| Handball or not. 22:29 - Oct 28 with 4607 views | swancity |
It seems that the rule requiring a deliberate hand ball doesn't apply any longer. Or does it? There is a need to clear this up finally as there is too much uncertainty and inconsistency amongst referees.
Our classic handball incident involving joe cole showed me that no one understands the current rule not even our esteemed manager. Are players supposed to put their hands inside pockets which can be sown onto their shirts. Or is it time that we started to look at employing players with no arms.
Cole did not handle deliberately did he so its not a pen, similarly hulls player didn't handle against Tottenham. Or has the rule changed? Anyone know? |  |
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| Handball or not. on 22:33 - Oct 28 with 4074 views | borinifanclub |
The refs decision is final.... does not mean its right though!
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| Handball or not. on 22:37 - Oct 28 with 4061 views | Darran |
Dermot said on SSN earlier that it wasn't deliberate handball because Cole had turned his back on the ball and as he couldn't see where the ball was it couldn't possibly be deliberate. |  |
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| Handball or not. on 22:42 - Oct 28 with 4049 views | swancity |
| Handball or not. on 22:37 - Oct 28 by Darran |
Dermot said on SSN earlier that it wasn't deliberate handball because Cole had turned his back on the ball and as he couldn't see where the ball was it couldn't possibly be deliberate. |
Which is my understanding scruff. Seems strange then that ml wanted a pen even after watching the replay. Certainly not a pen was it. | |
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| Handball or not. on 22:56 - Oct 28 with 4025 views | SkipTheJack |
We can argue about the wording of the rule-book all day, but the way referees have been applying the rules in recent years has been quite consistent. If you try to block a cross and your arms are out-stretched or above your head then you're likely to concede a penalty. It doesn't matter about intent to handle - it's deliberate use of the arms as a potential cross-blocking surface area.
For that reason, we should have had a pen yesterday. |  | | |
| Handball or not. on 23:08 - Oct 28 with 3994 views | swancity |
| Handball or not. on 22:56 - Oct 28 by SkipTheJack |
We can argue about the wording of the rule-book all day, but the way referees have been applying the rules in recent years has been quite consistent. If you try to block a cross and your arms are out-stretched or above your head then you're likely to concede a penalty. It doesn't matter about intent to handle - it's deliberate use of the arms as a potential cross-blocking surface area.
For that reason, we should have had a pen yesterday. |
Nonsense. Cole had his back to the swans player. And it should matter about intent as that is what the rule book says. The referee association need to review it, it's becoming farcical. Players will be jumping to head a ball away at set pieces with arms at their sides soon. | |
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| Handball or not. on 01:13 - Oct 29 with 3923 views | giantstoneater |
Cole knew what he did he made himself as big as he could, he wasn`t jumping to head the ball - penalty for me. |  | | |
| Handball or not. on 07:44 - Oct 29 with 2934 views | hammy |
| Handball or not. on 01:13 - Oct 29 by giantstoneater |
Cole knew what he did he made himself as big as he could, he wasn`t jumping to head the ball - penalty for me. |
Yes, his elbows were very high and not in what might be called a natural position, which I think is a key element in deciding whether handball should be awarded. |  |
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| Handball or not. on 09:10 - Oct 29 with 2884 views | monmouth |
A penalty it an overly harsh outcome in these circumstances though. Gifting a goal and, in Spurs case twice now, the game. So that's four extra points for next to nothing. Maybe time to give a lesser sanction for something that does not stop a goal scoring opportunity and save penalties for professional fouls and stopping goal scoring opportunities wherever they occur on the pitch. I'd also only issue red cards if the penalty is missed.
Obviously none of the above will ever possibly happen, so maybe just change it to an indirect free kick for the Cole/Hull Bloke type offence if not obviously deliberate. |  |
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| Handball or not. on 09:15 - Oct 29 with 2835 views | Morfa_Same |
| Handball or not. on 23:08 - Oct 28 by swancity |
Nonsense. Cole had his back to the swans player. And it should matter about intent as that is what the rule book says. The referee association need to review it, it's becoming farcical. Players will be jumping to head a ball away at set pieces with arms at their sides soon. |
So basically you're saying that any player can charge down a cross with his arms in the air, and as long as he looks away that's OK.
My understanding has always been that if a player has his arms down there has to be intent, but if his arms are raised then it's handball whether intentional or otherwise. At least that's the rule that most referees seem to apply. |  | | |
| Handball or not. on 09:17 - Oct 29 with 2818 views | Dull1Thomas |
It's a question of consistency - Leon was penalised when the ball bounced into his arm so why not Cole.
Either both deserved a free kick or neither.
As Leon's came first it had to be a penalty.
But there again - little nudges outside the box were ignored while shirt pulling, arms around necks and shoulders, two hand pushes and arms hold players down in the box were ignored.
Intended hand ball? Seriously how can the ref know what a player intended? Some might be obvious but most aren't. | |
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| Handball or not. on 09:19 - Oct 29 with 2800 views | dameedna |
If that had been in open play would it have been given?
Ask yourself that question and the answer I would guess is yes!
However we know that when in the box a new set of rules apply.
Not sure why this should be the case.
For me Cole interfered intentionally and it was a penalty. |  | | |
| Handball or not. on 09:22 - Oct 29 with 2786 views | ScoobyWho |
| Handball or not. on 22:42 - Oct 28 by swancity |
Which is my understanding scruff. Seems strange then that ml wanted a pen even after watching the replay. Certainly not a pen was it. |
So if your not looking at the ball its not a penalty ? |  |
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| Handball or not. on 09:41 - Oct 29 with 2747 views | Tom1912 |
The rules aren't exactly clear but it's generally accepted that if your hands are in an "unnatural" position, it's a foul. This is why David Luiz started doing that ridiculous hands down behind his back routine when trying to block crosses.
There's nothing in the rules about whether you are looking or not. And it's not just "deliberate handball", it's a "deliberate act" too, with the act here being Cole raising his arm. For me, I'd always expect a penalty to be given, and I think most times it would.
Exactly the same situation against St Gallen when Tiendalli gave away a penalty.
Frustrating, but a draw was a fair result in that game anyway. | | | |
| Handball or not. on 10:19 - Oct 29 with 2703 views | somersetsimon |
| Handball or not. on 23:08 - Oct 28 by swancity |
Nonsense. Cole had his back to the swans player. And it should matter about intent as that is what the rule book says. The referee association need to review it, it's becoming farcical. Players will be jumping to head a ball away at set pieces with arms at their sides soon. |
How often do you see a handball that is genuinely deliberate? Once every 10 games?
I think the rule should be clarified. Deliberate means hand to ball, never ball to hand, so we shouldn't have had a penalty and neither should Spurs. However, I've seen plenty given against us, so even I was a bit miffed on Sunday... |  | | |
| Handball or not. on 12:39 - Oct 29 with 2628 views | JackFish |
I don't get the argument that it's not handball because he wasn't looking. If you jump with your arms outstretched then there's a decent chance the ball will hit one of them, whether you're looking or not. If your arm is up at head height and the ball hits your arm, how can that not be handball? |  | | |
| Handball or not. on 15:57 - Oct 29 with 2534 views | Plasticman |
| Handball or not. on 12:39 - Oct 29 by JackFish |
I don't get the argument that it's not handball because he wasn't looking. If you jump with your arms outstretched then there's a decent chance the ball will hit one of them, whether you're looking or not. If your arm is up at head height and the ball hits your arm, how can that not be handball? |
I guess maybe players should turn their back to the shooter at free kicks then, and just stretch out their arms, cause it can't be deliberate if it hit their arms while they are outstretched if their backs are turned to the shooter, right?  |  |
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| Handball or not. on 17:17 - Oct 29 with 2502 views | ymaohyd |
All I know is that during my football supporting life, every decision seems to have gone against whichever side I support! Namely the Wales against Scotland incidents and conversely I can think of a number of Swans games where we haven't had the decision that were similar to the 2nd Scotland handball at Ninian Park! |  |
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| Handball or not. on 17:33 - Oct 29 with 2486 views | SkipTheJack |
| Handball or not. on 17:17 - Oct 29 by ymaohyd |
All I know is that during my football supporting life, every decision seems to have gone against whichever side I support! Namely the Wales against Scotland incidents and conversely I can think of a number of Swans games where we haven't had the decision that were similar to the 2nd Scotland handball at Ninian Park! |
I know what you mean, but I think there's also a tendency for us to only remember the decisions that go against us.
I seem to recall that the penalty we had for handball in THAT match against Hull was pretty soft. And the penalty that Fabio Borini won at Wembley would probably be waved away more often than given. | | | |
| Handball or not. on 17:41 - Oct 29 with 2475 views | 2face |
| Handball or not. on 17:17 - Oct 29 by ymaohyd |
All I know is that during my football supporting life, every decision seems to have gone against whichever side I support! Namely the Wales against Scotland incidents and conversely I can think of a number of Swans games where we haven't had the decision that were similar to the 2nd Scotland handball at Ninian Park! |
This is how i understood ML.
Even if you are not moving your hand relative to you body. If you are positioning yourself to block the ball and it hits your hand. Then it's a penalty. Because by the fact that you are moving your whole body, you are also moving your hand.
On the other hand If you are standing still and and not moving your hand and it hits your hand then it's not a penalty. | | | |
| Handball or not. on 23:16 - Oct 29 with 2421 views | swancity |
| Handball or not. on 17:41 - Oct 29 by 2face |
This is how i understood ML.
Even if you are not moving your hand relative to you body. If you are positioning yourself to block the ball and it hits your hand. Then it's a penalty. Because by the fact that you are moving your whole body, you are also moving your hand.
On the other hand If you are standing still and and not moving your hand and it hits your hand then it's not a penalty. |
As I suspected no one knows what the current rule is, myself included. You cannot jump up to head a ball with your arms at your side. It is also a means of protecting yourself. Until the rule is changed, there must be a movement of the hand to deliberately strike the ball. Ie hand to ball not ball to hand which was the old simple way of making a decision. I wouldn't mind betting that the ref at the spurs v hull city game last weekend hasn't ever kicked a competitive ball. | |
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| Handball or not. on 00:18 - Oct 30 with 2405 views | duckling |
Make it easier on the ref and do one of the following: 1) Indirect freekick in the box unless it was a goal preventing action, 2) Note it down and have all penalties taken at the end of the game(gives the refs more time to look at the situation in replay, 3) New rule freekick with a limitation on players in the box( Perhaps 3 def and 2 atk) | | | |
| Handball or not. on 06:44 - Oct 30 with 2375 views | Dr_Winston |
Easiest way to do it is to get rid of the idea of "intent".
If the players arms are outstretched or away from his body, then it's a penalty, regardles of intent. |  |
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| Handball or not. on 08:40 - Oct 30 with 2331 views | swancity |
| Handball or not. on 06:44 - Oct 30 by Dr_Winston |
Easiest way to do it is to get rid of the idea of "intent".
If the players arms are outstretched or away from his body, then it's a penalty, regardles of intent. |
Then you would have two or 3 pens a game and free kicks all over the pitch. No, there must be intent to gain an advantage from handling. It's the interpretation that needs to be cleared up. For instance a player who slides in to make a block has to put his arms somewhere. He cannot remove them from his body temporarily. It's becoming a farce and needs clarity. | |
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| Handball or not. on 09:35 - Oct 30 with 2320 views | johnlangy |
| Handball or not. on 23:08 - Oct 28 by swancity |
Nonsense. Cole had his back to the swans player. And it should matter about intent as that is what the rule book says. The referee association need to review it, it's becoming farcical. Players will be jumping to head a ball away at set pieces with arms at their sides soon. |
If intent is what the rule says why did he give a free kick against Leon a few minutes earlier. Leon was facing the player but his hands were down by his side (at thigh level) and the guy kicked the ball at him from two yards and the ref gave a free kick.
There was no intent by either Leon or Cole to handle the ball. Why different decisions if the rule is as you say ? | | | |
| Handball or not. on 10:09 - Oct 30 with 2304 views | JackFish |
| Handball or not. on 06:44 - Oct 30 by Dr_Winston |
Easiest way to do it is to get rid of the idea of "intent".
If the players arms are outstretched or away from his body, then it's a penalty, regardles of intent. |
Isn't that exactly what the law says now anyway? Intent is interpreted as your arms being away from your body, which makes perfect sense to me. | | | |
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