it's the new fashion? |
If the new fashion is to only have 20% possession, and both teams play that way, what is going to be happening the other 60% of the time? | | | |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 17:55 - May 18 with 1031 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Possession doesn’t necessarily win football matches on 17:25 - May 18 by WatfordR |
If the new fashion is to only have 20% possession, and both teams play that way, what is going to be happening the other 60% of the time? |
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